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Obedient Vs. Brat - 12/25/2007 3:26:51 AM   
Nightlander


Posts: 10
Joined: 5/27/2006
Status: offline 		Here's a story, and a question.

I recently released/de-collared/broke up with a girl I cared for, but who wasn't right for me. She was living with me and endlessly procrastinated, blowing off her chores and duties, though she was utterly obedient when she wanted to experience sub-space. A classic "honeymoon's over" situation. It seemed odd to me that she suddenly seemed to be lazy- I knew that wasn't it, and when I put my foot down, she'd cry and tell me she'd do anything for me, anything. (in case you're curious, she was between jobs, and had a fairly light set of duties)

Yet, with adequate time, she's still blow off her duties. This kind of thing is a quandry for a Dom, because, if she's just attempting to get me to punish her, then she's calling the shots, and that is not the game I play. But if I don't punish her, then she gets away with disobedience. Given the situation, I did what I felt was best. I told her that she was failing me, I shamed her by doing the chore myself (she cried every time), I stopped "punishing" her (the punishment she wanted) and I witheld sex/scenes from her, (a punishment that she didn't want), and, though I did care for her, I knew the relationship was broken. I started planning her move out of the house.

To some of you, this might sound harsh, but she came into my life to make my life easier. I wanted a partner to back me up, and I'd back her up. This was supposed to be symbiotic. I would support her going to school, if she'd work part time. I'd enjoy commanding her- after the dishes were washed. Duty before pleasure. Instead, I was being drained.

Before she left, it got emotional and nasty. I always felt she was goading me. Her behavior often made me angry, which once again put me in a quandry. I don't punish when I'm angry. I feel that crosses the line into abuse. (IMHO a temper is something a Dom/me should be ashamed of, though to act angry, in a scene, is fine if it serves a purpose)

Well, it didn't last. Which is fine. Better to be alone than to be with the wrong person. But I wanted to figure out what went wrong. So, I spoke to a friend of mine who is a therapist. It was explained to me very simply: She was looking for someone to rebel against. (which makes a lot of sense because of things I know about her childhood) She wasn't looking for someone to serve.

I don't blame her. Deep down, many of us don't really know our motivations. But, even knowing that humans are not perfect, this behavior, which started very soon after she moved in, actually shocked me. I've been in...let's say four- significantly BDSM relationships. (before the latest)

Three of these relationships were with girls who would visit, and surrender, and do as I said, with only minor disobedience, just enough for a fun spanking, or a wresting match, or...

Any of these three would gladly cook me breakfast, or bathe me, or mop the floor in the nude, if I told them to do so. With a smile.

The fourth girl would immediately do as I said, and was so obedient, she desired to serve me so much, that when left alone at my house, would actually clean and polish and mop on her own. (Note that household chores were only a small part of what I did with my girls, my scenes were far more likely to involve naked, leashed walks in the woods.)

So- the question. I know some girls like to explore, some girls live to serve, and some girls need to rebel, to fight, to be brats, to challenge. Which are you, and why? I am curious how many girls lean which way. And if you rebel, what do you get out of it? I look forward to reading anything you've got to share.

N.
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Obedient Vs. Brat - 12/25/2007 3:55:18 AM   
eyesopened


Posts: 2798
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Tampa, FL
Status: offline 		i will answer this with another story:

i was with a Dominant some years ago.  He would make rules, i would obey and then he would change the rules.  He had a rule that when at home i could never sit with my skirt covering my behind but in public places i could sit on my skirt because one never knows what nastiness might be on a public bench.  i sat on a public bench on my skirt and was told i was a bad girl and would need to be punished!  i was constantly crying because i felt like i could do nothing right.  If i followed his rules, he would find any little thing wrong....i wasn't quick enough or i didn't smile when i said 'Sir' and on and on.

One day we sat down to discuss this and he explained that he liked to spank and punish but could only do so as part of a 'senario' meaning he had to feel he had a reason to punish.  i countered that as Dominant he could spank or flog whenever he wished just for his own pleasure or amusement.  He couldn't, he needed the "reason".   An obedient submissive was not any fun for him, and didn't provide him with the kind of release he needed.  He even offered to teach me, train me, to mess up so that he could get his release and he could teach me to crave the pain so that in effect i would become a SAM.

i smiled sadly and told him we simply were not compatible and that was the end of that relationship.

If i were going to play armchair phycholigist i would think that challenging authority is a necessary developmental step to leaving ones parents and living on ones own.  Maybe some never could challenge their parents and visit that upon other authority figures or maybe they think that is normal response to all authority.   Just a thought.  Some people, like me, are praise junkies and i also need to know there is someone else in charge, i need the authority figure.  i have stopped trying to figure out why i am the way i am. 

_____________________________

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(in reply to Nightlander)
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RE: Obedient Vs. Brat - 12/25/2007 4:20:19 AM   
NakedGirlScout


Posts: 370
Joined: 1/10/2006
From: Toronto
Status: offline 		I do rebel, but I don't plan to and I have little control over it when it happens. I figure it's left-over baggage from my childhood and it is getting better. Master has had to be both patient and involved in getting me to this point. A person might procrastinate doing things because of depression or other matters. Or there really are some people who get off on being "forced" to do any lil thing. Or they're lazy and not worth trying to fix. A long and honest conversation might draw out which type of person you're working with.

(in reply to eyesopened)
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RE: Obedient Vs. Brat - 12/25/2007 5:44:02 AM   
rubberpet


Posts: 1743
Joined: 4/6/2006
From: The Land of Voodoo
Status: offline 		I'm the type that mixes things up a bit.  I'm very obedient to Mistress and I cannot recall a single task that was given to me that I didn't accomplish for Her.  Before She and I started talking and getting involved, I told Her that I tend to be a smart-ass who likes to challenge my domme's authority, albeit in a playful, non-disrespectful way.  I told Her that I can be a mischievious brat.  I have a few reasons for why I do this.....

1.)  Even though I know in my heart and soul that I belong to Her completely, I really enjoy it when She "turns on Her dominance" to reign me back in and put me in my place.  I certainly don't "rebel" because I don't believe in Her authority over me.  I do it because of the whole "being broken" fantasy, like breaking a horse so one can ride it.  Voila!!!  Instant subspace, if done correctly.

2.)  I'm just a natural born smart-ass who likes to stir a little controversy.

3.)  When I'm with someone that I can be myself around, I can be silly and goofy at times.  I'm just very playful at heart with my girl.  My brattiness sometimes comes out through that.

But there is definitely a line I draw between being a brat and resuming my duties as Her obedient pet.  If the situation is serious, then I lose the bratty side and the rational, logical man comes out.

_____________________________

Collared and devoted property of Mistress Lorelei (vampchick88) as of 3/26/08.

Rubberpet - The Resident Anti-Subby and mysterious shadowy figure known as Voodoo, proud hitman and wiseguy for the Subby Mafia.


(in reply to NakedGirlScout)
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RE: Obedient Vs. Brat - 12/25/2007 6:19:26 AM   
tanna


Posts: 51
Joined: 6/29/2004
Status: offline 		 
It sounds like your girl didn't have something straight in her mind. It could be a remnant from childhood, or it could be the type of kink she is into. There is a group of what some of my friends call 'spankers' who encourage the brats so that they can spank them.  So, simply stated.. Your kink and her kink didn't match.

(in reply to Nightlander)
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RE: Obedient Vs. Brat - 12/25/2007 6:19:54 AM   
Manawyddan


Posts: 701
Joined: 1/2/2005
From: Petaluma (Northern California)
Status: offline 		Sympathies to both Nightlander and eyesopened.

NL, you didn't sound harsh at all to me. Even by vanilla standards, that was a crashingly unsuccessful relationship. Her utter brattiness, I would venture, seems less a problem than her apparent lack of self-awareness. I hope for her sake (not to mention the sake of other men who encounter her in the future) that she eventually figures out what sort of relationship she really wants.

eo, what you describe is about as opposite as it is possible to be from the way I conceive of D/s relationships. I know there are people who play like that. and I am glad they enjoy themselves, but it makes no emotional sense to me.

_____________________________

_______________________________________________
"She always had a terrific sense of humor"
(Valerie Solonas, as described by her mother)
_______________________________________________

(in reply to rubberpet)
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RE: Obedient Vs. Brat - 12/25/2007 6:23:22 AM   
tanna


Posts: 51
Joined: 6/29/2004
Status: offline 		I know exactly what you're talking about on this point too. A Dominant that I was seeing seemed to take great pleasure in cooking up all these elaborate punishments to dish out to me if I misbehaved. Since I didn't misbehave on purpose then it just wasn't as much fun for him and he eventually broke things off.   I think that is just the type of kink some folks are into.

(in reply to eyesopened)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Obedient Vs. Brat - 12/25/2007 6:42:34 AM   
LittleWench


Posts: 265
Joined: 11/27/2007
Status: offline 		I am a SAM, which turns into brattiness (defiant) when I feel like I have been goaded into anger.  In my opinion anger comes about when feeling something else, and we don't know how to express it so we get angry.  Feeling that something is unfair or unjust, feeling hurt over this, is a common cause of anger, and not knowing how to express that we become outraged or indignified.  I think every time I have become angry at my Owner it has been because he has made an unfair judgement or assessment about my actions and rather than sit down and explain calmly that him thinking that way hurts me I get angry.  Most probably won't agree with my assessment on anger, but each time I have asked myself "why do I feel angry" the underlying cause is something like that could be dealt with via simple communication.  I think anger is the ugliest emotion, immature and childish, I don't like facing the anger of others and I don't like feeling it myself.

We are working on losing the brattiness, but we spoke yesterday and he was very clear that he never wishes me to lose the smart arse attitude.  He says it is part of who I am and wouldn't want a sub without spirit.

Unless I am angry, I am typically very obedient.  Sometimes I will make him ask twice, but that's because it turns me on, the way he asks, seeing him dominant.  It's part of my kink, being told what to do and relinquishing control, so it makes no sense for me to be disobedient.  I don't need to act up to get the good punishments I only need to indicate that is what I need and I am taken care of.  Obedience is only difficult for me when it dents my pride.  Yesterday I wanted a cigar something which I must ask permission for and he said I had to ask for it in a particular way.  First off it's hard enough for me to ask for anything I want, so I had quite used up my pride with the simple act of asking at all.  Then being told I had to play act, and ask in a certain manner, I tried to dodge around it and procrastinated asking for a further 5 minutes before finally choking out the words.  That's just my ego being stupid, and usually only comes out when its a "IF you want this THEN you will" type scenario rather than a direct "Pet do this" command.  It's because I grapple with what is more important, my pride or receiving the treat I must ask for.  Weird that something so small is so humiliating for me.

Oh and welcome to CM Nightlander. 

(in reply to rubberpet)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Obedient Vs. Brat - 12/25/2007 7:06:54 AM   
TethersEnd


Posts: 102
Joined: 1/29/2007
Status: offline 		All in all I ~think~ I'm well behaved.  Then again I have not had ton's of opportunity to prove that right or wrong. 
When I look at the few times that I have had that opportunity a few thoughts come to mind. 

I can honestly say that I have never been punished for an act I did.  I have felt the need to be a brat and have
instigated with the desired result being a punishment, knowing full well I was manipulating from the bottom. 
(i say this while looking at the punishment as a form of play, not just to be bad) 
If I have moved into a place of failing tasks I was asked to do, it was due to giving up, knowing the relationship
had a major flaw that could not be over come. 

Considering my lack of punishment, I often wonder if I choose to spend time with others who ask little of me. 

(in reply to tanna)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Obedient Vs. Brat - 12/25/2007 7:15:04 AM   
chellekitty


Posts: 3923
Joined: 3/27/2005
Status: offline 		well, i have to get this out of the way....i hate it when rude, disrespectful, and disobedient people use the word "brat" in any form to excuse their behavior....its inexcusable... that is being childish and i have no problem with kicking those people to the curb myself, here let me pack their bags for them....

when i am a brat i am child-like...which is a whole lot different...i am actually cute and playful, and it is the right time and the right place...and with the right person...sometimes it is never appropriate with certain people...and being a brat is not mutually excusive of being obedient...you just have to, as rubber pet mentioned, know when it is time to resume your duty as an obedient pet/submissive/slave/insert s-type here...and when its time to be the playful, smart assed brat...if you can't tell the difference, you probably have more serious issues than we can help you with on these boards...

chelle


_____________________________

One thing I know: the only ones among you who will be really happy are those who will have sought and found how to serve. ~Albert Schweitzer

(in reply to LittleWench)
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RE: Obedient Vs. Brat - 12/25/2007 7:17:32 AM   
KatyLied


Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline
quote:

Considering my lack of punishment, I often wonder if I choose to spend time with others who ask little of me.


Or you are choosing partners whom it is easy to submit to.
Submission shouldn't be a test of wills between the D and s partner.  If it is, something is wrong.
I've had my own rebellion/struggle with things, but I generally find a way through it.  And having a partner who understands how you work through things can make a difference when being considered "bratty" or "difficult".


_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to TethersEnd)
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RE: Obedient Vs. Brat - 12/25/2007 8:27:07 AM   
IrishMist


Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

So- the question. I know some girls like to explore, some girls live to serve, and some girls need to rebel, to fight, to be brats, to challenge. Which are you, and why? I am curious how many girls lean which way. And if you rebel, what do you get out of it? I look forward to reading anything you've got to share.


I fight it every step; it's not in me to be any other way. I don't fight it though because I am looking to be punished; for me, in the past, punishment was NOT fun, playful, planned, or something to look forward to. It was simply painful, and not in a good way.
As for what I get out of it; control. As backward as that sounds, me, out of control, is not a good thing

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If I said something to offend you, please tell me what it was so that I can say it again later.


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RE: Obedient Vs. Brat - 12/25/2007 8:29:33 AM   
hejira92


Posts: 2272
Joined: 10/27/2005
From: Palm Beach County, Fl
Status: offline 		I serve totally from my need to please Him. The worst punishment I can think of is if I think I have displeased Him.
 
Before me, Master had a girl that He thought He would collar. They had a LD over many months, but when He went out there to meet her, she displayed the "be bratty in order to be punished" behavior. He saw it as topping and refused to play. She told Him He wasn't dominant enough for her. HAH!
 
It was a case of mismatched needs.
 
Master wants a good girl. He says He enjoys doing nasty things because He can and He WANTS to, not because He HAS to.
 
I admit that sometmes I do feel playful and desire to talk back and tease. I am so under His thumb that I ask permission first.
 
(and when left on my own at His place, I have been known to do laundry and clean the bathroom- so unlike me at home. lol.)

_____________________________

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Member:
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(in reply to KatyLied)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Obedient Vs. Brat - 12/25/2007 8:40:23 AM   
xiam


Posts: 148
Joined: 7/1/2007
Status: offline 		I suppose i am only a "brat" if i'm not really interested or if  i feel a certain amount of disrespect for the Dom either through his words or actions.  I'm not into role play so much, so i don't think i need to act out to receive punishment.  If it turns you on to spank me and i get turned on being spanked, then by all means, on with the spanking!

I'm such a softie, really... it gives me pleasure to please and to be pleasing, and i always strive to maintain that in a relationship.

(in reply to KatyLied)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Obedient Vs. Brat - 12/25/2007 8:52:26 AM   
KatyLied


Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline
quote:

it gives me pleasure to please and to be pleasing  i always strive to maintain that in a relationship.


And I do understand that.  And I also prefer to have a peaceful relationship, I don't like a lot of conflict or difficulty, I have enough of that in other parts of my life.  But sometimes hard things are asked and it's difficult to get there immediately, or at least there have been times when that is the case for me.




_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to xiam)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Obedient Vs. Brat - 12/25/2007 9:41:05 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Let me preface my answer with the fact that you would not be happy with me either. I am very domesticated and love taking care of my Daddy, and do things for him without being asked or ordered to whenever I am in his presense... and it is not because I do not live with him or it is the honeymoon stage, I do it because I love him....

I do not exist to make my Daddy's life easier, I desire to make his life easier because I love him... see how that "L" word keeps coming up? For me my "service" is given out of love.

My Daddy's first sub was a sam who intentionally misbehaved to get punished... well Daddy caught on to her game rather early, and because she didn't get what she wanted she released herself. She was a brat.

Now I am not a brat, but like I said, I do not exist to serve him either. He tells me to do things, and I do them immediately. He does not have a chart of household chores for me, and I am rather self directed in that way. He has determined that I am to go to graduate school to please him and because of the service he thinks I should be giving humanity...

About your situation... I read it as perhaps being regretful that you could not figure out how to set it right, and I would be dubious of any therapist that would give advice or diagnose a relationship in email. Perhaps her issue was one of depression and anxiety... because when I procrastinate it is usually because I am anxious about things, or feeling overwhelmed. People that are anxious do not always know what they are anxious about and it can take some pretty strange turns... like feeling unable to accomplish mundane tasks... so your therapist does not sound like he really knows what he is talking about in my opinion.. and before you say that you gave him more info than you are giving us... the only way he could diagnose this behavior is to have her sitting in front of him asking HER questions.. he sounds like a quack to me. ( I say this as someone that has been diagnosed with an anxiety disorder).

In the end, if you were not happy with her, you just were not happy with her and you should move on... but there could be reasons for her behavior that have nothing to do with brattiness



< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 12/25/2007 9:43:41 AM >

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Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Nightlander)
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RE: Obedient Vs. Brat - 12/25/2007 9:48:20 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		The key for me is to be a POSITIVE and productive challenge in their lives.

When you learn the balance between wit and grace, being BOTH spirited and obedient, being BOTH enjoyed and submissive- then you've got it made.

Too many try and say you can't have both- you either have to be spunky OR a doormat.  You have to be witty OR dull.

Learning to be witty with grace, that's what it's about for me.


http://www.collarchat.com/m_997593/mpage_1/key_brat/tm.htm#997865
brat?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_480396/mpage_4/key_brat/tm.htm#485762
What's your definition of "bratty submissive"?

http://www.collarchat.com/tm.asp?m=316437&mpage=1&key=brat&#316452
Not a slave...a bratty subbie

http://www.collarchat.com/tm.asp?m=256345&mpage=1&key=brat&#256683
The "B" word

http://www.collarchat.com/m_741744/mpage_1/key_brat/tm.htm#741775
what is a brat?


_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to Nightlander)
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RE: Obedient Vs. Brat - 12/25/2007 10:13:41 AM   
lronitulstahp


Posts: 5392
Joined: 10/17/2007
Status: offline
quote:

     Just a thought.  Some people, like me, are praise junkies and i also need to know there is someone else in charge, i need the authority figure.  i have stopped trying to figure out why i am the way i am. 
  Gosh i love that..."praise junkie, that's exactly how i should describe myself, thanks.  i suppose on the other side, we have "admonishment junkies". 

(in reply to eyesopened)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Obedient Vs. Brat - 12/25/2007 11:52:49 AM   
Nightlander


Posts: 10
Joined: 5/27/2006
Status: offline 		Wow,

I was expecting a couple of replies, not seventeen. Thanks everyone, for what's been written so far. Very informative. I like this site, if this is the kind of feedback I can get.

The replies I got raise some more questions.

I have enjoyed...how to say this...I could throw out words like strict, or casual or free-form, but that wouldn't be right. This is a question about when dominance kicks in. I've enjoyed several kinds of realationships-

1: Mostly vanilla, until I exert my dominance, usually after a date, or when we're alone (anywhere from a road trip to a hike). That is definitely not slavery, but submission.

2: She immediately referred to me as "Master" any time we were alone, and when we were together, even in public, I'd give her subtle commands. I've done this both in a dating situation, and 24/7.

3: A relationship where we played at specific times, doing scenes, but, other than that, not even a hint of submission from her. I think submission did not come easily to her, and she could only enjoy it in a fantasy context.

I'd like to hear about your expectations from your relationships, and how much of this was discussed/arranged, versus "organic".

N.

(in reply to lronitulstahp)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Obedient Vs. Brat - 12/25/2007 12:02:12 PM   
OsideGirl


Posts: 14441
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nightlander
I know some girls like to explore, some girls live to serve, and some girls need to rebel, to fight, to be brats, to challenge. Which are you, and why? 
I'm none of these and all of these. I like to explore...sometimes. I love to serve....sometimes it's a challenge for me. Sometimes I rebel. Sometimes I fight. Sometimes I'm a playful brat. And I'm always a challenge, because I require a Dom that can keep me intellectually entertained.
quote:

 And if you rebel, what do you get out of it?
Usually, nothing except insight into myself. My rebellions are typically knee jerk reactions that hit a nerve. Which is usually true of most people. It gives us all a moment to go "Whoa, where did that come from?"

_____________________________

Give a girl the right shoes and she will conquer the world. ~ Marilyn Monroe

The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

(in reply to Nightlander)
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