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RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/28/2007 9:03:34 AM

SeeksOnlyOne

Posts: 2012
Joined: 5/14/2007
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i am much stronger now.......beating that demon made me stronger, and having buried my mom 7 years ago come jan 2nd, i find anything i have to face these days pretty easy in comparison.

if i start feeling stressed or unable to cope, i just think it aint panic and ya aint burying ya momma again....get over it-this is easy shit to deal with.

it works for me....course i aint right i am told(luckily the folks that tell me this also love me)

well at least the ones that say it to my face

_____________________________

it aint no good til it hurts just a little bit....jimmy somerville

in those moments of solitude, does everyone sometimes think they are insane? or is it just me?

(in reply to OldBastardly1)

Post #: 101

RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/28/2007 9:14:28 AM

ownedgirlie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I have gotten to a point in my life, if I was ever dating and someone told me the line, " I do not want you to need me, only want me"... I would run. I spent my entire adult life getting to the place where I admitted I had needs, needed to need, and embraced that as a good and healthy thing. Going back to not needing someone, it would be regressing to me

Bravo! It has been so liberating for me to finally drop the external facad of saying I can get through this life all on my own without needing anyone. I think when people see the word "need" they automatically equate it with a hyperclingy, unhealthy entity. Au contrar! Does it have to be "need" OR "want?" Why can't it be both? I need to function as a slave to be true to myself. I need to express that slavery within me to HIM in order to thrive. I don't want to just function; I want to thrive. I want to take life by the horns and run with it, and know that I can accomplish anything (anything within my abilities, of course!). I want to belong to him because I absolutely adore him and think he's a rather cool person whose life I love being in and whose life I love affecting. I need to belong to him because my inner truth tells me when I'm at his feet I can reach the stars.

I have no desire to be so proud as to not need to serve and please him. And he has said he has no use for a slave who doesn't need to be here. So for us it's a matched set. As long as the way I express such need is appropriate and healthy, we both prefer me to need him than not.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 102

RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/28/2007 9:37:05 AM

Rushemery

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those are the needs that are important, I am unsure how to write them though. There has to be something more than M/s, control and sex and the basic's something more something deep, like your first true love---cant explain it

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 103

RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/28/2007 9:37:58 AM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SeeksOnlyOne

~FR~

to me, needing someone means i could not exist without them. i need oxygen. i thought i needed my ex husband, and was sure the day he left i would shrivel up and die.

but i didnt die. i became stronger than i have even been in my life. i could never go back to the mindset of needing another human being for my happiness. my happiness and contentment is within me. and i will always keep it there....i feel it is my responsibility to feed it and keep it healthy. the thought of handing that responsibility to someone else just does not work. for me.

i need to know that no matter what, i will be ok, alone or with someone. that is the only way i am capable of giving all i have to someone else....knowing that if the relationship ends, i will be all right, and somehow richer for the experiences we had.

for me, thats how it is.

I wanted to comment on this because it resonated something within me. I had a really unhealthy need for my ex husband, who was very emotionally abusive. Only I was in such a poor mental state I did not recognize the abuse for what it was. And while I had an unhealthy need for him, there was a voice deep inside me that kept niggling at me to get out, get out, get out. I finally did, and after learning how to function again (I had been brought to a state of not trusting my thoughts and feelings anymore), I have become strong, smart, and spiritual again.

My Master taught me to learn myself, love myself, and respect myself. It seems the more I submit to him the more independently I am able to live. Clear as mud? :) I mentioned before this experience I have of feeling his presence in me and of having his teachings in me at all times. It's a much different need now than the unhealthy one I experienced in the past. It's a need I very much enjoy and embrace.

I say this because I once expressed that need to a friend who didn't understand, and unfortunately it ultimately cost us the friendship. Likely I didn't know how to express it very well, but it is my strong belief that if one were to remove all traces of my Master from my life - meaning, take away his presence within me, take away all he has taught me, take away all he has brought me to be, I would not only cease to thrive, but cease to function.

He and I have had numerous rather heavy discussions about what's to come after he dies. Knowing I can still thrive because of what he has placed in me is a comfort to us both. His presence won't leave me after his life ends. And that is what I have come to need - the person, the Master, that he is to me. It is the most fulfilling need I have experienced.

(in reply to SeeksOnlyOne)

Post #: 104

RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/28/2007 9:44:15 AM

ownedgirlie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rushemery

those are the needs that are important, I am unsure how to write them though. There has to be something more than M/s, control and sex and the basic's something more something deep, like your first true love---cant explain it

When I have seen people say "I want to be with him; I don't need to be with him" (paraphrased, as a general comment I have seen from many people over time), I do not understand it. I must not understand it, because such a dynamic would be unfulfilling to me - it depicts in my mind a somewhat sterile, unemotional and detached relationship, and I can't imagine anyone being fulfilled in such. So I know I must not be seeing something behind the words because those words do not convey to me an emotional or spiritual connection of a depth I would prefer. I wonder if those who say that are afraid to need, or are simply rebutting the idea that they have an unhealthy need. Like I said, it is not something I understand, and I would like to.

(in reply to Rushemery)

Post #: 105

RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/28/2007 10:33:48 AM

Mercnbeth

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~ Fast Reply ~

I'm a bit surprised that there is a general negative reaction to being "clingy". It's also eye raising to see the characteristic applied only to the submissive side of the flogger.

I represent I am a clingy dominant. Within my relationship I am a VERY clingy Master. Why is that a bad thing? Should I be in a 12 step program?

I don't find being clingy excludes me from being confident or unable to function alone. I wouldn't want to be around a submissive and surely wouldn't take on a slave unless they had similar confidence and had equal strength and personal self worth. However being together with beth is a preferred state. Shouldn't everyone seeking a broad relationship of some permanence which is inclusive of conversation and activities that don't necessary include/involve/require nudity, or the props of WIITWD, have a similar preference? Is wanting to share conversation and social interaction considered clingy?

Let's not try to define healthy and un-healthy because that becomes an exercises in applying pronouns - "My relationship and interaction is healthy, your's is 'clingy'." Not going there!

If there is an unhealthy aspect it's when self delusion is involved. It is unhealthy if one side of the partnership has unrealistic expectations for the relationship. Similarly expecting success in changing the nature of their partner is an unhealthy expectation. Then there is the unhealthy situation of staying in a relationship full of compromise and rationalization because ultimately you don't like being alone. If you don't like yourself you may cling to someone. Having your sense of value and worth only derived from a relationship may cause you to cling. Should you lack confidence in yourself you can cling to the perceived confidence in another. Lacking a personal identity you can cling to a collective relationship identity. I don't think these situations exist only for submissives. I've observed dominants exhibiting exactly the same rationalized logic to cling to partner; having and fearing similar conditions and results.

Knowing yourself, and ideally, liking yourself is a good foundation and starting point for the goal of a healthy partnership of "cling".

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 106

RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/28/2007 10:42:56 AM

CalifChick

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From: California
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Isn't it funny how one little consonant, and a slight word order change, make such a huge difference in perceptions?

Merc, I would say that you are a Dominant who clings to his sub, and not a clingy Dominant. LOL. Have I lost you yet?

The first is a joining together of two people into a relationship that thrives. The second, to me, describes someone who, when something is slightly different or slightly "off", immediately starts imagining the worst, inventing all sorts of scenarios in their head... such as, if Beth didn't buy fresh coffee beans, do you immediately start thinking "oh no, Beth doesn't love me anymore, I wonder if there is someone else, maybe I have been neglecting her, maybe I have been too harsh, maybe not harsh enough", etc.

Well, maybe the store was just out of beans.

In my view (just so nobody feels compelled to tell me I'm wrong), that is the difference between clinging to each other and "being clingy". LOL.

Cali

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(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 107

RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/28/2007 11:08:13 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rushemery

those are the needs that are important, I am unsure how to write them though. There has to be something more than M/s, control and sex and the basic's something more something deep, like your first true love---cant explain it

When I have seen people say "I want to be with him; I don't need to be with him" (paraphrased, as a general comment I have seen from many people over time), I do not understand it. I must not understand it, because such a dynamic would be unfulfilling to me - it depicts in my mind a somewhat sterile, unemotional and detached relationship, and I can't imagine anyone being fulfilled in such. So I know I must not be seeing something behind the words because those words do not convey to me an emotional or spiritual connection of a depth I would prefer. I wonder if those who say that are afraid to need, or are simply rebutting the idea that they have an unhealthy need. Like I said, it is not something I understand, and I would like to.

I think I see it much the same way. For me such a statement means the opposite of what I think people are trying to say... it is as if I am telling the person that I would tell that to "I could be happy with anyone that demonstrated the qualities that you do, I do not need you, I just want you. If not you, well then someone else will do just as good." I actually had this exact attitude until my Daddy, I learned that there is no one else that can take his place, he is not interchangeable with anyone else. I more than want a relationship with him that is happy and functional, I need it because of who he is. There is no interchangeable person...

Now one day if he was gone from my life for any reason, of course I would go on eventually. I would grieve for him deeply, and somehow I would go on. I have lost people I loved before, and here is the thing I learned from that experience, while you "survive", the hole never gets filled, you never are the same. No matter what, no one ever takes their place... very few people I have loved that deeply.

As far as some of the comments about those who fear abandonment being "unhealthy".... it is like death, we all have abandonment fears just as we are all on some level afraid to die at some point in our lives, even if we have overcome it. Some of us are just more in touch with these fears is all. Like I said, part of the human condition. I found for me personally, it wasn't until I faced the fact I had these fears I was successful in overcoming them. For me, it was unhealthy not to face that.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 108

RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/28/2007 11:13:48 AM

laurell3

Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick

Isn't it funny how one little consonant, and a slight word order change, make such a huge difference in perceptions?

Merc, I would say that you are a Dominant who clings to his sub, and not a clingy Dominant. LOL. Have I lost you yet?

The first is a joining together of two people into a relationship that thrives. The second, to me, describes someone who, when something is slightly different or slightly "off", immediately starts imagining the worst, inventing all sorts of scenarios in their head... such as, if Beth didn't buy fresh coffee beans, do you immediately start thinking "oh no, Beth doesn't love me anymore, I wonder if there is someone else, maybe I have been neglecting her, maybe I have been too harsh, maybe not harsh enough", etc.

Well, maybe the store was just out of beans.

In my view (just so nobody feels compelled to tell me I'm wrong), that is the difference between clinging to each other and "being clingy". LOL.

Cali

I agree and I think now six pages later it's pretty apparent that what people are talking about are all sorts of different definitions of clingy, needing and dependence. If someone feels they need me to tell them how to feel about themselves and the world around them, well, that's not something I'm all that interested in. If they call me 20 times a day, have panic and perceive that something is wrong for every minor thing that happens and need constant attention because they lack the ability to be self-sufficient emotionally, again, I cannot do that.

If someone feels like they need me in their life because the relationship is positive, that's a totally different animal.

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to CalifChick)

Post #: 109

RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/28/2007 11:16:40 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

No need to duck, lol. But, no, I didn't see it as being extremely cathartic. Perhaps I should have been more sensitive, but then, this is a public forum and I didn't realize it was such a tender spot for her. I was expressing what seemed to be logical for me. While I do enjoy tears flowing at certain times, that particular scenario would have squicked me a bit.

As I have said before, I am a simple man and do not express myself as well as some. But if you want to talk Nascar......LOL.

I do not want to beat a dead horse, but you know, someone describes an experience as "beautiful" to them, and that they felt is was a bonding experience, and you could not see that this might be a cathartic experience, or a personal experience?

My aunt died that day, and my son was in ER, and I suppose I was not myself and I wanted to "cling" to my safe place, and Daddy is my safe space... if that squicks you, perhaps you should look within for why someone being emotionally in distress bothers you so...

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to OldBastardly1)

Post #: 110

RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/28/2007 11:23:43 AM

ownedgirlie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

I agree and I think now six pages later it's pretty apparent that what people are talking about are all sorts of different definitions of clingy, needing and dependence.

I think it's good that so many views are being shared (not that I am implying you do not). So often, someone says "Need" or "clingy" and everyone jumps the gun in an assumption that it's time to hit the reject button. "Need" can encompass many levels. It is refreshing to see so many multidimensional opinions expressed in this thread.

< Message edited by ownedgirlie -- 12/28/2007 11:24:10 AM >

(in reply to laurell3)

Post #: 111

RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/28/2007 11:26:32 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

I agree and I think now six pages later it's pretty apparent that what people are talking about are all sorts of different definitions of clingy, needing and dependence.

I think it's good that so many views are being shared (not that I am implying you do not). So often, someone says "Need" or "clingy" and everyone jumps the gun in an assumption that it's time to hit the reject button. "Need" can encompass many levels. It is refreshing to see so many multidimensional opinions expressed in this thread.

And everyone has different needs. It is only when people have trouble functioning in their relationships with many people and they are unhappy that it is "unhealthy" according to psychological experts

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 112

RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/28/2007 11:40:54 AM

ownedgirlie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

And everyone has different needs. It is only when people have trouble functioning in their relationships with many people and they are unhappy that it is "unhealthy" according to psychological experts

Absolutely, especially re: the part I bolded above. That's why it's silly to me that I might decide what someone else's needs should be (particularly if I don't know them)...and they would decide what mine are. I'm sure there are some basic general assumptions that can be made, but even then there are exceptions.

Take the case you stated for yourself. You were sobbing on your Daddy's chest. Now, there were some traumatic things going on for you at the time. In that context, it would appear perfectly normal to cling and cry. If he were just going across the street to the convenient store to pick up milk, it would seem pretty absurd to any bystanders watching you cling and cry. Without knowing what's going on in a person's world and heart and relationship, who can really judge, but the people in that relationship?

When someone posts something on a message board without offering a full explanation of the "behind the scenes goings on", it seems the norm for people to see it in a negative context, although I have no idea why. I have encountered that myself. Rather than ask, "Why were you behaving that way?" it's "Wow, you must be mentally unstable."

Welcome to my wacky world, lol.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 113

RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/28/2007 11:48:56 AM

juliaoceania

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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

If he were just going across the street to the convenient store to pick up milk, it would seem pretty absurd to any bystanders watching you cling and cry.

Who knows, menopause has not arrived yet, I could get that way (shudders in fear).

quote:

Without knowing what's going on in a person's world and heart and relationship, who can really judge, but the people in that relationship?

Take the case you stated for yourself. You were sobbing on your Daddy's chest. Now, there were some traumatic things going on for you at the time. In that context, it would appear perfectly normal to cling and cry. If he were just going across the street to the convenient store to pick up milk, it would seem pretty absurd to any bystanders watching you cling and cry. Without knowing what's going on in a person's world and heart and relationship, who can really judge, but the people in that relationship

I tend to try not to judge what people express was a beautiful thing to them. I am learning more and more not to state I am "squicked" by anything someone else finds to be positive for them. Actually, while I have not been one to go around being squicked at what other people experience much, it was you who taught me a lot about how you have felt when others have expressed that sentiment in regard to things you enjoy/experience.

quote:

Welcome to my wacky world, lol.

At least there is good company there

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 114

RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/28/2007 11:56:29 AM

beargonewild

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From how I view this topic and my interpretation is the fact there is a big difference between needing someone and being "clingy." As humans, we need to need another person, for a sense of personal security, a confidante to express our fears, worries, hopes, desires, etc. My thought that for a submissive personality, this need is more prominant and can be fostered by their dominant partner. Yes, this is a good thing as we try to make our Doms the focus of our lives, yet still retain our own sense of self reliance.
I see someone being clingy as a person who is unable (for whatever reason) to cope with the above mentioned worries, fears, etc. Granted a dom makes sure our needs are taken care of and our wants also yet at their dicretion. As Kyra had stated, a person have many diferent needs outside of the basic needs all us humans need to survive, like food, shelter, etc.
For myself, I need a dom who is able to be as warm and caring and sensitive as I can be at times. I need a dom who also can change my faults into postives when I do not have the necessary ability to do so myself. I would also like to be able to do that same for him also, when it is necessary and desired. To some people this could be seen as me being clingy and insecure, yet I interpret this as a basic human compassion to treat and care for another in the same manner as I desire to be treated.
Yet there is a fine line between what is considered clingy and what isn't. That I believe, is a line which the people in a relationship has to define themselves to apply to their relationship. I can not tell a person they are being clingy towards their Dom because I am not them. I can on see one little part of their relationship, the part they allow me to see into.

< Message edited by beargonewild -- 12/28/2007 11:57:00 AM >

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(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 115

RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/28/2007 12:10:04 PM

CreativeDominant

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I haven't read through all of this thread yet. I do find your question to be very interesting as I have had a couple of girlfriends who were the clingy type and, when I first started in D/s I was dealing with a submissive who became very clingy very quickly. Personally, I like there to be a bit of clingy-ness as it indicates an emotional openness and vulnerability that takes trust to develop. But...there is a difference between "a bit clingy" and being a "creeping vine". While I do encourage some emotional dependance from submissives, I do not want them to see me as the end-all, be-all for their emotional needs. I believe that there is going to be some emotional dependance on both sides of the whip and that is good...but fostering the need for me alone to satisfy all of their emotional needs would end up with me having a submissive who needed me too much for me to be able to go out in the world and do what I need to do.

This is why I disagree...though not completely...with your statement that the very nature of submission encourages emotional dependance. In my world, submission is a yielding of the will and a development of some dependance...which goes along with the development of trust...to/on the dominant.

(in reply to KindLadyGrey)

Post #: 116

RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/28/2007 12:17:14 PM

ownedgirlie

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Thank you for the nice words, juliaoceania. And if we get a big enough group, we can have a wacky-party.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 117

RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/28/2007 1:07:22 PM

SeeksOnlyOne

Posts: 2012
Joined: 5/14/2007
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had a nap and came back to read-i have enjoyed this thread so much.....i get everyones points even.....

i see meatloaf in the background singing his song in different ways now....

i want you, i love you , but there aint no way im ever gonna need you....

i want you , i need you , but there aint no way im ever gonna cling to you.....

i could go on, but i will spare ya'll

heh......

thanks for all the great viewpoints

_____________________________

it aint no good til it hurts just a little bit....jimmy somerville

in those moments of solitude, does everyone sometimes think they are insane? or is it just me?

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 118

RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/28/2007 1:10:58 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SeeksOnlyOne

had a nap and came back to read-i have enjoyed this thread so much.....i get everyones points even.....

i see meatloaf in the background singing his song in different ways now....

i want you, i love you , but there aint no way im ever gonna need you....

i want you , i need you , but there aint no way im ever gonna cling to you.....

i could go on, but i will spare ya'll

heh......

thanks for all the great viewpoints

Edited to say I misunderstood...oops

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 12/28/2007 1:11:36 PM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to SeeksOnlyOne)

Post #: 119

RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/28/2007 1:20:04 PM

SeeksOnlyOne

Posts: 2012
Joined: 5/14/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1
snip
Those people usually are the ones who say they are fine alone. I do not believe for a moment that anyone who is alone actually wants to be so, it is a defense mechanism.
snip

i agreed with most of what you wrote until i got to the part quoted above.

believe for a moment that it is possible to want to be alone, to even need it for some. in my case, i was married my entire adult life, always being the wife, never really having the chance to see what i enjoyed doing....always following him and his interests.

at first, after we separated, i could not imagine being alone. i was terrified. but it was and is so healthy for me. it has made me learn who i am, what makes me tick....and some day, when i do decide to get in to a relationship, i firmly believe it will make me a much better partner than i was before.

having lived alone for a good while now, i actually can not even imagine ever living with someone again. i love being alone at home....my house, my castle.

so there are a few of us that are actually content alone, and have no desires to change that. i may desire to change it in a month or 2, or a year or 2, but for now, it is just what i need and want.

the only defense mechanism's i own that are a result of being alone is 2 pistols, a shotgun and a rifle.

_____________________________

it aint no good til it hurts just a little bit....jimmy somerville

in those moments of solitude, does everyone sometimes think they are insane? or is it just me?

(in reply to sexyred1)

Post #: 120

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