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RE: permanent damage - 12/26/2007 8:45:32 PM   
TheScrivener


Posts: 91
Joined: 8/11/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

quote:

A submissive with interests in breath play, suspension, and blood play would be more likely to suffer permanent injury than a submissive who was generally interested in bondage and playing dress-up.

Really now?

And on what do you base your knowledge here?


It's a general assumption.  I enjoy exploring breath play myself, so I don't mean to say that these forms of play are inherently reckless or foolish, if it came across that way.

The point I'd make is that an inexperienced couple playing around with silk scarves and a maid outfit are probably (not certainly) less likely to sustain permanent damage than an inexperienced couple playing around with a knife.  With the right amount of experience and caution, I don't think there's anything too dangerous about any form of play.

It was just a general statement.  Bondage was a bad example, as there are concerns in regards to circulation, duration, and positioning.  As a counter to my own statement, you can get hurt doing most anything if you aren't careful.  I once managed to get the tip of...myself, caught in the zipper of a pair of pants, while scening.  Not.  Fun.

No need to whip out the flamethrower, I burn easily!


- Eric

< Message edited by TheScrivener -- 12/26/2007 8:49:37 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 21
RE: permanent damage - 12/26/2007 8:53:57 PM   
Daddysredhead


Posts: 23574
Joined: 11/6/2005
From: Northern (yet still part of the South) Virginia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheScrivener

With the right amount of experience and caution, I don't think there's anything too dangerous about any form of play.



WHAT???

quote:



No need to whip out the flamethrower, I burn easily!

- Eric


Too late, I'm afraid...

_____________________________

Founding Member, Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair-a's

Do not challenge me to a battle of wits & come to fight unarmed.

Are you really that stupid? ~ Bless your heart

13th doughnut


(in reply to TheScrivener)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: permanent damage - 12/26/2007 8:59:48 PM   
TheScrivener


Posts: 91
Joined: 8/11/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Daddysredhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheScrivener

With the right amount of experience and caution, I don't think there's anything too dangerous about any form of play.



WHAT???



Notice the word "too".

Something that is too dangerous, to me, is something I won't do based upon excessive risk or sanitary concerns (IE - Scat - not that I have any interest in that to begin with.  Ick.)


_____________________________

"We are the facilitators of our own creative evolution."

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Profile   Post #: 23
RE: permanent damage - 12/26/2007 9:04:33 PM   
Daddysredhead


Posts: 23574
Joined: 11/6/2005
From: Northern (yet still part of the South) Virginia
Status: offline 		I noticed every word, including the word "too."  I'm just glad that you are keeping your statements with a personal disclaimer as the majority of practitioners of WIITWD would not agree with you and your assumptions.

Just sayin'...

_____________________________

Founding Member, Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair-a's

Do not challenge me to a battle of wits & come to fight unarmed.

Are you really that stupid? ~ Bless your heart

13th doughnut


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Profile   Post #: 24
RE: permanent damage - 12/26/2007 9:13:21 PM   
TheScrivener


Posts: 91
Joined: 8/11/2007
Status: offline 		Understood. 

I'm not saying they aren't dangerous, even if you know what you're doing, just that they are safe enough to perform.  Something can always go wrong - no exceptions.  If someone told me that BDSM was completely safe and harmless, "WHAT???" would be the appropriate reaction. 

Risk vs. Reward.



< Message edited by TheScrivener -- 12/26/2007 9:23:24 PM >

_____________________________

"We are the facilitators of our own creative evolution."

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Profile   Post #: 25
RE: permanent damage - 12/26/2007 9:17:24 PM   
Leatherist


Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheScrivener

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daddysredhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheScrivener

With the right amount of experience and caution, I don't think there's anything too dangerous about any form of play.



WHAT???



Notice the word "too".

Something that is too dangerous, to me, is something I won't do based upon excessive risk or sanitary concerns (IE - Scat - not that I have any interest in that to begin with.  Ick.)



no.

We who do this refer to it as risk management.

Which means we take basic steps. We negotiate the risks in advance. We decide if they are worth taking and consent to them if we decide that they are. And we also take steps to see that it can be stopped in time if it begins to go wrong.

If these are in place it becomes safer.
 
But are always present,and must be taken into account as such.

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I'm not taking custom orders.

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RE: permanent damage - 12/26/2007 9:18:45 PM   
Daddysredhead


Posts: 23574
Joined: 11/6/2005
From: Northern (yet still part of the South) Virginia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheScrivener

If someone told me that BDSM was completely safe and harmless, "WHAT???" would be the appropriate reaction.



And that's ok bc it's you and your response. 

For me, WHAT??? was the appropriate reaction.  Thank you and have a nice night. 



_____________________________

Founding Member, Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair-a's

Do not challenge me to a battle of wits & come to fight unarmed.

Are you really that stupid? ~ Bless your heart

13th doughnut


(in reply to TheScrivener)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: permanent damage - 12/26/2007 9:35:59 PM   
astarri


Posts: 265
Joined: 4/22/2007
Status: offline 		are we only including physical risks here? i believe that the inexperienced could cause psychological harm unintentionally and i suspect on varying degree this happens more frequently ... though that is just my opinion 

(in reply to OldBastardly1)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: permanent damage - 12/26/2007 9:47:55 PM   
Leatherist


Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: astarri

are we only including physical risks here? i believe that the inexperienced could cause psychological harm unintentionally and i suspect on varying degree this happens more frequently ... though that is just my opinion 


If there is a problem, say something. You get what you put up with.

_____________________________

My shop is currently segueing into production mode.

I'm not taking custom orders.

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Profile   Post #: 29
RE: permanent damage - 12/26/2007 10:50:22 PM   
astarri


Posts: 265
Joined: 4/22/2007
Status: offline 		Agreed though unfortunately once that line has been crossed you cant just hop over it. I was simply pointing out that damage can be done in others ways as well 

(in reply to Leatherist)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: permanent damage - 12/27/2007 3:35:49 AM   
chellekitty


Posts: 3923
Joined: 3/27/2005
Status: offline 		Eric...the thing is, fairly responsible people (and most of us on the board would like to think of ourselves as so) will not engage in an advanced form of play without knowing all the safety risks and the precautions and how to mitigate the damage, should there be any...and fairly irresponsible people will not pick up those advanced forms of play because their ego will not allow them to because they cannot control it...we are, after all, talking "just" about permanent injury here, not the ulitmmate, irreversable injury - death, i presume...

so those "fairly" irresponsible people will do less "advanced" forms of play like bondage with silk scarves or metal hand cuffs and cause nerve damage in the wrists, or spank their partners with an inappropriate instrument that leave scars or maybe even actually break a bone...

and btw, we like our play dangerous....thats why we do it...we are aware of the risks and we do it anyway....don't try and take it away from us...

take care...
chelle


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Profile   Post #: 31
RE: permanent damage - 12/27/2007 3:36:44 AM   
IrishMist


Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

It's a general assumption.  I enjoy exploring breath play myself, so I don't mean to say that these forms of play are inherently reckless or foolish, if it came across that way.

It is NOT a general assumption; and you would do well to remember that.

I love breath play; I love blood play, I love knife play....yes, there have been accidents...but I would be more likely to REALLY be injured if someone tied me up because that...I DO NOT LIKE.
quote:

  The point I'd make is that an inexperienced couple playing around with silk scarves and a maid outfit are probably (not certainly) less likely to sustain permanent damage than an inexperienced couple playing around with a knife.  With the right amount of experience and caution, I don't think there's anything too dangerous about any form of play.


Nice ass cover. Using inexperienced only. Despite that; your ASSUMPTIONS are still way off base.
quote:

It was just a general statement. 

It was not just a general statement.
quote:

  No need to whip out the flamethrower, I burn easily!


Perhaps next time then, you will remember that YOU burn easily and stay home instead of coming outside to play with those who aren't afraid of a little fire.

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Profile   Post #: 32
RE: permanent damage - 12/27/2007 3:38:51 AM   
julietsierra


Posts: 1841
Joined: 9/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: undinerising

quote:

ORIGINAL: julietsierra

1 in 100, 1 in 1,000,000... doesn't mean a lot unless of course, you're the 1.
THAT'S what everyone is afraid of.
And out of curiousity, in an activity that is largely hidden from view, hence, not necessarily countable, or at the very least no one is aware if the statistics would be correct anyhow, just what kind of response were you hoping for except for the comment about being the 1?

juliet


The difficulty would be ensuring accurate reporting and suitable sample sizes. This isn't the sort of thing people like to fess up to- I mean, imagine it. 'Yeah I scened once with whatshisname, and now he's permanently injured, my bad, wanna play?'
It isn't information that's commonly well-received and hence isn't often shared as far as I can tell.



yep... that's why I asked what I did..

juliet

(in reply to undinerising)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: permanent damage - 12/27/2007 3:40:20 AM   
julietsierra


Posts: 1841
Joined: 9/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kitttty

I'd say he's an angel, but he's so devilish.


Hey, the devil WAS an angel who just didn't like the rules. It works!

juliet

(in reply to kitttty)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: permanent damage - 12/27/2007 9:34:05 AM   
sweettartare


Posts: 7
Joined: 7/2/2007
Status: offline 		Personal experience: I have a nice scar over my (R) breast due to an abscess I got after a self needle play session. Had to have two surgeries to get all the bad tissue removed. It was my own fault.

2nd hand info: I attended a demo at BR on knife play and the person conducting it told of cutting someone not on purpose and it leaving a scar. She helped with the demo and showed the scar. Not big, but there.

I believe that we're all responsible for ourselves. Yes, things do happen....  we assess the risks and decide wether we want to participate.

(in reply to julietsierra)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: permanent damage - 12/27/2007 1:09:09 PM   
TheScrivener


Posts: 91
Joined: 8/11/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

Perhaps next time then, you will remember that YOU burn easily and stay home instead of coming outside to play with those who aren't afraid of a little fire.


It was a joke.  I'm fair-skinned, so I burn easily.  I've been on message boards before - I'm not going anywhere.  That, and people seemed to be getting really cross in a big hurry, and I didn't intend to cause anything like that.

Bondage in any form was a bad example.  And yes, what I've stated are my own assumptions, based upon my own experiences and thoughts.  I'm 21, I'm inexperienced, and I'm on this site to learn from others as much as anything else.

I don't know why saying that people are probably more likely to get hurt playing with sharp & pointy things than other things caused such a ruckus, but hey.  Live and learn.

I'm not trying to take anything away from anyone.  My apologies if somehow that message came across in what I've typed.

- Eric






< Message edited by TheScrivener -- 12/27/2007 1:10:47 PM >

_____________________________

"We are the facilitators of our own creative evolution."

- Bill Hicks


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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: permanent damage - 12/27/2007 1:30:30 PM   
topcat


Posts: 1675
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Tidewater, VA
Status: offline 		The worst injury that I have personally seen was a Dominant who caught his finger in a folding bondage frame made of black pipe- he lost the use of his last joint on his left index finger. After that, it's a tie between a submissive who has some permanant nerve damage due to a bad tie- numb hand to this day, and a Domminant  who broke her toe when a weighed nipple clamp fell off.
 
And while it wasn't permanent, I once had a takedown/rape scene that wound up with her shoulder dislocated, and my rib broken (which we both though was kinda cool, especially for a first date<g> ).
 
Lawrence

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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: permanent damage - 12/27/2007 1:53:31 PM   
LadyHugs


Posts: 2299
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Dear OldBastardly1, Ladies and Gentlemen;
 
I have to agree with the posters thus far, in saying that it would be impossible to get an accurate total as far as numbers go.  There are those who might fear to admit there have been accidents in addition to those comments and observations made already.
 
Ignorance, arrogance, pride, ego, assumptions and presumptions often are associated with accidents and at times permanent damage is the result and or collateral damage from something indirectly.
 
A good many accidents that may/can result in permanent damage might be from no fault of either party and is just an equipment failure, such as a bolt, a frame, a support beam, a screw and on and on.  It is easy to assume as one couple leaves a bondage furnature piece it will be sound.  It might be on the edge of failure.  Not always do people really inspect these pieces due to time and the rush to get in and out of a scene so others can play.  Some flaws are invisible as its the internal weakness that can't be seen and snaps in its own in its own sweet time--nobody could tell with an external inspection. 
 
Where my personal concerns are, they are the permanent damage nobody can see--its the harbored inside a person's injury that is the most damaging.
 
I would love to see people really research and practice along side others in technical skills as well as 'relationship' and 'communicating' skills.  There are no real 'cookie cutter' templates that give all the answers to things however, communication is a huge element that is a part of dealing with others in relationships and or from a technical aspects.  Jane's pain handling might be at 6 where Betty's is at 2 and Marie's is at 10 and the Dom/TOP might be applying the same for them all; techniques, whips and such.  But, it is the 'guts' of how one acquires their knowledge and skills that is just as important and to be able to inform the slave/sub/bottom so they can make better and informed choices.  Yes, the slave/sub/bottom often has to be their own white knight per se, in finding out for themselves what risks are present, what might/could/would/can/will/may happen. However, Dominants should know what they pose as far as what may/will/can/would/could/might happen if they do this or that, and or A, B and Z.  In this, a Dominant can help a person understand what risks there might/will be and make a choice where before, they hadn't a clue.
 
I would like to see TOPS/Dominants to be more anatomy aware and understand how things can go wrong in bondage, whip work and the like. Concerns go way past the skin level for me.
And, I'm always looking for medical changes within the scene practices, techniques and such.  Via the Internet and a better networking system; sharing 'findings' of techniques from years past and the long term affects/effects have changed many things from what was deemed safe in the 1970's and not safe today.  One example, besides STDs and such; its been found by those who have engaged in drinking urine, that it has lead to the destruction of tooth enamal--as often cases Masters wouldn't allow the slave to swallow right away, chase it with water and or brush their teeth, floss and mouth wash.  So, such behaviors not immediately manifested 'permanent damage' have caused permanent damage down the road.
 
I would like to see, those who are eager to try something new be patient with their new found skill and gradually increase the time perfecting it.  Practice, practice and more practice.  Being too eager, sometimes things get out of hand and then mistakes are made and then injuries and on and on.  I don't like going beyond my skill levels on a person and not have lots of hours practicing on a sewing form or some other item.  Then, few strokes at a session added on and upwards into a lengthy scene.  But, again --that is just my own methods.
 
This is where self imposed responsibilities come in.  Being responsible as well as accountable for what we (in general) do.  Understanding responsibilities is very important as well as the responsibilities to the other person.
 
Just some thoughts.
 
Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs

(in reply to OldBastardly1)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: permanent damage - 12/27/2007 2:54:31 PM   
Guilty1974


Posts: 467
Joined: 11/2/2005
From: Den Haag
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheScrivener

A submissive with interests in breath play, suspension, and blood play would be more likely to suffer permanent injury than a submissive who was generally interested in bondage and playing dress-up.


Concerning bondage, more likely, maybe, not necessarily. Suspension is definately a dangerous thing to attempt, but nerve injury is just as possible while staying on the floor. And while suspension is way more dangerous, my feeling tells me that most people doing it are aware of the dangers, while I see lots of people who think "normal" bondage is just a harmless introduction to BDSM. I wouldn't be surprised if most bondage accidents are non-suspension related.

From personal experience: The one time I myself caused a (fortunately not permanent) nerve injury that was with a floor bondage, not with a suspension rig.

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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: permanent damage - 12/27/2007 2:56:59 PM   
Guilty1974


Posts: 467
Joined: 11/2/2005
From: Den Haag
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheScrivener

The point I'd make is that an inexperienced couple playing around with silk scarves and a maid outfit are probably (not certainly) less likely to sustain permanent damage than an inexperienced couple playing around with a knife.


Except for the fact that silk scarves are a very dangerous bondage material. When rolled up they tend to put all pressure on a very small area. I consider rope to be a lot safer. Never assume that what looks harmless is harmless.

(in reply to TheScrivener)
Profile   Post #: 40
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