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RE: Action vs. Reaction - 1/3/2008 8:03:28 PM   
lanie38


Posts: 120
Joined: 9/14/2007
Status: offline 		Sure his moods affect me...I care about him and what he thinks. But that being said I'm in a relationship, and in our partnership we are each other's biggest supporters.

I think we'd doing a great disservice to our partnership if we were that affected by each other's moods. After all, if he's sad I want to be able to stay positive and a light in his life to keep him hopeful. If I'm angry he'd want to be the voice of reason, perspective and understanding that keeps me grounded. And happiness..well that one's easy...

For us it's about balance..with the scales that work for us..

~lanie

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(in reply to geishagurl)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Action vs. Reaction - 1/3/2008 8:25:07 PM   
Driver1961


Posts: 459
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline 		He dips His lid;

"When something is wrong with my baybee, something is wrong with me"

I believe this to be true otherwise I would question the dynamic between myself and partner/sub. The 'power' to please another can involve self-sacrifice to self-detriment.  Many Dominants fail to grasp this adequately. (I have been there)   Yes emotions can go awry and the subsequent post mortems of WHO did the Action first before a NEGATIVE reaction can become arguments in themselves. Two people are individuals with differing perspectives. One or both  can predicate (Come from) self-defensive (negative)  perspectives.  Where trust or respect of the other is not paramount during the post-mortems (or preferably prior or during the disagreement) then the relationship is heading in or is in the sewer.   A Dominant giving instructions to a sub (be it guidelines/correction/punishment) has a right to expect they are understood and accepted; unless subsequently questioned by the sub. No different than a sub detailing her limits and no different than expectations in nilla relationships.    

The question arises; Who is responsible for another reacting negatively?  Buttons are pushed many can argue.   Finger pointing,dammnations etc. A submissive can equally affect a Dominant's state of mind  as the reverse- it all comes down to the state of mind of the individual's concerned.

Yes, ideally a Dominant SHOULD wield their 'power' judiciously for the sub's overall benefit but we are not Gods. (True Dominants are not Gods Ha Ha!) How submissives relate 'power' to their Dominant varies upon the individual and the parameters of the relationship.   Daddy/girl. Master/Slave, D/s and even S/M.  We are people with flaws just as all other 'labels' in society are not perfect.

We are ansewerable (sic) to ourselves and solely responsible for own own actions and reactions.

The willingness or ability to communicate within ourselves and to a significant other is fundamental to negating or overcoming the Original Post. Significant others must understand the expectations of the other and must demonstrate this with 'reinforcing actions' to optimise respect when the inevitable lapse into the sewer arises.  

Hey, "Shit Happens?!" and it happens in relationships- it is our learning of ourselves that we have as we arise to cleanse ourselves and present ourselves.

My thoughts, Driver.

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(in reply to geishagurl)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Action vs. Reaction - 1/4/2008 12:00:04 PM   
breatheasone


Posts: 4004
Joined: 7/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

quote:

If he withdraws from her for punishment,

In my eyes, that is not how a Dominant man/woman behaves; that is how a weak, spiteful, person acts.

QFT


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(in reply to IrishMist)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Action vs. Reaction - 1/4/2008 12:08:37 PM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		I do not think that some s types know how their emotions can touch their masters either.  It's not merely one sided.
Of course anyones emotions, when you have consistant contact effects others.  Anything you wrote can be reversed.
 
However, I do not believe that withdrawing is a healthy punishment for aprolong period of time.  If it is effecting you that much, then communicate this to him.  I don't believe withdraw is a good positive tool personally.  With holding something is different, but withdrawing is a passive-aggressive manipulation and not in a good way.  Unless mind fucks are your thang.
 
the.dark.

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Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Action vs. Reaction - 1/4/2008 1:42:21 PM   
slavemaia


Posts: 395
Joined: 8/26/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

That sounds like codependency, in a bad way. You need healthy boundaries, so if his boss is snarling at him you shouldn't have a break down. Sympathize with his stress, certainly. Try to ameliorate other stresses, of course. But be wound up by his mood with no line drawn between him and you, no thanks.


i would agree in terms of a submissve, but certainly not in terms of a slave. And for those who think there's no difference between a sub and a slave, think what you wish, but i know, from my own experience,  there is definitely a huge difference.

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She reaches up, not for the apple, but for what causes it to be there.
slave to love - - Chairman's maia

(in reply to DesFIP)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Action vs. Reaction - 1/4/2008 4:15:53 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slavemaia
think what you wish, but i know, from my own experience,  there is definitely a huge difference.

So in your own experience you know what every other subs and slaves experience is and that is it always a huge difference between them?

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Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Action vs. Reaction - 1/4/2008 4:25:32 PM   
FullCircle


Posts: 5713
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline 		Newton’s laws do not apply to relationships, sorry. I find your hypothesis implausible. Unless you think all humans are so two dimensional and their behaviour can so easily be predicted?

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(in reply to geishagurl)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Action vs. Reaction - 1/4/2008 4:29:17 PM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

I do not think that some s types know how their emotions can touch their masters either.  It's not merely one sided.
Of course anyones emotions, when you have consistant contact effects others.  Anything you wrote can be reversed.
 
However, I do not believe that withdrawing is a healthy punishment for aprolong period of time.  If it is effecting you that much, then communicate this to him.  I don't believe withdraw is a good positive tool personally.  With holding something is different, but withdrawing is a passive-aggressive manipulation and not in a good way.  Unless mind fucks are your thang.
 
the.dark.

 
Agreed, although I wouldn't call that a "mindfuck" per se as much as a rather unhealthy communication style which would be unacceptable to me personally. 
 
To the OP his withdrawing doesn't make me depressed, it makes me question his ability to effectively lead and eventually lose interest.  I think many threw out the term codependency as a knee-jerk reaction, however, the reality is that many times this type of relationship promotes some codependence which is one of the reasons from a vanilla perspective it is criticised and I don't use those standards in my bdsm d/s relationships.  However, there's certainly a line somewhere where one must balance their own personal growth and emotional health with the dependence on their partner.  Getting depressed when they fail to communicate would be way over that line for me personally.

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I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Action vs. Reaction - 1/4/2008 5:11:45 PM   
sunshinemiss


Posts: 17673
Joined: 11/26/2007
Status: offline 		hmmmmmmmmmmm ... it is a conundrum, isn't it.... Being a strong passionate person who is deeply sensitive to another's wishes and who submits to that.  Of course there are fuzzy boundaries for some of us... of course many of us have difficulties with this... Heck even the strongest of the strong has the occasional issue with this. 

Withdrawing from you for DAYS? That seems extreme to me.  It is certainly perfectly acceptable to withdraw to some degree... maybe A DAY...I myself try to say (and ask others to do this as well) "I'm really angry and need a little time to think about what just happened.  I'll get back to you later/tomorrow/after work."  That allows for some cooling off time, some examination time (why exactly am I angry?) and then some preparation time to think through how to say to the other person what I need to say (how can I say this in a non defensive, non attacking way?).  

Through self-discipline (guilt, shame, embarassment) we can sometimes find ways to correct ourselves for the future.  To use a real life example.... When I was a girl, I used to leave my shoes in the middle of the floor.  I was always told to put them away but didn't.  Then one day my grandmother (whom I adored) tripped and fell on them.  Well, I can't tell you how horrible I felt that I had hurt her (she was only bruised, but still....).  The feelings of causing her to be hurt were much greater punishment than being grounded or whatever - I don't even remember what my punishment was... I do remember vividly how horrible I felt about hurting her.  To this day I can feel that.  Have I ever left shoes in the middle of the floor again?  NO.  Is that because I was punished?  No.  Is it because I hurt someone I loved?  Yes.

If days of being ignored works for you (and your post suggests that it does not), I'd be sure to bring that up.  Adult, mature conversation is the best way in my opinion.  Perhpas your Dom likes to watch you squirm and wants days of begging from you.  If that's the case and you guys work it out, great.... But, if he is just being a little boy who is holding his breath to get his way... until his face turns blue, well that tells you a lot about his character, doesn't it?

peace.

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Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Action vs. Reaction - 1/4/2008 6:26:18 PM   
PsyVamp


Posts: 1026
Joined: 10/30/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss



Withdrawing from you for DAYS? That seems extreme to me.  It is certainly perfectly acceptable to withdraw to some degree... maybe A DAY...I myself try to say (and ask others to do this as well) "I'm really angry and need a little time to think about what just happened.  I'll get back to you later/tomorrow/after work."  That allows for some cooling off time, some examination time (why exactly am I angry?) and then some preparation time to think through how to say to the other person what I need to say (how can I say this in a non defensive, non attacking way?).  

If days of being ignored works for you (and your post suggests that it does not), I'd be sure to bring that up.  Adult, mature conversation is the best way in my opinion.  Perhpas your Dom likes to watch you squirm and wants days of begging from you.  If that's the case and you guys work it out, great.... But, if he is just being a little boy who is holding his breath to get his way... until his face turns blue, well that tells you a lot about his character, doesn't it?

peace.


I will have to agree on this one.  Even when I do "ignore" wolf, it is never for more than a short time, usually a day and usually, as I said before, to figure out if its all in my head, and if not, then to figure out a course of action. 
If it were to be for days, it wouldn't do to be together at all, since to me, communication is so very important. 



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Don't take life too seriously; No one gets out alive. .
Could a blue screen of death constitute being defenestrated?
~Owner of wolf~ (one of them, anyway)

(in reply to sunshinemiss)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Action vs. Reaction - 1/4/2008 6:56:03 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		Withdrawal being a topic of it's own. Again it depends. If that to you spells abandonment and causes gaping emotional difficulties then it's a stupid way of handling things. Because people when threatened enough finally cause the threat to come true in order to stop waiting for it.

So if you want her to assume you are abandoning her, be prepared for her not to be there when you later on yell surprise, I haven't left after all.

For people who don't have that abandonment trigger, then it can be used. However if it has to be frequently, and for more reason then the dom/me needing time off to get themselves under control, then it isn't the most compatible or workable of relationships.


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Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Action vs. Reaction - 1/4/2008 9:48:33 PM   
geishagurl


Posts: 54
Joined: 11/22/2007
Status: offline 		I want to thank each and every one of you for your opinions. Some of you put a lot of thought into your answers for me and I want to thank you for that.  I think using withdrawl works better for some than for others. Some can handle it, some can for a short amount of time, some for longer, and some can't at all. We are all different. I think using psychological BDSM, concerning withdrawl, can be a dangerous thing, no matter how big or small the crime was, and the Dom needs to know his submissive well before administering it.  In some cases, perhaps it's his way of ending the relationship to make his submissive feel as bad as he did when she first made the mistake.
 
Thank you again,
 
Geisha
 

(in reply to DesFIP)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Action vs. Reaction - 1/4/2008 10:33:57 PM   
robertolapiedra


Posts: 520
Joined: 5/3/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: geishagurl

I think Dominants sometimes do not realize how MUCH power they have over their submissive, emotional wise.  If he is happy, she is happy.  If he’s unhappy, she is unhappy.  If he’s disappointed in her, she’s even more disappointed in herself.  If he withdraws from her for punishment, she withdraws even further.  If his withdrawal from her lasts too long, she can go into depression.  I think sometimes Dominants forget or are unaware just how sensitive submissives are to their Dominant’s satisfaction and/or acceptance of them.

What’s your take on it, anyone?


Hello geishagurl. My take on it is, it is not because you are the submissive half of a PE consensual relationship that you cannot communicate exactly what are your psychological limits to your dominant. You have to be an adult about this and stop saying that dominants "sometimes do not realize how much power they have emotional wise". You do not know what we know or not. Just realize how little power "you" have and how convenient it is to blame your dom for your lack of communication and responsabilty to yourself and the relationship. Just my take, you can "take" it or leave it. RL.

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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Action vs. Reaction - 1/5/2008 3:11:40 AM   
ExSteelAgain


Posts: 1803
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Georgia
Status: offline 		It is extreme - and wrong, too, in the context of suggesting, in essence, that submissives are hurt because Doms don’t take steps to head off feelings of rejection for ordinary actions. Should a Dominant foresee everything that affects a submissive?  

Ain't gonna happ'n, cap'n.

The fact is that as a matter of principle a Dom shouldn’t try to create the feelings of rejection in the submissive, nor should a submissive feel hurt beyond the norm for slight slights.

The problem?

We are all influenced by the action of our partners as we get to know them in subtle ways. I can detect insecurity and then have several options. I can even use her insecurity to make her more of a slave.

But let's say I did. Then what?

My control over her may be meaningless - because neither she nor I is going to have a solid relationship based on insecurity. I may temporarily use it, but I can’t build serious control of her with it.

That requires my dedicated concern for her in a way that she understands to be there at all times.  I have to be careful here, I don’t want to do something just to be able to claim I have Done Something on an issue about which she helplessly hopes for action.

Full circle here.

If I know she is distraught, possibly by my actions, I don’t have to wait impotently and hope things get better, I can work in subtle ways as any companion would, but there is not a responsibility for me to know deep insecurities not based in reality, especially not with a casual partner.

Period.

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(in reply to geishagurl)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Action vs. Reaction - 1/5/2008 5:58:58 AM   
Driver1961


Posts: 459
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: geishagurl

EDITED
I think using psychological BDSM, concerning withdrawl, can be a dangerous thing, no matter how big or small the crime was, and the Dom needs to know his submissive well before administering it.  In some cases, perhaps it's his way of ending the relationship to make his submissive feel as bad as he did when she first made the mistake.
Extremely valid points here in your summation.  Withdrawal can be a very dangerous thing even if the D thinks their submissive has told them all there is to know about them to evaluate a 'correction'.  The withdrawal can trigger emotions/reactions well outside the concious thought of the submissive AND; let's not forget the Dominant can also react similarly; and not understand how their 'correction/s' are interpreted by the submissive.  A submiissive may believe it is the D's way of ending the relationship when in fact it is not!  The D may simply want  to have the submissive  feel as bad as they did (conciously or unconsciously) when the mistake was made.
Warm regards Driver.
 
Thank you again,
 
Geisha
 


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Dance as though nobody is watching!

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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Action vs. Reaction - 1/5/2008 6:49:24 AM   
SirJohnMandevill


Posts: 546
Joined: 11/10/2005
Status: offline 		Just my .02 zlotys: I doubt I'd be happy with a submissive who acts as the OP describes. I generally seek women who are strong and intelligent outside our D/s relationship, making the kind of codependency described unlikely.

And I have to echo one of IrishMist's early comments: emotional withdrawal for punishment is petty and childish, and not something a responsible Dominant does. If you have a problem, TALK with your sub. Don't ignore her!

Les (Purveyor of Fine, Handcrafted Kink)

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Iam an eroticist
I am a fully eroticized being
No more neuroses
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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Action vs. Reaction - 1/5/2008 9:06:46 AM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick

I think sometimes people should take more responsibility for their own emotional health. 

Cali



ditto

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An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Action vs. Reaction - 1/5/2008 12:50:31 PM   
slavemaia


Posts: 395
Joined: 8/26/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross


So in your own experience you know what every other subs and slaves experience is and that is it always a huge difference between them?


mmmmm - yup - although we all like to think we are all so terminally unique - we aren't. Whether someone wants to admit there is a difference between a sub and a slave or not is certainly their own individual peroggative. However, refusing to believe a chicken is a chicken and a duck is a duck don't make it so.

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She reaches up, not for the apple, but for what causes it to be there.
slave to love - - Chairman's maia

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Action vs. Reaction - 1/5/2008 12:55:11 PM   
Raechard


Posts: 3513
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: S.E. London U.K.
Status: offline 		A chicken may be a chicken but a human is far more complicated than either a chicken or a duck.

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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Action vs. Reaction - 1/5/2008 12:56:49 PM   
LATEXBABY64


Posts: 2107
Joined: 4/8/2004
Status: offline 		You know after all this time I have to say for onces someone gets it
just that simple yep but then again we have to many primates who think to much like monkees and not human beings they remind me of baboons snorting and grunting  like a pack of animals that all they do is crap eat and pick their butt or each others lol

(in reply to geishagurl)
Profile   Post #: 40
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