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The Wonderful World Of Government Healthcare - 1/2/2008 11:46:25 AM   
Estring


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Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Are we really that stupid to go down this road? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=X1PRMN4XJXPRHQFIQMGSFGGAVCBQWIV0?xml=/news/2008/01/02/nhs102.xml

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RE: The Wonderful World Of Government Healthcare - 1/2/2008 11:54:19 AM   
NorthernGent


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Status: offline 		Surely, you don't have to copy the British system? There are other methods available to you.

'Problem is, the National Health Service was an ideal for a bygone age. During the 1940s, the country was on its knees after bankrupting itself in two world wars, so there was widespread need for free healthcare. Today, we're in an age of global economics and widespread prosperity (although this may be about to change). For me it should be based on need; those in need get it free, which would reduce the burden on the public health service.

If anything, you have a ready made system from which to take the good and leave the bad, or develop your own - simple.

Edited to add: I don't know the ins and outs behind this article, but I'd like an alternative view before taking this as gospel; after all, the Torygraph has an agenda.

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 1/2/2008 11:57:10 AM >

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RE: The Wonderful World Of Government Healthcare - 1/2/2008 12:04:51 PM   
Estring


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Status: offline 		When people depend on the government instead of taking the responsibility for themselves, this is the result. It is always the result. Anyone remember Hurricane Katrina?
There is a reason that people from all over the world come to the US when they need good medical care. It is the best care in the world. There are problems for sure, but to destroy great healthcare in order to insure that everyone gets crappy care seems ridiculous to me. And depending on government healthcare will insure just that.

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RE: The Wonderful World Of Government Healthcare - 1/2/2008 12:04:56 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Well we're stupid enough to go down the road of Imperialism spending hundreds of billions of dollars in Iraq, Afganistan, 700 bases in 130 countries, $34.6 B in "foreign aid", needless Embasseys in almost every country in the world.
I don't think any of that is "smart" at all!
I'd rather be spending that money in the U.S. on healthcare.
Funny thing, the taxes of 45 million U.S. Citizens who have no healthcare are being spent in foreign countries to build Hospitals!
There's something very wrong with that scenario!

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RE: The Wonderful World Of Government Healthcare - 1/2/2008 12:06:37 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		Sorry E, Didn't see your thread, and started my own.

I'll repost it here and delete the other

For those who look forward to a US version of wonders of nationalized health care experienced in the UK...
quote:

LONDON (AFP) — Patients suffering from asthma, arthritis and heart failure will be encouraged to treat their own conditions as part of government measures to save billions of pounds for the NHS, a report said Wednesday.
"Self care" plans were contained in an internal government memo, which also suggested patients have medical equipment installed in their homes to save them visiting hospitals, according to The Daily Telegraph.
Source:  http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5gXNuoUxot_rkzkTo4-tYB30u5nUg

How about that!? When a government gets involved with health care the cost goes up and the service goes down. Who could have anticipated such an outcome? Yet we have candidates envious of this system. Well, maybe not the system, but the potential to tax more by baiting the naive into believing that socialized medicine will enable them to live to be 150.

National Heath Care - Another 'sounds good' principle where the results speak for themselves.

I wonder if the "self care" plans referenced offer at home do it yourself heart bi-pass, or arthritic hip replacement kits? Maybe they'll provide color charts determining which shade of blue lips qualifies your asthmatic child to see a Doctor? 

These stories are excellent sources of cynical amusement.

Edited to add:

Additional source info:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/01/02/nhs102.xml

This one was really good.

Apparently the UK wants to, or has established "model standards" for self care. Amazing! Would we allow any Insurance Company to set similar, after the fact, standards? Remember, this isn't the promise of socialized medicine. In fact it is a selling point to say that no longer would someone at an insurance company determine the treatment path. That would be true. The insurance bureaucrat would be replaced by a government bureaucrat, monitoring government "standards". It would suggest, if similar personal accountability is applied, that anyone outside the government height/weight guidelines would have the responsibility to loss weight prior to being authorized for treatment for arthritis, high blood pressure, or any condition affected by being over weight.

quote:

What this seems to amount to in practice are the Government's rights to refuse treatment, and the patient's responsibilities to live up to what the state decides are model standards.
Such a policy would also fly in the face of the normal expectation of human rights. If a private insurance company to which people had been paying premiums over a lifetime were to declare retrospectively that it would not cover treatment for smokers or the overweight, its customers could rightly sue for breach of contract.
Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2008/01/02/dl0201.xml 

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 1/2/2008 12:09:44 PM >

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RE: The Wonderful World Of Government Healthcare - 1/2/2008 12:09:18 PM   
Estring


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Status: offline 		Lol. That's okay.

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RE: The Wonderful World Of Government Healthcare - 1/2/2008 12:13:49 PM   
Estring


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Status: offline 		Popeye, I agree with mauch of what you are saying. My problem is with allowing government to control another part of my life, and for the worse. Why not cut taxes so people can afford to get their own healthcare, and also fix the problems that are making it too expensive for some. By the way, most people who do not have healthcare in this country choose not to. They do what I did as a younger person, decided not to purchase any.

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RE: The Wonderful World Of Government Healthcare - 1/2/2008 12:13:52 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

When people depend on the government instead of taking the responsibility for themselves, this is the result.



Really? Can you be sure "this is the result" of government intervention? Are you sufficiently versed in the ins and outs of the British National Health Service to make such a claim?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

There is a reason that people from all over the world come to the US when they need good medical care.



For all I know, the above may be correct, or incorrect; then again, something like 40 million Americans can't afford to pay for health care? I suppose it's a matter of what you desire for the people of your country.

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RE: The Wonderful World Of Government Healthcare - 1/2/2008 12:20:15 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

When people depend on the government instead of taking the responsibility for themselves, this is the result. It is always the result. Anyone remember Hurricane Katrina?
There is a reason that people from all over the world come to the US when they need good medical care. It is the best care in the world. There are problems for sure, but to destroy great healthcare in order to insure that everyone gets crappy care seems ridiculous to me. And depending on government healthcare will insure just that.


Yes, there *is* a reason that people from all over the world come here for operations, they get their operations and screw without paying the bill and leave the Taxpayers to foot the bill.
In cases like that the doctors and hospitals should have to eat the bill not U.S. Taxpayers!
And, Illegal Aliens are getting free healthcare!
(They) have free national healthcare and U.S. Citizens don't!

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RE: The Wonderful World Of Government Healthcare - 1/2/2008 12:21:36 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

something like 40 million Americans can't afford to pay for health care?
"Can't afford it" doesn't disqualify you from getting it. It is illegal in the US for any hospital to refuse treatment to anyone. They aren't required to be h/w/p. They aren't even required to be citizens or have paid any taxes going to support the emergency ward where treatment is received.

Of course this reality has caused many, especially in the inter city, hospitals to go bankrupt, but treatment was and is provided. It better be, because waiting in the lobby is a group of attorneys who'd love to have the opportunity to sue the hospital if treatment wasn't provided.

There's a good combination to envy; UK Health system and UK Civil Tort system.

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RE: The Wonderful World Of Government Healthcare - 1/2/2008 12:29:40 PM   
camille65


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

something like 40 million Americans can't afford to pay for health care?
"Can't afford it" doesn't disqualify you from getting it. It is illegal in the US for any hospital to refuse treatment to anyone. They aren't required to be h/w/p. They aren't even required to be citizens or have paid any taxes going to support the emergency ward where treatment is received.

Of course this reality has caused many, especially in the inter city, hospitals to go bankrupt, but treatment was and is provided. It better be, because waiting in the lobby is a group of attorneys who'd love to have the opportunity to sue the hospital if treatment wasn't provided.

There's a good combination to envy; UK Health system and UK Civil Tort system.
 But receiving care for an emergency is not at all the same thing as being able to receive care for a chronic condition or something not immediately life threatening. 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

Popeye, I agree with mauch of what you are saying. My problem is with allowing government to control another part of my life, and for the worse. Why not cut taxes so people can afford to get their own healthcare, and also fix the problems that are making it too expensive for some. By the way, most people who do not have healthcare in this country choose not to. They do what I did as a younger person, decided not to purchase any.
 Of all the uncovered people that I know here in Michigan, none are uncovered by choice including myself. I simply cannot afford to buy healthcare and buy groceries/heat for my house. In fact I would have to literally give up every single purchase I make and even then I would fall short financially.

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RE: The Wonderful World Of Government Healthcare - 1/2/2008 12:33:06 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

It is illegal in the US for any hospital to refuse treatment to anyone.



Man can't afford treatment, he is admitted to hospital and is treated: what then? a bill through his door? order of magnitude?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

There's a good combination to envy; UK Health system



You shouldn't be surprised at this, but I'll spell it out anyway: we have our style, and there are associated positives and negatives; no one at this end is under any illusions with regard to this matter.

It's worth pointing out, also, that there are many variables, here: the global economy, a shortage of funding during the Tory years, an absolute monster of a system that by virtue of size is guaranteed to result in some inefficiencies etc.

I'm surprised you're focusing your attention on the British style; after all, you're free to do it your own way.

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RE: The Wonderful World Of Government Healthcare - 1/2/2008 12:35:07 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

Popeye, I agree with mauch of what you are saying. My problem is with allowing government to control another part of my life, and for the worse. Why not cut taxes so people can afford to get their own healthcare, and also fix the problems that are making it too expensive for some. By the way, most people who do not have healthcare in this country choose not to. They do what I did as a younger person, decided not to purchase any.


Funny, we have the best Military in the world run by....the government. I don't hear any complaints there.
Perhaps we could model a national healthcare system on the military too so that it ran efficiently.
It doesn't make sense to say we have the best medical care in the world but that if we included all U.S. Citizens in that care that it would be ruined.
And, if our taxes are paying for it it's not socialised medicine, is it?
It's where (we) (want) our money to be spent.

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RE: The Wonderful World Of Government Healthcare - 1/2/2008 12:36:12 PM   
Estring


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Status: offline 		Lower taxes so that you would be able to keep more of your money seems like the best answer to me. Depending on more beauracracy seems like a terrible answer. But what else can you expect from people inundated in an "entitlement" atmosphere. 

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RE: The Wonderful World Of Government Healthcare - 1/2/2008 12:41:54 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

Lower taxes so that you would be able to keep more of your money seems like the best answer to me. Depending on more beauracracy seems like a terrible answer. But what else can you expect from people inundated in an "entitlement" atmosphere. 


Yup, and if we closed most Embasseys in the world, closed 600 of those 700 military bases round the world, and stopped all that foolish "foreign aid" we could have much lower taxes!
Our govt is supposed to be working for U.S. Citizens not for foreign countries!

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RE: The Wonderful World Of Government Healthcare - 1/2/2008 12:42:39 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

But receiving care for an emergency is not at all the same thing as being able to receive care for a chronic condition or something not immediately life threatening.


camille,
Agree in principle, in practice especially here in CA, chronic, and non life threatening treatment is the norm. "Emergency" rooms at hospitals are places where the majority of care given is pointed to treating chronic and non life threatening health issues. The most common treatment given in LA hospital emergency rooms is for the cold/flu symptoms. However the requirement for treating all is honored. They may wait 4-5 hours, but they will be treated regardless of their ability to pay, insurance coverage, or lack of coverage.

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RE: The Wonderful World Of Government Healthcare - 1/2/2008 1:07:34 PM   
camille65


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Status: offline 		If I were to go to my closest ER and say 'I'm having a fibro flare, or a lupus flare or that my jaw is locked due to the tmj' they would do nothing for me. I know because I tried when I couldn't afford my morphine last year.I ended up going through horrid and horrifying withdrawl and the best they could do was to offer a bed on the psych ward. It angers and frustrates me to no end. My entire adult life until 2 years ago I was working and paying into the system. Now that I can no longer work I can no longer get medical help unless I pay out of pocket. None of my meds are covered under the discount programs, I've tried that as well.I am an unemployed single person who pays just over $1000.00 a month in medication, my savings are dwindling and the time will come when I simply run out of money. If, if I am very lucky I will be able to sell my home and move to a condo. The housing market in Michigan is one of the worst in the nation, that is why I say 'if'.Argh sorry for going on and venting but I am so close, so very close to being financially broken.It is a scary thing for a 42 year old divorcee to be facing alone. I'm thankful that I don't have UMs to protect, just myself. I wish we had a national health care system, I do not think it will happen however.

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RE: The Wonderful World Of Government Healthcare - 1/2/2008 1:10:14 PM   
samboct


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Status: offline 		" There is a reason that people from all over the world come to the US when they need good medical care. It is the best care in the world. There are problems for sure, but to destroy great healthcare in order to insure that everyone gets crappy care seems ridiculous to me. And depending on government healthcare will insure just that."

Let's look at some of the assumptions here shall we?  Best healthcare in the world if you can travel to it?  That presupposes a fair amount in the bank to start with- most people from South America and Mexico aren't coming here for our health care- they're coming here for jobs.  So who exactly is coming to the US for health care?  Yes, we do a lot of cutting edge research, so our high end care is pretty goodp if you can afford it or have the insurance for it.  But then again, so is Switzerland, which has lots of health care research as well, along with multinational pharma companies headquartered there.

On averages though- given our track record on infant mortality or using proxies such as life expectancy- the US isn't doing so hot at all.  In terms of spending though- well, that's through the roof- what are we at- some 15% of GNP?  Close to double any other country?  Seems to me that we've got one hell of a bureacracy for our buck- and the insurance companies and hospitals are very happy to go on having people like you believe that the US system is the envy of the world.  It isn't- not by a long shot- not when it comes of delivery of health care to the average individual.

The reason that US healthcare at the high end is pretty good has to do with the amount of research that gets done in this country.  Research, which I'll quickly point out, is largely funded by that same US gov't that you're so quick to bash. 

From my perspective-a lot of the response to Katrina is from people like you-bash the gov't whether they've done a good job or bad- getting rid of them and reducing taxes is always the answer.  Well, we've got a tanking economy, a liquidity crisis in the loan industry, a dollar in free fall compared to other currencies, and much of our manufacturing infrastructure has been shifted to China.  Your prescription for the health care industry sounds like more of the same.

Our response to Katrina was terrible- I think we can at least agree on that.  But if you set the bar for gov'ts performance so low, what do you expect?

In terms of health care- we've got spiraling costs- upward based on a lack of regulation of the health care insurance industry which makes money by denying care- which often winds up costing more in the long run.  It's a crazy system.

Furthermore- your attitude that everyone should be able to cover their own expenses is heartless.  (I could throw in a whole bunch of adjectives here- but it'd get too close to an ad hominem attack.)  What do you tell a kid with a defective heart valve born to a destitute mother?  Gee kid- you're not worth much- and since it'll be 20 years before you can even begin to pay back the cost of your care- we're just going to let you die?

Not to mention that personalized medicine and the "we'll tell you your genome" companies are making health insurance obsolete.

It's time for a new health care model- the sooner the better.

Sam

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RE: The Wonderful World Of Government Healthcare - 1/2/2008 1:14:04 PM   
LadyEllen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

Are we really that stupid to go down this road? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=X1PRMN4XJXPRHQFIQMGSFGGAVCBQWIV0?xml=/news/2008/01/02/nhs102.xml


Saving money is a legitimate aim - the problem with this is that it is aimed at exactly the wrong target for achieving efficiencies, because it is measuring efficiency by an inadequate means (ie the pennies alone) rather than the correct means (number of successful outcomes per time period per pennies spent). Quite simply, we spend far too much on over organising and over managing the system via hierarchies of administrators, compared to spending on the key activity - and this results in huge spending for less than satisfactory results. Any private sector organisation which was organised, administered and managed as the NHS is, would be out of business within six months.

The second problem is a misunderstanding of the fact that to provide a national health service costs money - a lot of money - and the further misunderstanding that the £100-00 spent today is not a cost as such, but an investment which may save £thousands tomorrow to treat conditions and illnesses which have deteriorated - and not only in terms of medical costs but also social costs in general, which dont always come with a monetary price tag on them.

The key to achieving the best result is to ensure that the organisation is focussed on the core activity and to bear in mind that even with the utmost efficiency, its going to be a costly exercise.

And for The Torygraph to be reporting this as an obvious attack on PM Brown, after their natural party harrowed the NHS for nearly twenty years, is quite, well, lets say annoying.

E

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RE: The Wonderful World Of Government Healthcare - 1/2/2008 1:27:59 PM   
Lordandmaster


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Status: offline 		Ah yes, Katrina.  Of course it was the people's fault.  They should have blown that damned hurricane right back into the sea!  Or else they should have built the multi-billion dollar coastal protection system that every study had recommended long before the hurricane ever came.  Why did people think of that???

quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

When people depend on the government instead of taking the responsibility for themselves, this is the result. It is always the result. Anyone remember Hurricane Katrina?

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