RE: Is BDSM a more advanced/evolved sexual identity than vanilla? (Full Version)

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pinkpleasures -> RE: Is BDSM a more advanced/evolved sexual identity than vanilla? (8/23/2005 9:12:43 AM)

quote:

The vanilla person doesn't have any opportunity for growth because his situation is pretty static. But the second person's got some work to do. He (or she) has to ask, how do I live with this? I can't kill this sadistic (for example) side of me, but I also can't let it run loose and cause rampant harm and destruction either... So what do I do?

pollux


Sir; the generalisations You use are just too big too "hold water". i can assure you, "vanilla" men and women grow sexually over their lifetimes, just as they do spiritually, compassionately, etc.

Even assuming what You assert is a fact, and You can logically "prove" BDSM'ers are more "evolved"; i'm not certain what precisely You mean by that accolade. If we ae so "evolved" how come we flame each other? Why aren't we all involved in disaster relief? Why aren't we all out of the closet, preaching the wonders of BDSM?

Attempts to feel superior to a different group of people generally offend and are usually due to some character flaw in the "elistist", in my opinion.

E/everyone deserves to be treated with respect and dignity, unless by their actions they come to deserve less. It's a real simple rule that seems to get lost here a lot.

pinkpleasures




OsideGirl -> RE: Is BDSM a more advanced/evolved sexual identity than vanilla? (8/23/2005 9:46:19 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkpleasures

quote:

I could tell ya why, Pink. But, I'm convinced you wouldn't listen.

Osidegirl


i have references...people who came to me and we spoke and reached not only an accord but the start of a friendship. If you have an "issue" with me (amazing since this is like the 2nd time i have seen your nick) i invite you to email me.

pinkpleasures


Pink, I have no issue with you. I don't even know you. But, I do understand why you're getting the reaction you are to your posts. This was a sincere offer to help. The second time I've tried and you've slapped at me. With which you just proved my point.

So......whatever.





pollux -> RE: Is BDSM a more advanced/evolved sexual identity than vanilla? (8/23/2005 9:47:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkpleasures

Even assuming what You assert is a fact, and You can logically "prove" BDSM'ers are more "evolved"; i'm not certain what You mean by that accolade, precisely.


I don't think you're really following what I'm saying, but that's ok. I'm sure it hasn't been all that clear or easy to follow. I'll try one more time, and then we'll just have to let it go, or agree to disagree.

I'm not trying to prove BDSM'ers are more evolved -- we've been over that ground, and nobody buys it. Please read my reply to EmeraldSlave2, and then re-read MsPurrmeow's first post, and my reply to it. I'm simply saying that someone who's faced an inner conflict related to their BDSM identity, and found acceptance and an ethical resolution for it, is "more evolved" than someone who hasn't -- at least in that area of their personality (sexual/WIITWD identity).

As to what I mean by "more evolved", I described that in my previous reply to you. By "more evolved" I mean that more transformation or psychological growth has happened. That doesn't make someone "better" than anyone else -- it simply means more work in that area has been performed.

And if you don't like this, blame Purr. She started it. *laughs*


Edit: oops, sorry Pink. I described what I mean by "more evolved" in my reply to ES2, not you:

quote:

Btw, I should clarify -- I'm not talking about genetic/Darwinian evolution. I'm really talking about evolution more in the sense of progress of the psyche, or personal growth, or whatever psychobabbly name you want to put to it.



pinkpleasures -> RE: Is BDSM a more advanced/evolved sexual identity than vanilla? (8/23/2005 10:20:09 AM)

quote:

As to what I mean by "more evolved", I described that in my previous reply to you. By "more evolved" I mean that more transformation or psychological growth has happened. That doesn't make someone "better" than anyone else -- it simply means more work in that area has been performed.

pollux


There are undoubtedly such experiences, pollux...but there are so many challenges and dilemmas in life -- many with sexual connotations -- that i just disagree with Your conclusion unless it's applied, appropriately, on a case-by-case basis. And even then, to whom do we compare the BDSM'er?

pinkpleasures



domtimothy46176 -> RE: Is BDSM a more advanced/evolved sexual identity than vanilla? (8/23/2005 4:07:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pollux

I had an interesting conversation this weekend with someone who mentioned her belief that BDSM is a more highly evolved type of sexuality than vanilla. I'm not sure I agree with that, but I'm curious what others here think.

I'm not talking so much about the Master/Mistress-slave dynamic that pervades daily life for some people here. For this thread, I'm talking purely about the erotic component -- people who incorporate some type of power exchange or sadomasochistic activity into their sex lives, or people who find BDSM sexually stimulating.

Do you think people who practice BDSM -- ethically, of course -- have a more highly developed/advanced/evolved sexual identity than those who don't? Are they "further along" (whatever that might mean) the human developmental path -- at least as far as their sexuality goes -- than vanilla types?



I think it is a compelling argument to state that if vanilla eros is hindered by a lack of self-awareness and further limited by inhibitions that result from societal conditioning, then BDSM eroticism, which tends to be more self-aware and less inhibited, must be a more evolved state. Please note the qualifiers contained in the preceding statement.
Timothy



EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: Is BDSM a more advanced/evolved sexual identity than vanilla? (8/23/2005 4:34:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: domtimothy46176
then BDSM eroticism, which tends to be more self-aware and less inhibited, must be a more evolved state.

I disagree that bdsm eroticism is more self-aware and less inhibited than vanilla.



pinkpleasures -> RE: Is BDSM a more advanced/evolved sexual identity than vanilla? (8/25/2005 4:33:11 PM)

quote:

I think it is a compelling argument to state that if vanilla eros is hindered by a lack of self-awareness and further limited by inhibitions that result from societal conditioning, then BDSM eroticism, which tends to be more self-aware and less inhibited, must be a more evolved state. Please note the qualifiers contained in the preceding statement.

DomTimothy


Well, i know my vanilla friends' "evolution" and feel they constantly grow and face dilemmas and are generally moving towards self-actualization at at least as fast a pace as A/anyone i know from BDSM. i am unsure why the "apples to oranges" comparision matters...why do A/any of U/us need to feel superior to "vanilla" people?

pinkpleasures



LordODiscipline -> RE: Is BDSM a more advanced/evolved sexual identity than vanilla? (8/25/2005 5:48:53 PM)


I suppose we would have to define exactly what the definition of "highly evolved"...

But on the whole, I would not think so...

What we do have (and, this is as a generality) is people who have thought more about their sexuality... people who have had the courage to persue their sexuality (and, it does take courage) and people who are more in tune with their personal psychology than the average 'vanilla' bear.

I dislike the egalitarian "we are better than they are" attitude that such introspection develops in some people. We fight this common issue within the lifestyle.. and, to look outside of "us" for people who are worse (in some way) than we are, denotes that there is a need to find someone <anyone> to look down upon (figuritively)... that is simply something that I am not comfortable with in a denotation of 'superiority'. Kinda hypocritical to state such.

~J



domtimothy46176 -> RE: Is BDSM a more advanced/evolved sexual identity than vanilla? (8/25/2005 5:57:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2


quote:

ORIGINAL: domtimothy46176
then BDSM eroticism, which tends to be more self-aware and less inhibited, must be a more evolved state.

I disagree that bdsm eroticism is more self-aware and less inhibited than vanilla.


I find this to be in contrast to my personal experience with vanilla people, in general. The majority appear to have little or know awareness of their core needs as it pertains to their sexuality and the level of inhibition has often been a defining baseline by which I seperate vanilla and kinkster. These are, however, merely my personal observations and, as always, YMMV.
Timothy



domtimothy46176 -> RE: Is BDSM a more advanced/evolved sexual identity than vanilla? (8/25/2005 6:02:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkpleasures

quote:

I think it is a compelling argument to state that if vanilla eros is hindered by a lack of self-awareness and further limited by inhibitions that result from societal conditioning, then BDSM eroticism, which tends to be more self-aware and less inhibited, must be a more evolved state. Please note the qualifiers contained in the preceding statement.

DomTimothy


Well, i know my vanilla friends' "evolution" and feel they constantly grow and face dilemmas and are generally moving towards self-actualization at at least as fast a pace as A/anyone i know from BDSM. i am unsure why the "apples to oranges" comparision matters...why do A/any of U/us need to feel superior to "vanilla" people?

pinkpleasures


I don't know that it makes much difference one way or the other within the larger framework. The question was tendered and I offered my opinion, as I am often wont to do. Personally, I don't know that I feel superior to anyone, per se. I do find that a great many people simply aren't worth wasting my time on. I don't know that I find proportionately more vanilla folks than kinksters to be beneath contempt but I also don't keep score. [;)]
Timothy



felineone -> RE: Is BDSM a more advanced/evolved sexual identity than vanilla? (8/25/2005 6:31:27 PM)

I beleive that those of us in this lifestyle have explored our sexuality, are perhaps more in tune with that part of ourselves, and i beleive that relationships formed in this context can be much deeper than a typical vanilla relationship. i think that to have a sucessful bdsm relationship you must have that deep level of communication, trust, and respect. While these things are possible in any relationship, i beleive that we, in this lifestyle, work very hard at examining ourselves, and those we partner with, because of the level of trust involved in submission, or Dominance. We must know ourselves before we can commit that deeply to another. I know that i have learned so much about myself, and what i need in a relationship,
since discovering this lifestyle a few years ago.



mnottertail -> RE: Is BDSM a more advanced/evolved sexual identity than vanilla? (8/25/2005 6:46:16 PM)

No, not more advanced (as that word is generally used in this context).

More basic. The idea is not to put on airs for the percieved social mores of the clued in mankind who have taken their beings beyond our humble beginnings......pure bullshit......end of joke.........

Your nature is to be animalistic you belong to that phylum. Don't care how many fairytales tell you it should be another way and you should have this come to jesus that opens your inner self. You've had it all along.....again, end of joke.




pinkpleasures -> RE: Is BDSM a more advanced/evolved sexual identity than vanilla? (8/25/2005 7:02:48 PM)

quote:

I don't know that it makes much difference one way or the other within the larger framework. The question was tendered and I offered my opinion, as I am often wont to do. Personally, I don't know that I feel superior to anyone, per se. I do find that a great many people simply aren't worth wasting my time on. I don't know that I find proportionately more vanilla folks than kinksters to be beneath contempt but I also don't keep score.

DomTimothy


By virtue of simple numbers, naturally all of U/us can say we know more vanilla ppl we have contempt for than BDSM'ers, Sir. i have found all sorts of P/pl in BDSM...wonderful friends, P/pl i don't know well but admire; and the regular collection of P/pl with vices i do not wish to have in my personal life. It takes alot for me to say i hold someone in contempt...i try to give every doubt, every opportunity to change, every bit of empathy i can..but that does not mean necessarially that i want certain problems P/pl have to be part of my personal life.

i'll give an example. A good friend of mine was rapidly promoted in a state agency i represented. The sense of power he thusly acquired changed his code of ethics; his conduct; his sense of himself. i know he was under tremendous pressure in his lofty position, and i do not judge him -- very possibly i would have been just as bad -- but i eventually had to end the friendship. i still keep him in my prayers, but i do not want him in my life.

pinkpleasures



EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: Is BDSM a more advanced/evolved sexual identity than vanilla? (8/25/2005 7:37:47 PM)

If I didn't continue to read so many posts and have so many discussions about the basics of sex, protection, anal sex, guilt over sexuality, etc WITHIN bdsm forums, I might think differently. But I see the exact same sex issues come up in bdsm as I do in vanilla all the time.

And since I know tons of vanillas who are more comfortable and informed of their sexuality than tons of bdsm people, obviously there's nothing INHERENT within bdsm which makes it any less inhibited or any more self aware.



IronBear -> RE: Is BDSM a more advanced/evolved sexual identity than vanilla? (8/25/2005 7:42:44 PM)

I'd have though that we aren't better, just different.



girl4you2 -> RE: Is BDSM a more advanced/evolved sexual identity than vanilla? (8/25/2005 7:48:16 PM)

life is about flux and diversity.



domtimothy46176 -> RE: Is BDSM a more advanced/evolved sexual identity than vanilla? (8/25/2005 10:35:00 PM)

You may have a point. My personal sampling hasn't been neither wide nor random enough to have any statistical validity. My observations may only represent the type of individuals I'm drawn toward.
Having said that, I find the idea that successful relationships, within the context of WIITWD, blossom amid inhibited non-awareness to be counter-intuitive. Then again, my belief is predicated upon my own definition of what constitutes a successful relationship. Perhaps it makes more sense to postulate that an open mind that actively seeks self-knowledge and fulfillment is more likely to experience significant growth, regardless of orientation.
Timothy



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