RE: Does obedience = "doormat"? (Full Version)

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MistressJan -> RE: Does obedience = "doormat"? (10/4/2005 11:30:38 AM)

Johnny:

I am assuming you have agreed to be this persons sub or slave. You should know there are consequences involved. My advice to you is disobeidence equals punishment, and that is the way it should be.

Respectfully,

Mistress_Jan



Lordandmaster -> RE: Does obedience = "doormat"? (10/4/2005 11:46:16 AM)

"Doormat" is a word that people invented so that they can tear down others in the mistaken belief that tearing down others will make them feel better about themselves.

(I think it was Lou Holtz who said that you can burn down your neighbor's house, but it doesn't make your own house any nicer.)

Just be yourself. If other people want to call you a "doormat," they can go fuck themselves. It's your life, not theirs.



Hallittlelolita -> RE: Does obedience = "doormat"? (10/4/2005 2:59:01 PM)

No i do not believe that obedience = doormat in any way at all. i am proud to serve and obey my Master does that mean i am a doormat? heck no! If some people think that then screw em pardon my french lol but it's true.What people think is just an opinion not a fact. So who cares what people think of you or me or anyone as long as you are happy that is all that matters[;)][;)][:)]

sincerely andie and her Master Hal



LadiesBladewing -> RE: Does obedience = "doormat"? (10/4/2005 7:11:51 PM)

Actually, I wasn't thinking of a submissive or slave when I wrote that, but of an individual I knew who isn't in the lifestyle at all. Once in the lifestyle, at least in our household, a situation like that could not occur, because the Guides would make sure that it didn't.

I suppose that, for us, part of the trust between servant and guide is the knowledge that we would never do something that would require one of our servants to cause themselves harm--and for us, that includes a servant who would not speak up and let us know when he or she was ill and unable to comply with something we asked.

I would consider a servant who would ruin him or herself to finish a task to be, in fact, ruining my property. I value my property, so suffice to say, such behavior would not suit our arrangement well.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Soulhuntre


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadiesBladewing
An example of a "doormat" would be someone who was, let's say, sick. She or he was approached to do something, and, even though xhe knew it would compromise hir health, xhe couldn't say "no", so xhe did what was asked even though it would damage hir.


Fortunately these definitions aren't universal or binding.

For instance I woudl absolutely expect obedience from someone who is sick... even if it may compromise their health. That trade off, that choice, is mine to make... not my property or servants. BDSM is a "lifestyle" of many variants - and someone who woudl obey even at cost or risk to their health is no doormat - rather I see them as someone who is "sufficiently dedicated" :)



SirSix72 -> RE: Does obedience = "doormat"? (10/7/2005 2:53:49 PM)

Interesting how the bottom topper found her friends to help her top you from the bottom,,I have seen this type of behaviour in the past decade, You did the right things by telling her to not let the door hit her in the *** on the way out. As far as the doormat thing *laughs* bella is called that alot and she replies that she isnt part of the bra burners group and because her dedication to Me is limitless dosent imply that she is a doormat, it implies that she is well ebhaved there is a difference in between being proactive or reactive but neither implies that the other is a doormat,,I veiw the ones who claim they arent a doormat as the uninformed about the reality of the lifestyle click the *BIG X button* and move on.

Master Six



JustaTop -> RE: Does obedience = "doormat"? (10/7/2005 2:59:55 PM)

Doormat implies a person with non existent sense of self worth.

Obedience to a person out of a sense of devotion does not fit this criteria-it takes more work and will to do that properly.

Which is what most of those I see using this phrase as a tear down seem to be lacking,in my estimation. The self discipline and will power to carry through on a promise when the rubber hits the pavement. Instead,they squeal,spin aimlessly,and throw out a lot of foul smelling smoke to hide the lack of action.

But there doesn't seem to be a lot in the way of traction,or forward motion.[;)]



Kasia -> RE: Does obedience = "doormat"? (10/7/2005 3:02:32 PM)

I need a doormat for my bedroom, preferable male. Must be between 172 and 180 cm tall; blue/grey/green eyes; muscular and strong enough to be walked over by not-so-skinny me. And yes, well endowed (I love that expression).
Anyone cares to apply?



ownedjulia -> RE: Does obedience = "doormat"? (10/7/2005 3:03:27 PM)

quote:

Doormat implies a person with non existent sense of self worth.


I *HATE* that phrase. So what if Master wants to treat me as a doormat? He may just want to wipe his feet on something soft and warm! [:D]



BlueDevil -> RE: Does obedience = "doormat"? (10/7/2005 3:32:51 PM)

I knew what it was, I have one at the front door, and at the back. Not at the garage, though. I went to the site below to see what definitions might apply to people and found the following. Number two below looks like the one we're talking about.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=doormat

quote:


door·mat ( P ) Pronunciation Key (dôrmt, dr-)
n.
1. A mat placed before a doorway for wiping the shoes.
2. Slang. One who submits meekly to domination or mistreatment by others.


Perhaps the definition provided for number two is what confuses people. Some don't understand how someone can't be a doormat if they submit to domination. Others just don't want to be mistreated. And there are those bottom toppers. Then you have people like me that read it and figure, wtf.

I guess the only way to figure this one out is to contact every submissive that doesn't want to be a 'doormat' and ask them what they were thinking about when they posted it.



SirSix72 -> RE: Does obedience = "doormat"? (10/7/2005 4:10:39 PM)

I do find this conversation quite interesting in the fact we all see or hear this term used by submissive or slaves and the way it comes across to me is that they have emotional issues that are disguised as a hard limit or a limit and if it is crossed then the phrase is thrown across at you "im no doormat", this is bottom topping at its finest,,,,emotional issues are meant to be over come through the guidence and direction of a Master,,,,things that are physically impossible is another topic in it self depending upon the situation one is faced with,,,,,

Master Six



JustaTop -> RE: Does obedience = "doormat"? (10/7/2005 4:54:54 PM)

Let's also try and remember that most masters are not professional therapists,shall we?

And that not every trauma and emotional issue can be solved with mere control and support dynamics. Many can no more be overcome than physical issues can be.

Most tops I see who constantly bitch about topping from the bottom seem to either suffer from god complexes,or simply refuse to accept that some incompatability issues are insurmountable. One cannot be "topped from the bottom" only annoyed by it.

Everything else is by will and choice. So the more pertinent question might be,"Why ARE you putting up with a person who only pisses you off?"

"Maybe it is YOU who are the ACTUAL masochist?"[;)]



Soulhuntre -> RE: Does obedience = "doormat"? (10/7/2005 10:24:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadiesBladewing
I would consider a servant who would ruin him or herself to finish a task to be, in fact, ruining my property. I value my property, so suffice to say, such behavior would not suit our arrangement well.


That is a common point of view to be sure. It is one I usually share - to a point. Obviously my property has a requirement to preserve themselves (protect my property)... but like all my property it could concievably need to be expende in an extreme circumstance.



SirSix72 -> RE: Does obedience = "doormat"? (10/8/2005 12:16:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JustaTop

Let's also try and remember that most masters are not professional therapists,shall we?

And that not every trauma and emotional issue can be solved with mere control and support dynamics. Many can no more be overcome than physical issues can be.

Most tops I see who constantly bitch about topping from the bottom seem to either suffer from god complexes


While I appreiciate a good debate what you do is up to you my friend,,,if you are a role player then indeed you are,,,if you are a lifestyler then you are,,,,,,I really dont have a problem with relationship incompatabilities,,,,

Most emotional issues are solved with mere control and support dynamics,,, if ya cant control the issues alone then what do you do???find a support group and work through the issue,,or a Master to giude you through this issue,,,its about micro managment,,,maybe somethiing that ya havent picked up on in the last ten years or simply not enough conviction to find the resolve to get through it,,,,some run from scene to scene not wanting to be responsible for thier actions,,,alot find this lifestyle and lose their ability to not play and look a little farther into the dynamics of the lifestyle,,,but to each his/her own,,,,like I stated your choice to conform to play is your decision,,,,,,,I dont not like you for it nor do I like you for it ,,,meaningless to me what you do or care

Master Six



JustaTop -> RE: Does obedience = "doormat"? (10/8/2005 1:08:21 AM)

You sure read a lot into a few short sentences in a profile,psych major.

1. I'm not a casual player. I have taken the past year and a half off from dating,totally celibate. And I left the local "player scene' here in total disgust,going on four years back now.

2. Someone who keeps making repetitious comments about things like "toppers from the bottom' has obvious insecurity issues with the behavior,or it would not be brought up so much. Physician,heal thyself.[;)]

3. The need for micromanagement implies dysfunction to me. It means one of more of the participants is somehow lacking,to require this to happen. Competent adults do things on thier own,out of pure self interest. They don't require babysitters.

4. I have no need to "work through" anything,I did that quite well on my own. I used to live in a fantasy world very much resembling your own. I grew up.

5.What I find appealing these days,is kink for fun,not to try to live it. This is silly to me,since I prefer adult on adult dynamics now. Competence appeals to me,nutcases and wounded birds do not.

6. And if you don't care,why bother to reply? I generally ignore people I don't care about. the opposite of love is not hate-it's indifference[:D]



IronBear -> RE: Does obedience = "doormat"? (10/8/2005 2:48:42 AM)

Doormat ~ submissive ~ slave …. Hah!! “A rose by another name is still a rose”. Just the thorns, perfume and colour is different…. You can refer to any kajira in my collar as a door mat and my reply will be a resounding: “She may be a door mat to you but - - - she is my doormat and she will not lay down for you at any time or in any place. Try to make her and she will have my permission to remove your balls off with her teeth!” …. Hmmm does this make me a sadist or her one? I shall ponder that question over a glass or two of Poteen.



KnightofMists -> RE: Does obedience = "doormat"? (10/8/2005 10:27:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterHyde

I see a lot horseshit here. I think your request was perfectly normal. All you did was tell her to pass on a message. If she couldn't do a simple thing like that without turning it into a circus, then you are better off without her.

The people who told her she was right on this were handicapped two ways. First of all, they no doubt heard this story through HER interpretation. They only heard your side of it as SHE interpreted it. Secondly, they've all been brainwashed by SCC mandates that dominants can't dominate unless the submissive gives her approval. Too many think that submission means what you're told only when you feel like it, and only when it's something you would have done yourself if no asked. Anything outside of that is dismissed as wrong or unhealthy.

Doormat is nothing more than derogatory term used to insult others. Here's a clue I use myself. When I see a so-called slave or submissive use the phrase "I'm not a doormat" I move along quietly. Nine times out of ten, this is a warning sign to me. The person who uses this phrase is NOT submissive, NOT obedient, and NOT going to be compatible with my needs. I'm sure there are exceptions. But when I'm sorting out which people to approach, and which ones to avoid, this rule saves me a lot of trouble.


Interesting... the people that gave her an opinion are handicapped because they only heard her side of the story. Then these same people are brainwashed??? mmmm guess you know these same people that she talked to, I know I don't know them and really don't care one way or the other.

So how is it that this situation of this Dominant expressing his interpretation of the same situation to this group of um "enlightened minds" suppose to be different than um the opinions her brain washed internet buddies. Sounds like a double standard to me.!!!

Some people think their bullshit don't stink like others!!! that it is somehow devoid the unpleasant odor that is so common with others.



SirSix72 -> RE: Does obedience = "doormat"? (10/8/2005 2:32:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists


Interesting... the people that gave her an opinion are handicapped because they only heard her side of the story. Then these same people are brainwashed??? mmmm guess you know these same people that she talked to, I know I don't know them and really don't care one way or the other.

So how is it that this situation of this Dominant expressing his interpretation of the same situation to this group of um "enlightened minds" suppose to be different than um the opinions her brain washed internet buddies. Sounds like a double standard to me.!!!



I wouldnt call it a double standard,,,it is really a simple protocol the if she submits to the care of another over her then the One that has the control makes the decisions,,,whom you speak with,,,,when and how you speak if you even get to speak at all,,this is called training not brainwashing,,but then again this is my opinion

Master Six



LadiesBladewing -> RE: Does obedience = "doormat"? (10/8/2005 3:03:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Soulhuntre

That is a common point of view to be sure. It is one I usually share - to a point. Obviously my property has a requirement to preserve themselves (protect my property)... but like all my property it could concievably need to be expende in an extreme circumstance.


Yes, with due consideration, I would have to agree. There may be situations where I would expect our servant(s) to place the House, as a whole, and the requirements of their service above and beyond their own well-being.

No concept can be applied indiscriminately to every situation, I suppose. It becomes rapidly apparent that there are always exceptions, and that these will require the ability to evaluate a situation as it arises, and -attempt- to do the right thing. Sometimes one will be wrong, and the situation will have the opportunity to be clarified for future's reference, and such is how we learn. *smiles*

Lady Zephyr



KnightofMists -> RE: Does obedience = "doormat"? (10/8/2005 3:42:08 PM)

In understanding Doormat... first understand Obedience

Obedience - "The quality or state of being obedient"

Obedient - "submissive to the restraint or command of authority"

So... one is obedient to that who has authority. In D/s relationships it is critical to understand who has the authority.

So... How is the authority in the relationship established? What are the parameters that restraint and command can be exercised onto the submissive person? In D/s relationships this dynamic of authority that results into Power of Control will vary from relationship to relationship. What one Dominant is able to do in one D/s relationship can be strictly limited for a Dominant in another relationship. You need to examine for yourself and answer for yourself... Did you have the Authority... was this Authority - Negotiated or was it Assumed! Many Dominants find themselves fighting a furious battle when they attempt to exercise their authority beyond their mandate! Authority is not always negotiated; it can be acquired thru the course of daily living. This is particularly noticeable in long term relationships... ask a submissive in a long term relationship all the examples of control that their Dominant has... then ask exactly when did they negotiate that away, I would be very surprised if you don't find a significant amount that wasn't just given or taken. The expanding of authority (power of control) is a natural course in D/s relationships. It can have a very formal edge to it... but it also has a very informal process that is often more powerful than the surface waters would seem to indicate.

Doormat - "one that submits without protest to abuse or indignities"

When someone hears the term doormat, they often bring into context the whole aspect of abuse and it can be a very inflammatory term when used against you. However, remember it is a defensive measure or protest! So what are they protesting... when it is used as a reason to not be obedient, My first question is... Does one have the Authority... how is that authority established! Dominants make mistakes... they can and do reach areas that they have no authority and a submissive can and will protect this ground. It should also be noted... that the Dominant does have due authority established and in fact the submissive person is attempting to give beyond their ability to obey and submit. When one considers the legitimate reason for this terms existence.... consider that it is a means to communicate a PROTEST! Now this protest can be full of justification, or is just might be unjustified. You need to have your own answers to that.

So some questions for you to answer for yourself

Did you have authority!! Was it formally and clearly negotiated and established... or was it acquired informally and became the norm of expected behaviors in the relationship.
Was her protest in response to you exceeding your formal established authority or was it a protest to informally gained authority... this can be a significant difference.... sometimes a submissive suddenly sees and calls a halt... wait a minute I didn’t give that... this is just opportunities to establish the lines of authority.

OR maybe this person was protesting not because you exceed your right of authority... but her ability to comply.

In the end, your relationship ended... I detect a wise introspective consideration of this relationship on your part. Nothing is a failure unless we refuse to learn from the experience.




KnightofMists -> RE: Does obedience = "doormat"? (10/8/2005 3:52:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SirSix72

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists


Interesting... the people that gave her an opinion are handicapped because they only heard her side of the story. Then these same people are brainwashed??? mmmm guess you know these same people that she talked to, I know I don't know them and really don't care one way or the other.

So how is it that this situation of this Dominant expressing his interpretation of the same situation to this group of um "enlightened minds" suppose to be different than um the opinions her brain washed internet buddies. Sounds like a double standard to me.!!!



I wouldnt call it a double standard,,,it is really a simple protocol the if she submits to the care of another over her then the One that has the control makes the decisions,,,whom you speak with,,,,when and how you speak if you even get to speak at all,,this is called training not brainwashing,,but then again this is my opinion

Master Six


interesting... you don't think it is a double standard that she can give her opinions and feelings to brainwashed SCC cohorts and their opinion be all wrong... But the OP can express his opinion and people can just jump up and say he is right she is wrong without consideration for her point of view.... mmmmmmmm

Fact is.. there is three sides... her side - his side... and somewhere there is the side of the truth... and NONE of us here is truly privy to that side.



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