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RE: Transference and D/s - 12/30/2007 6:53:31 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		This is not an academic paper.. now if you can show how the site is flawed in this instance, please do.

Edited to add, I thought you should know it has only been banned as a primary source from several universities... you made it sound as though it was banned via internet from the schools... here is the story

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17740041/


< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 12/30/2007 6:59:40 AM >

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RE: Transference and D/s - 12/30/2007 6:55:56 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Leatherist

I dunno,the idea of being identified with someone's father is kinda squicky to me...........


Prepared to be squicked, most love relationships will eventually have one partner or the other have parental transference...So the likelihood that this has happened in one of your past long term relationships is rather high


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Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Transference and D/s - 12/30/2007 6:57:51 AM   
lauren0221


Posts: 681
Joined: 8/29/2006
Status: offline 		It seems like virtually everything can be either positive or negative.

It's like guns - most people have a strong emotional reaction, but they are harmless piece of  metal until someone picks one up.

If a submissive is working through something in their past through transference, and their Dominant understands and supports this, it's a good thing, yes?

If a submissive is stuck in an old pattern that is not healthy, and the Dominant does not have the tools or skill  to break the pattern, then probably not healthy

If transference strengthens the bond and the relationship, I see it as positive. If it doesn't, then not so much.

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RE: Transference and D/s - 12/30/2007 6:57:59 AM   
Leatherist


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leatherist

I dunno,the idea of being identified with someone's father is kinda squicky to me...........


Prepared to be squicked, most love relationships will eventually have one partner or the other have parental transference...So the likelihood that this has happened in one of your past long term relationships is rather high



ewww..

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RE: Transference and D/s - 12/30/2007 7:01:03 AM   
christine1


Posts: 6155
Joined: 12/15/2007
From: i'm headed to HIM...
Status: offline 		i have been on the recieving end of this exact thing.  after being together for a year, i had a dominant  start making ridiculous demands on me about changing this or that about myself and when he told me he wanted me to weigh 100 lbs i knew something was up.  it would be very unhealthy for me to weigh that little but he was requiring it of me anyway...finally i got it out of him that this is what his mother had weighed when he was a kid.  the relationship went downhill fast after that and i gave him back his collar and left.  i couldn't and wouldn't be his sub and a mother figure to him at the same time....the only mother figure i am is to my own children, not any grown man.

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RE: Transference and D/s - 12/30/2007 7:08:02 AM   
Padriag


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Joined: 3/30/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I think it might even be more telling to think of Daddy/girl relationships in this context... what do you all think?

Yes it happens.  It depends very much on the individual but personally I think virtually everyone, submissive or dominant, does this to some degree.  Keep in mind that much of how we perceive our environment (including the people in it) is colored by past experience.  This is a necessary thing, the world presents us with far too much information to be able to individually re-examine and re-evaluate every new experience we face.  Instead our brains take shortcuts based on past experience, we unconsciously assume that a new experience that is similar to a past experience will have similar results.  Often this is a good thing.  For example, if you burned yourself when you were a kid you don't have to keep re-evalutating a fire everytime to see one to figure out it will still burn you.  Nor do you need to jump off a cliff to know that what happens when you hit the bottom will definitely be unhealthy!  That sort of association has survival value and became part of our psychological make-up as a species.  However, it can be problematic when this psychological mechanism causes us to make an incorrect assumption about a new experience.  A good example can be racism... a bad experience with a person from another race or another culture when young can lead to an adult who assumes they would have a "bad experience" interacting with anyone from that race or culture.  Transference is operating off that same principle, if the patient had particular feelings about their father, and the therapist assumes a paternal demeanor, that can trigger the patient to respond to the therapist in a similar way, which is sometimes useful.

Whether it is healthy or not really depends on how the tranference behaviors affect the individuals ability to function.  In other words, it isn't healthy or unhealthy of itself and can be either.  Let's say a submissive transfered some very negative concepts because of a bad experience, that could inhibit the submissive's ability to function in the relationship and we'd call that unhealthy.  On the other hand suppose the submissive transfered some positive concepts because, for example they had a wonderful relationship with their father, and as a result they were better enabled to function in the relationship, we'd call that healthy.

Even an unhealthy transference can still have a healthy outcome, provided that the resulting feelings and behaviors are explored and confronted so that the submissive learns to re-evaluate the associations being made and learn to make new ones.  For example, a submissive might have a very negative self image that is worsened in particular situations, by placing them in that situation under controlled conditions and in such a way so as that negative self image is challenged, the submissive may learn to re-evaluate their self-image and develop a more positive self-image.  In most cases this can happen without much problem because most of these associations aren't strongly held and so aren't difficult to change, nor do they greatly inhibit or affect our daily lives.  But it can become problematic and even require the aid of a therapist in extreme cases, such as when the original past experiences were very traumatic (that is to say had a strong impact).

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RE: Transference and D/s - 12/30/2007 7:11:57 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Thank you Padriag, you voiced what I was trying to convey earlier, but in a far more logical way. I think that transference does have adaptive elements to it or it would not be such a widely held attribute to all human beings.

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RE: Transference and D/s - 12/30/2007 7:19:02 AM   
Padriag


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Joined: 3/30/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leatherist

I dunno,the idea of being identified with someone's father is kinda squicky to me...........


Prepared to be squicked, most love relationships will eventually have one partner or the other have parental transference...So the likelihood that this has happened in one of your past long term relationships is rather high


True, many women seek men that remind them of their fathers, and many men seek women who remind them of their mothers.  Its another form of association and transference.  Generally, our parents are our first real role models and from them we learn at a very early age what men and women are "supposed" to be like, that is, based on what we observe in our parents behavior we begin to expect similar behavior from other men and women and this affects who we like, respect, trust and are attracted too as adults.  However, sometimes things don't quite work out that way.  If at that early age someone else makes a stronger impact, we may instead make those associations based on someone other than a parent.  We may also, even at that early age, choose to reject that parental role model for a variety of reasons.  Perhaps we never respected them, or perhaps they rejected us, or a long list of other possibilities all of which have the same end result, we choose different role models OR we may choose to model behavior the OPPOSITE of our parents.  Ever see a guy who seems to be almost the opposite of his father?

Again, this isn't necessarily a good or bad thing.  Its another mechanism that we have because it has survival value.  If our parents survived and did well enough to have children, then its likely modeling that behavior would aid us in surviving and having children.  However, that mechanism isn't perfect, sometimes we end up modeling behavior that doesn't help us which is where out ability to re-evaluate things become very important.

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A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

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RE: Transference and D/s - 12/30/2007 7:34:19 AM   
Leatherist


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Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline 		Dysfunctional or abusive parents should be the LAST ones we want to model. Do the opposite instead.

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RE: Transference and D/s - 12/30/2007 8:03:39 AM   
Maya2001


Posts: 1656
Joined: 8/22/2007
From: Woodstock ONT,CANADA
Status: offline
quote:

It's why women who were abused when young pick abusers as partners. They are familiar.


I agree to a point,  I know I did  starting with both physical and mentally abusive,  then managed to avoid the physically abusive but was still picking those mentally abusive ,  learned to recognize that trend,   now will avoid  and recognize in order to submit I have to  trust that the dom  know he respects me even in humiliation play, I can submit/consent  to most activities but the trust, respect, honesty and open communication has got to be present.  

I agree  that transference exists ... some people I may associate with one particular person, others I may view as a conglomeration of several people I have known


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RE: Transference and D/s - 12/30/2007 9:21:12 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		Unless I am misunderstanding this term, I see it synonymously with projecting.  Until we are aware of such projections and develop the skills to venture away from unhealthy projections, we are the victims of our own ignorance. 

When I first met my Master, I just knew he was like every other schmuck I had encountered, and I waited, with my unfair predictions, for him to lie, abuse, and otherwise hurt me.  Finally he said he is sick and tired of being compared to all the other assholes in my life, and it must stop - now.  The words were powerful to me at the time, because I didn't really realize I was doing it.  So I "tested" my own theory, and his.

In fact, I think this is where subconscious testing can rear its ugly head.  In my case, I would disobey or otherwise try to sabbotage what he was trying to build with me.  Without realizing it, I was trying to destroy the relationship before I got too close - to avoid getting hurt again.  When time and again he stood the course and corrected me rather than released me, I was able to abondon my previous projections and see him as a unique and very special entity in my world.

I love that you bring up such a subject, because there are reasons for certain human behaviors, even the not so pretty ones, and if we can understand them, we can resolve a lot of issues within relationships rather than simply calling an end to the relationship.  I don't think anyone is advocating playing armchair shrink here, but equipping oneself with knowledge as to the human psyche is a great tool to use in developing healthy relationships, and in understanding where and why things go wrong.

One can also project good things onto others and be wrong, as well.  Understanding the occurrence of tranference can help us see individuals as their stand-alone selves, rather than "profiling" them along with every "like" being in our past.

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RE: Transference and D/s - 12/30/2007 9:33:29 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I think transference can mix with projection, but projection differs in that it is was is internal to us that we see in other people, and we do not like this in ourselves so we project. An example of this is a man that is extremely jealous and accuses his mate of infidelity when he is the one that is actually guilty of it...

Transference would be if a person strongly disliked a teacher in elementary school, and then years later developed an irrational dislike of a neighbor that unconsciously reminded them of that teacher that was unfair to them. Although I think that your example you were conscious of your transference....

I just got off the phone with my Daddy and we talked for a while about this thread... and he refreshed my memory of this Patch Adams quote

quote:

What's wrong with death, sir? What are we so mortally afraid of? Why can't we treat death with a certain amount of humanity and dignity and decency and God forbid, maybe even humor? Death is not the enemy, gentlemen. If we're gonna fight a desease, let's fight one of the most terrible deseases of all--indifference. Now, I've sat in your school and heard people lecture on transference and professional distance. Transference is inevitable, sir. Every human being has an impact on the oter. Why don't we want that in a patient/ doctor relationship? That's why I've listened to your teachings and I believe they're wrong. A doctor's mission should not just to prevent death but also to improve the quality of life. That's why you treat a desease, you win, you lose. You treat a person, I garantee you- you win, no matter what the outcome. Now, here today this room is full of medical students. Don't let them anesthetize you. Don't let them numb you out to the miracle of life. Always live in awe of the glorious mechanism of the human body, let that be the focus of your studies and not a quest for grades which will give you no idea what kind of doctor you will become


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Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Transference and D/s - 12/30/2007 9:36:30 AM   
velvetears


Posts: 2933
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline 		Projection is different, it's more denial then distortion, it's a defense mechanism when one doesn't want to face a part of themselves, their feelings. An example - You tell a guy, i know you think i am unattractive because you said/did xyz when in reality you actually feel you are unattractive to him.  Maybe not the best example but hope it helps. You attribute a thought or feeling you have a need to repress onto someone eles - sort of a roundabout way of dealing with something thats too painful to deal with.

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RE: Transference and D/s - 12/30/2007 9:41:41 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		Thanks for the clarification of the differences.  I had a feeling I wasn't fully wrapping myself around it.

I truly believe my ex had huge tranferrence issues re: his mother to me.  Our marriage counselor mentioned this as well. 

Interesting quote.  Indifference is the death of all relationships, I think.  And it's when we don't care why something happens that it will keep repeating itself, because we don't know how to fix it. 

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RE: Transference and D/s - 12/30/2007 9:53:00 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

Thanks for the clarification of the differences.  I had a feeling I wasn't fully wrapping myself around it.

I truly believe my ex had huge tranferrence issues re: his mother to me.  Our marriage counselor mentioned this as well. 

Interesting quote.  Indifference is the death of all relationships, I think.  And it's when we don't care why something happens that it will keep repeating itself, because we don't know how to fix it. 


There is a thread called the Oedipus complex going on...smiles.. that one has the momma issues in it... aren't human beings fascinating?

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Transference and D/s - 12/30/2007 9:55:44 AM   
ownedgirlie


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Status: offline 		Yes!!  And I posted there; didn't mean to hijack here...just blurted some thoughts out as they came.  :)

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RE: Transference and D/s - 12/30/2007 10:08:03 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I do not mind thread hijacks, I never understood people being upset by them.... am I hijacking my own thread again?

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Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Transference and D/s - 12/30/2007 10:18:14 AM   
ownedgirlie


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Status: offline 		(yes) 

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RE: Transference and D/s - 12/30/2007 12:56:26 PM   
littlebitxxx


Posts: 732
Status: offline 		Thank you for such and interesting and thought provoking thread.  All the responses were wonderful to read, answering some questions and posing more.  I think it's true there are a lot of 'transference' and 'projectioned' relationships.  After all, we do tend to keep repeating our old habits if we don't recognize and break them.  Sometimes we just plain attract those same people because they are familiar and we recognize the traits.  It's not necessarily good or bad, it happens.  It's what we are comfortable with.  The new relationship can still flourish even with bad traits transferred from a former because the people are different.  Same habits, same character, same traits in a different person with a new personality, new circumstances...it can work.  The old habits that we didn't like are still comfortable and familiar even though we didn't like them.  Comfort and familiarity in a new relationship can be the soft landing cushion as we build it.  Sometimes making the clean break from one personality or character type (that was familiar but unliked) to another that is more desirable yet unfamiliar just doesn't work.  Sometimes changing the type of person we attract, or are attracted to, is just too much.  Maybe changing only the situations and circumstances and keeping the familiarity works better. 

Convoluted thoughts on this Sunday afternoon.

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RE: Transference and D/s - 12/30/2007 2:38:20 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


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Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

I think it might even be more telling to think of Daddy/girl relationships in this context... what do you all think?

Of course it happens all the time.  The key I find is being sensitive to the transference and adult enough to move beyond it- like jealousy.  You recognize it, you seek the source, you stop giving power to the source, and you form a stronger bond over it.

Although I will say that inevitably some things my partner does will remind me of and spark feelings from past experiences, it is the fact that he is so much more than I could ever have imagined deserving to come into my life that makes it impossible to be seriously compared to past relationships.

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