RE: feelings of worthlessness (Full Version)

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CitizenCane -> RE: feelings of worthlessness (8/26/2005 11:40:42 AM)

Skipping lightly over the fine examples of self-delusion presented here and getting back to the topic of the OP, I think that Faramir's model is quite a bit more useful than most in play. However, I do think that there are women with sufficiently great issues of self-worth as to be distinguishable from those that are more in the 'teen-angst' stage of things (and, please, I'm only referring to women here because that's the context of the OP). In those cases, I think the dominant has to have some real understanding of the kinds of issues that lead to low self-worth, and to make an honest assessment of their own capabilities of dealing with them. Putting aside abusers and predators for the moment, an ethical dominant needs to, at the very least, be responsible for their own reactions to the manifestations of low self-worth that are bound to arise in such a relationship, and be able to moderate them in such a way as not to do further harm. I'm sure to many this smacks of deliberately asking to be topped from the bottom, but for my money if you're not willing to accomodate the realities of the emotional/mental health of your submissive, you ought to move on to someone with a different set of issues.
Depending on the strength and source of such issues, they can really take the fun out of a relationship for extended periods of time. If you're not up for that, give the whole thing a miss.

Cane



MasterHyde -> RE: feelings of worthlessness (8/26/2005 1:58:15 PM)

There are already three pages of responses to this, and I haven't read all of them yet. I'm going to try and add a few of my own thoughts outside of what may or may have been said.

Personal ethics vary widely. One person's obligation is another person's complete waste of time. So, I can't really tell you what one MUST do or even what one SHOULD do. I can tell that my own values and beliefs are strongly in favor of helping someone like this to feel whole again. I would give her the structure and security she seeks, while at the same time doing whatever possible to restore her self esteem.

I can tell you from personal experience that this isn't easy. There is a fine line between feeding a person's needs and using those needs to push her further into an unhealthy emotional state. The is another fine line between being supportive and becoming a "vanilla" partner. The second line is one I crossed myself unintentionally in a past relationship. While I still believe she needed me to be understanding, she also needed me to be firm. She needed me to push her limits. She needed me to remember that she was my slave, and to treat her accordingly.

Believe me when I tell you this is a lot easier to discuss than it is to carry out. There nuances to every relationship. Each person is unique, with unique needs and unique talents. All I can say is if you ever find yourself in this position, ask yourself what this person means to you. If you are willing to put in the effort, and to deal with what may be months or even years of frustratingly slow growth, then go right ahead. She will love you all the more for it. But make sure you are in it for the long haul. If you go into this expecting it to be short and easy, and you quit before the job is done, you will only cause her more pain. Worst of all, you will make it even harder for the next person who wants to make her whole again.




Amaros -> RE: feelings of worthlessness (8/26/2005 5:10:10 PM)

quote:

sorry chief but this lil gray duck never fit the-norm. it's why so many on the net hate me coz i am not part of the small minded sheep.
And you don't derive any satisfaction from imagining all these people losing sleep over you?

Everybody in here nearly makes a point of how different from everybody else they are - guess what? We're all different form each other, the process of sexual selection makes us all unique mutants in a certain sense, all little lights in the darkness - many just don't realize it or find it uncomfortable, that's all.

quote:

I've never met a submissive who didn't at some point wrestle with feelings of worthlessness and self-doubt over thier psycho-sexuality. In particular after very intense encounters, those feelings, even in submissives who generally accept their psycho-sexuality can well up. I think it is pretty understandable. When you look at yourself in the miror a few days later and say, "I had X, Y and Z done to me and I liked it - even asked for more. Why?" We are socialized to think that most BDSM activity is shameful, sick, even horrific. Beyond socialization, many submissives have a fundamentally conflicted state in their psycho-sexuality that cannot be "resolved" because it is the crux, the keystone: If you need to be "made" to do things, if you want edge or fear play, their is prima facia confliction. The whole point of that sort of psycho-sexuality is "I crave/fear X."


Well said: overcoming these enculturated inhibitions is in large part, what all of BDSM is about I think. It's often characterized as "animalistic", but in a very real sense, I think it's more like a political statement, asserting your humanity against a social system that often seems to do it's level best to reduce you to the level of a herd animal, and replace your soul with a billboard.

Then again maybe it's just that darned DRD4 7R allele.



curvyslavegirl -> RE: feelings of worthlessness (8/26/2005 8:43:51 PM)


There are many reasons why people are brought into a D/s lifestyle, usually out of a need for balance in one way or another. This seems to be especially true of weekend play types. There are those who are attracted to the gothic like scenes you can find in dungeon themed clubs, there are strong business men who need to let go by meeting with Pro Dommes on the weekend, there are abused and lost women who desperately need someone to take their hand and help them through life ....
As to whether it hurts or hinders .. i think it depends on the end goal and whether you're willing to stick it through till the end. If things get hard and you give up on her it would be worse. If things get difficult and you work through it with her it will most likely make her stronger.
I knew a Dom who almost exclusively preferred working with emotionally damaged submissives. He was proud of the fact that he was able to mentor, explore and work with women who felt lost and then would set them free. He used to call it setting free the butterflies.



ElektraUkM -> RE: feelings of worthlessness (8/27/2005 2:28:50 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Faramir

I've never met a submissive who didn't at some point wrestle with feelings of worthlessness and self-doubt over thier psycho-sexuality. In particular after very intense encounters, those feelings, even in submissives who generally accept their psycho-sexuality can well up.


At risk of being accused of being delusional... I don't think I've ever had feelings of worthlessness arising out of my sexuality. I have had feelings of worthlessness ~fleeting and not so fleeting ~ about other matters: my contribution to society, my work, and so on. But never (I dare state) about my sexuality, my desire to be 'taken' (by the man of my choice!).

Now I'm not saying I haven't wondered about my sexuality. I think I've probably wondered about far too many aspects of myself over the years! But I don't think this has been any more significant than the wondering about whether sexual feelings in general are 'wrong' or 'perverted'. I'd put these musings in the same league as those doubts about sex that we all go through as human beings.

I think the key word for me is 'worthlessness'. Questioning? yes. Feelings of lack of worth? No.

Now back to the OP.

I think Veav answered best for me ~ that the response to these questions has to be contextual. I'd also especially agree with this:

quote:

ORIGINAL Veav:

I'd say the distinction lies in whether or not this theoretical sub has rationally acknowledged the drive within her and its source. So long as she has made a conscious decision to accept this part of her, who am I to say otherwise?


There's a lot to be said for understanding one's own motivations. Blindly thrashing around with only the vaguest notion of why we're doing things, why it's all going wrong, and why we're feeling so bad is a very poor way to live. To live in the dark like that, and rely on a dom (or a sub, or any other kind of partner) to make us feel 'good' about ourselves is not only getting us nowhere, it's also very draining on those who interact with us. Living in the dark about ourselves only creates drama (imho). The more conscious we are of who we are (however 'bent' or 'broken' or fabulous, as it turns out), the more we can exploit our kinks and have a fullfilling life. This goes for sub, dom, and everyone else.

~ Elektra



pinkpleasures -> RE: feelings of worthlessness (8/27/2005 9:18:35 AM)

quote:

This is not right.. But then our Medical system in this country is not right and that those people that need help should be allowed to get it. And not resort to the "largesse" of some wannabe "DOM" who wants to use a vulnerable person for their own personal reasons.

Kinkypupper


Every county in the USA has a county mental health board, funded primarily by the federal government, in which anyone can obtain needed mental health care on a sliding scale according to income. Most such boards will also provide expensive psycotropic drugs free of charge or at a de minimus amount.

To locate the board in your county, call your county commissioner's office and ask the staffer to provide you with the board's name and phone number.

Net, call the board and ask for an intake appointment. If you are evaluated and found to be suffering from a mental illness/mood disorder/etc. you will be offered care.

pinkpleasures



pinkpleasures -> RE: feelings of worthlessness (8/27/2005 9:26:47 AM)

quote:

I don't think that my former dom had any obligation to foster a sense of self-worth in me, but at the same time I am displeased that he took the time to enhance my feelings of worthlessness. It is not a good way to live, and I wish that more people in that situation could realize their way out of it.

haematopoiesis


haematopoiesis, i think your "former Dom" was, in reality, just an abusive man with a working knowledge of BDSM. When i TRIED to post a thread on avoiding such men, it went so far sideways, it was pulled. However, you are a living example of what can be accomplished by listening to your intuition, your inner voice.

i am so glad you have found peace and happiness now.

pinkpleasures



pinkpleasures -> RE: feelings of worthlessness (8/27/2005 9:30:50 AM)

quote:

LMFAO

Trust me; caitlyn has no such feelings. If ever there were a self-assured person, it would be her.

I think you misread her post.

LovingMaster


Once again, it seems You have an "issue" with me unrelated to the thread or my post. And once again, i offer to resolve it privately.

No one, having no real life knowledge of caitlyn, would have read her post as anything other than i did ; a possible need for assistance. If there is no such need, that's great.

pinkpleasures



pinkpleasures -> RE: feelings of worthlessness (8/27/2005 9:35:43 AM)

quote:

I hope younger, less experienced people in BDSM who read this thread will carefully consider the model presented by many of the earlier posters. By dividing submissives into a weak and strong pile (and who the fuck would ever classify themselves as weak prey - "Oh, weak little doormat - yea that's me."??) we create a false construct where the submissive who has understandable (perhaps even healthy?) self-doubt, and needs re-assurance of worth has to label themself a weakling.

I propose instead a model where submission and masochism can be expected to cause some level of confliction and self-doubt, and that it is not a sign of weakness to question, doubt, and seek assurance.

Faramir


i found Mercnbeth's reply worth reading, as i did Yours. However, Faramir, You have no more claim to being "right" than Mercnbeth, and frankly, i feel better informed for having heard divergent views.

i still think Your posts would be more effective without the insults.

pinkpleasures



Lordandmaster -> RE: feelings of worthlessness (8/27/2005 9:41:15 AM)

Do you plan on getting the permission of the people whose quotes you're going to use in that book?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Faramir

I've been collecting material for my "Big Book of D/s" for two years. The best stuff I have is from submissive women who are insightful and articulate - in correspondence over the years, on occaision one will write something electrifyingly true and clear. I remember a girl at b.com trying to articulate how she felt when her Dom raped her ass, hurt and cored her without hesition. "I feel," she told me, "I feel incandescent when I am used without regard for how it hurts."

I just nodded - that's it, you know? Someone nailed it in words. So yea, when I have enough material I am going to write a D/s book.




pinkpleasures -> RE: feelings of worthlessness (8/27/2005 9:43:27 AM)

quote:

We enter into partnerships, D/s and others, because we are looking to have some needs fulfilled. And that is fine. I think the danger is when we think that a) someone is going to fix us without us having to work for it or b) that this one person can meet all our needs. Otherwise, why not explore our issues with our partners as long as we are aware of our process.

- LA


i could not agree more. There is a HUGE difference between having a scar on your soul and having a want/need to be rescued from one's own demons. Frankly, i'd doubt the veracity of A/anyone my age who claimed they came through life unscathed. However this may affect a healthy D/s relationship; nothing ever relieves one of responsibility for one's own self.

pinkpleasures



pinkpleasures -> RE: feelings of worthlessness (8/27/2005 9:48:29 AM)

quote:

LadyAngelika
I agree with Faramir (stop the presses!) that this isn't a black or white issue.
=====
You can agree with whomever You wish to. but "I"........DO..........see it as black n white! my LIFE is black n white in MY head. it is from my o.c.d.
so if YOU or anyone else has an issue with the FACT! that "I" never had to worry coz i know what life is about from an early age, then it IS indeed YOUR issue, coz "I" know what i am talking about in MY life. i drive every head shrink crazy coz i have answers to questions THEY didnt even ask yet and i have-to present it to em in the session..and they sit there stunned...

wolfie

y'all have a good day, even if ya DO hate me.

lonewolf05


i for one enjoy your posts very much, lonewolf05. i recognise the truth and heartfelt manner in which you write. i am not a psychologist, but life experience and common sense tell me that OF COURSE you were aware of being feminine from an early age.

pinkpleasures



pinkpleasures -> RE: feelings of worthlessness (8/27/2005 9:50:14 AM)

quote:

Do you plan on getting the permission of the people whose quotes you're going to use in that book?

Lordandmaster


o Lam..You are so quick on the mark...LOL.

pinkpleasures



Faramir -> RE: feelings of worthlessness (8/27/2005 2:21:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ElektraUkM

At risk of being accused of being delusional... I don't think I've ever had feelings of worthlessness arising out of my sexuality. I have had feelings of worthlessness ~fleeting and not so fleeting ~ about other matters: my contribution to society, my work, and so on. But never (I dare state) about my sexuality, my desire to be 'taken' (by the man of my choice!).


~ Elektra


I queer my own sample - that is the nature of anecdotal experiences. Your personal experience is de facto valid, and my anecdotal experience is (in this area) broad and deep enough to be meaningful as part of the general discussion. I don't think you are delusional, but I don't think your experience is common.



CitizenCane -> RE: feelings of worthlessness (8/27/2005 5:39:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkpleasures

quote:

This is not right.. But then our Medical system in this country is not right and that those people that need help should be allowed to get it. And not resort to the "largesse" of some wannabe "DOM" who wants to use a vulnerable person for their own personal reasons.

Kinkypupper


Every county in the USA has a county mental health board, funded primarily by the federal government, in which anyone can obtain needed mental health care on a sliding scale according to income. Most such boards will also provide expensive psycotropic drugs free of charge or at a de minimus amount.

To locate the board in your county, call your county commissioner's office and ask the staffer to provide you with the board's name and phone number.

Net, call the board and ask for an intake appointment. If you are evaluated and found to be suffering from a mental illness/mood disorder/etc. you will be offered care.

pinkpleasures


Wow. I hardly know where to begin. Do you or your loved ones have any direct experience with county mental health operations? While there are certainly some well-meaning, and even some qualified and well-meaning people working for these establishments, they are seriously underfunded and understaffed and bound by procedures that seem to be designed to insure that people get too little care too late. They are essentially providers of last resort, and financial strictures compel them to minimize treatment availability for all but the most serious cases. Halting someone's downward spiral toward becoming a 'most serious case' tends to be low on the operational agenda.
It is true that these operations have a strong tendency toward prescribing and subsidizing psychotropic drugs, but in my observation this is of greater benefit to pharmaceutical companies than it is to patients. There is rarely the funding, and hence the will, to support interventions that require anything but the minimum of human involvement, although these are often more appropriate than handing out medication.
I'm not blaming county mental health systems, though there are certainly plenty of time-servers and pencil-pushers involved in them. They are simply not designed or funded in a way that would enable them to provide the kinds of services that many people need.

Cane



harmony3709 -> RE: feelings of worthlessness (8/27/2005 8:40:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Faramir

Lemme tell you something: Strong, together submissives aren't bullet proof - they still can wrestle with doubt.

I've never met a submissive who didn't at some point wrestle with feelings of worthlessness and self-doubt over thier psycho-sexuality. In particular after very intense encounters, those feelings, even in submissives who generally accept their psycho-sexuality can well up. I think it is pretty understandable. When you look at yourself in the miror a few days later and say, "I had X, Y and Z done to me and I liked it - even asked for more. Why?" We are socialized to think that most BDSM activity is shameful, sick, even horrific. Beyond socialization, many submissives have a fundamentally conflicted state in their psycho-sexuality that cannot be "resolved" because it is the crux, the keystone: If you need to be "made" to do things, if you want edge or fear play, their is prima facia confliction. The whole point of that sort of psycho-sexuality is "I crave/fear X."

I propose instead a model where submission and masochism can be expected to cause some level of confliction and self-doubt, and that it is not a sign of weakness to question, doubt, and seek assurance.


Excellent comment and thank you for expressing this issue so well. The first time I was involved in a scene that left marks, the next day when I looked in the mirror, I burst into tears and could not believe that someone had done that to me and that I had ALLOWED them to do it to me and then of course the final (and probably the worst) thought.......OMG, I actually ENJOYED it -- so what the hell was wrong with me!!!

Luckily going to munches and other events in my local community introduced me to other submissives, many, who said they had experienced the same or similar thoughts and feelings, and many indicated that they felt this way far beyond their first scene.

And even going beyond masochism, strong submissives are not bullet-proof........period. Oh for a book that could provide that knowledge!

Well said and I wish you success with your book,

harmony



Mercnbeth -> RE: feelings of worthlessness (8/27/2005 8:52:30 PM)

It's taken a while to post back at this thread because I really wasn't in disagreement with the dissenters in the context of their responses. I stand behind my initial post, but I can see the distinction in the persons who disagree. One is very basic, this was NEVER my goal when seeking a sub who would become my slave.
quote:

Faramir: Chapter 4 is "Slaping the Cunt Out of Her"

Physical exchanges were/are very important to me, but they are the easiest part of the process. There are virtually a never ending stream of opportunities who you can just "slap the cunt out" of; without concern or thought. If I were a hunter I'd equate it killing ducks being released from a cage into the sights of your shotgun while you sit in a heated blind drinking a six pack. There is no skill or even long term satisfaction from that experience. After going to NYC clubs for 10 years and on most nights seeing a sub bound under a sign that said "BEAT MY ASS PLEASE"; I just didn't see the point of it.

I'm not saying Faramir's position is wrong, but it's not my goal. Hell, I think maybe for the first nine years or so, I took advantage of the "signage subs". But then his goals and his needs don't have to be mine. For instance his slave, noted in his profile, is located in Atlanta, while he lists his location as North Carolina. Assuming this isn't exclusively a "cyber" relationship, I wouldn't be considering beth my slave living that distance apart. His personal goals must have been obtained and confirmed by his definition of Master/slave with considering to "slapping the cunt..." a part of it; the self worth aspect of the slave not part of it.

Is saying "did it-done it-wanted more" an indication of how old I'm getting, bragging, trying to establish a "higher-ground" or just bullshit? Again it doesn't matter. Even if it's all of the above it's still worked for us. I wanted a slave who not only was submissive but was proud of her submission. No matter what the humiliation, the pain, the exposure, or if the activity was diametrically opposed to her nature; I wanted someone who would have the confidence and high self worth to only care about being what in their heart and soul they knew they were - a slave. To be proud and knowing who you are is what makes it satisfying to me. To serve not because you need to purge feelings of guilt or self loathing, but to give up all pretense of humility to serve is a rare and valuable gift.

quote:

Master Hyde: If you go into this expecting it to be short and easy, and you quit before the job is done, you will only cause her more pain. Worst of all, you will make it even harder for the next person who wants to make her whole again.


It's the assumption of the "next person" that again was not considered in my initial response. I assumed just the opposite - there would NOT be a next person. But if there was, under the worse case such as my death, I would want beth strong enough not to feel any worthlessness in my absence. I know and would expect her to be a lot stronger now subsequent to our relationship than she was going into it. If I thought of it, it would have been another stated goal for us because it is THAT important.

quote:

electra: The more conscious we are of who we are (however 'bent' or 'broken' or fabulous, as it turns out), the more we can exploit our kinks and have a fulfilling life. This goes for sub, dom, and everyone else.


I think this says it exactly. "Morning Remorse" from last night's session should be an indication that something is wrong with what you are doing. A hangover after drinking too much serves a purpose to warn you that what you are doing isn't really healthy. I wouldn't want to experience any session hangover with my slave, subs and doms who have that "hangover" feeling of remorse should try and reconcile those emotions. I feel you have a much bigger opportunity of experiencing a "hangover" if the person you are with feels that their need for pain and/or humiliation comes from "worthlessness". When your partner has a "hangover" they are not much fun even if you don't.

I always said it takes a strong person to be a slave. I sought such a person and was lucky enough to find her. Our ideas and goals only had and have to, make sense to us. They do. To us, they aren't "bullshit"; just like for Faramir, having a slave out of state isn't bullshit either.



DomButNotForgotn -> RE: feelings of worthlessness (8/27/2005 11:07:12 PM)

I understand your concerns. People get into kink for many reasons. It is not for me to analyze them, cure them, or whatever. I enjoy spanking a sub, making her beg to climax, etc., and I am not about to psychoanalyze their reasons.

However, there was one sub I had a few years ago who said she was sexually abused by her father, and that gave me pause. I seriously thought about not going forward with her when she told me that. However, she was very much into the lifestyle at that point, much more than me in many ways, and after I aired my concerns, she reassured me that I was not "damaging" her in any way.



Fawne -> RE: feelings of worthlessness (8/28/2005 9:13:36 AM)

quote:

it takes a strong person to be a slave



Yes, it does.... and a stronger one to have a sense of humor



CitizenCane -> RE: feelings of worthlessness (8/28/2005 9:19:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth



"Morning Remorse" from last night's session should be an indication that something is wrong with what you are doing. A hangover after drinking too much serves a purpose to warn you that what you are doing isn't really healthy. I wouldn't want to experience any session hangover with my slave, subs and doms who have that "hangover" feeling of remorse should try and reconcile those emotions.


What's 'wrong' might not be with what you're doing, but what that's in conflict with in the submissive's head. It's quite natural for someone raised with certain cultural/moral expectations to feel conflict within when they act to break free of those expectations. I think the real issue is whether they are, in fact, breaking free, or are instead stuck in some cycle where they keep having the SAME regrets, conflicts and turmoil over and over again.
A life without internal conflict is one in which existing prejudices and expectations are never challenged. I don't happen to see that as a good thing.

Cane



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