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RE: Internal VS External Awareness - 1/10/2008 10:48:34 AM

velvetears

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quote:

ORIGINAL: amayos

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble
So, I've often heard it said that a Master knows the submissive better than the submissive knows themselves.

I have to wonder .. how much truth is there in that or.. is it just a myth?

I personally find the idea mildly absurd. The human mind is far too complex and amorphous to be taken for granted in this way. Such a bold and flat assumption on the part of the dominant party is the first step in the self-sabotage of authority and ability to properly govern.

i agree with this statement. i don't know why it is a common idea to state that, i have also heard that said many times. There are so many filters to go through that you can't know for sure how input is being processed from another person. You cannot be purely objective when listening. There are so many variable affecting what is being learned about a person - your own past experiences, desires, fears, etc - you would have to be one extremely self aware individual to assume you know someone else better than they know themselves.

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RE: Internal VS External Awareness - 1/10/2008 10:51:01 AM

SayaNereida

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quote:

So, I've often heard it said that a Master knows the submissive better than the submissive knows themselves.

I have to wonder .. how much truth is there in that or.. is it just a myth? If a myth, what's the purpose of perpetuating such a thing other than to satisfy an ego? Masters, do you think you know your submissive better than they know themselves? Submissives, does your Master know you better than you know yourself? Do you think the length of your involvement with BDSM and/or M/s has an impact on this knowledge of your partner and/or yourself?

Celeste

Does He know me better than I know myself, not at all. He hasn't had the thoughts, feelings and experiences I have; nor know the things or people that 'caused' those thoughts, feelings or experiences.

While He may not know all of me better, He does know the person I am now, the one that fits with Him.

In our case it has nothing to do with BDSM experience, I we both began at the same time together.

It has more to doin our case, I believe, with life experience, knowing ones self, knowing each other before and outside the BDSM relationship and His willingness to know me; as a person, a woman, a lover, etc; as well as the desire.

I can say that of all the things we have done and talked about doing, I cannot think of a single one I would have been willing to do with anyone in my past; so there is something He has or is that allows for the exploration; some days I wish I knew what that was, every day I'm just grateful for it.

He does know me better than anyone else, except myself.

Saya

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RE: Internal VS External Awareness - 1/10/2008 11:11:12 AM

ownedgirlie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

So, I've often heard it said that a Master knows the submissive better than the submissive knows themselves.

I have to wonder .. how much truth is there in that or.. is it just a myth? If a myth, what's the purpose of perpetuating such a thing other than to satisfy an ego? Masters, do you think you know your submissive better than they know themselves? Submissives, does your Master know you better than you know yourself? Do you think the length of your involvement with BDSM and/or M/s has an impact on this knowledge of your partner and/or yourself?

Celeste

I won't speak for others here so I can not possibly say if it is a myth or the truth. I will say I believe it can happen, and that when it does happen, it is not necessarily because of whatever negative assumption is often made about both parties.

I used to say this was the case for my Master and I. I have since come to learn it was a matter of awareness and wisdom more than it was a matter of who knows who better and why. I am certainly not in a competition with Mr. Wonderful. He may know me better in some areas and I may know me better in some areas. Perhaps he understands certain things better about myself because of his life experiences in comparison to my own. Perhaps he understands the whys or why nots better than me.

As I have come to be quite self aware, I can now take him down certain, previously hidden avenues within myself, and show him around. His desire to learn me is as strong as they come, and my own desire to continue to learn myself is equal to none.

I would say when he first came to know me, I did not know myself well at all, and he recognized familiar patterns in me which told him a story which I could not see. So yes, in the beginning it was safe to say he knew me better. Now we are discovering me together, and whichever of us might be "ahead" in that journey at any particular time is umimportant, however I do believe his interpretive skills remain more refined than my own, and there are often times when I bring something to him about myself that he is able to help me work through. And as my own assessment skills have greatly improved, he is less skeptical about some of my conclusions, and more prone to trust my conclusions at face value.

It's an interesting question, Celeste, but not a simple answer.

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RE: Internal VS External Awareness - 1/10/2008 11:57:07 AM

Honsoku

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

::scroll to the bold to get to the meat of the question - you have been warned!::

So, I've often heard it said that a Master knows the submissive better than the submissive knows themselves.

I have to wonder .. how much truth is there in that or.. is it just a myth? If a myth, what's the purpose of perpetuating such a thing other than to satisfy an ego? Masters, do you think you know your submissive better than they know themselves? Submissives, does your Master know you better than you know yourself? Do you think the length of your involvement with BDSM and/or M/s has an impact on this knowledge of your partner and/or yourself?

Celeste

I think it highly depends on the people in question. Some people are a lot better or more aggressive at introspection than others. Some people are better at understanding how others think. Other people are a lot better at sharing those insights about themselves (in the case of the submissive) or others (in case of the master). So it is not entirely a myth, but to say that "all masters" or "only masters" know their partners better than they know themselves is inaccurate.

I think the difference falls largely under approach. Some put a lot of effort into analyzing and understanding their partners, and others do not. Those that don't, will probably have no better idea of how their partner's mind works then their partner does. Those that do, even if they share it, can have an edge as they at least will probably be able to better predict their partner's reaction to new situations.

As a myth, there it is a lot of value in perpetuating it. The myth gives the "master" an aura of irresistible power, unbreakable control. If you believe that master knows you better than you know yourself, what choice do you have? How can you resist? Anything that you do must have been predicted by him. There becomes no point to resisting straightforward approaches because all master has to do is set things up the right way, and you will do it anyway. The myth will perpetuate as both sides have a vested interest in believing it. Though, as with almost all myths, there is a grain of truth to it.

Personally, there have already been several sections of her personality and how she has been making decisions which I have understood better in the last month than she has her whole life. On the flip side, I shared those insights which I thought were key, with her. Do I know her better than she knows herself? Not yet. However, the current trend indicates that I will at some point in the future.

My length of involvement gave me more pieces to work with, but not a better understanding of how to put pieces together. The primary impact of my understanding of a partner is from time spent together, questions asked, and behavior observed, not time spent in BDSM or M/s.

Honsoku

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RE: Internal VS External Awareness - 1/10/2008 12:13:21 PM

juliaoceania

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quote:

Submissives, does your Master know you better than you know yourself? Do you think the length of your involvement with BDSM and/or M/s has an impact on this knowledge of your partner and/or yourself?

He knows me pretty damn well, and sometimes it is like he knows me better than I know myself. Does he though? In some ways he knows me better than I know myself, in some ways he doesn't know me better than I know myself. I cannot separate the D/s component of our relationship from the rest, but I do think that he has to take efforts to know the things that make me tick in order to use them to exert power over me. I think that as time goes on this knowingness increases...

The interesting part of your question from my point of view, do I know him better than he knows himself? My answer would be the same, I know some things better than he does at times...

We human beings are not really completely objective about ourselves. Some of us are more objective than others, but it is not possible to be completely objective about our own shortcomings, our own flaws, how obsessive we seem to others. This is why Freud's theory about defense mechanisms still holds up.. people do defend their psyches against the things that they find the most disturbing about themselves.. the farther in denial they are about themselves, the less objective they can be... everyone has told themselves lies... it is the lies we tell about ourselves to our selves that are the most damaging....

Since denial is a ubiquitously in our human nature, and my Daddy and I are human... I would say that there are things that each of us can see about each other that the other doesn't see...

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RE: Internal VS External Awareness - 1/10/2008 12:57:27 PM

hejira92

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Hmmm, I've actually thought a lot about this subject.

I like to think I am a self-aware, complex person; multifaceted and high on Maslow's scale. But, somehow, He knows me like the back of His hand. (I'm flashing on the scene in Bull Durham- him, "You're so cute." her, "Cute! I'm not cute! I'm mysterious and sophisticated!" Yes, i know the quote is not exact... but whatever, you get the jist.)

I am familiar with the theories postulated by MasterFireMaam about the four areas of knowledge, but I have to disagree about the conclusion because Master sees not only the part of me that I don't see, but, because He is my Master, and probes do deeply, so often, into my mind, He also knows the private parts that only I would know.

So, He has the double knowledge and therefore knows me better than I do. Ok, to put simply- I know myself and my thoughts and reactions, but I can not perceive how others see me. Master knows my inner being AND my outer being.

And another scary thing- Master and my Mother ALWAYS agree on any issue in my life. They see me very similarly. And my Mother know me VERY well (all my life, in fact

).

So, my answer is, Yes, Master does know me better than I do myself.

< Message edited by hejira92 -- 1/10/2008 12:59:24 PM >

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RE: Internal VS External Awareness - 1/10/2008 1:01:33 PM

AquaticSub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

So, I've often heard it said that a Master knows the submissive better than the submissive knows themselves.

I have to wonder .. how much truth is there in that or.. is it just a myth? If a myth, what's the purpose of perpetuating such a thing other than to satisfy an ego? Masters, do you think you know your submissive better than they know themselves? Submissives, does your Master know you better than you know yourself? Do you think the length of your involvement with BDSM and/or M/s has an impact on this knowledge of your partner and/or yourself?

Celeste

Valyraen has insights into me that I don't see. But I have insights into him that he doesn't see.

My feeling is that it's something played up by those who enjoy relationships where the dominant/master molds and guides the submissive/slave - and I am not saying there is anything wrong with that. While life experience with other people can help someone can insights into another person, I don't think it's BDSM experience specifically that does this unless the insights were directly BDSM related.

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RE: Internal VS External Awareness - 1/10/2008 1:06:47 PM

OmegaG

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Littlepita

I'm not sure if he knows me better than I know myself or it's that he pays more attention to me than I do. If I'm in a frenzy I won't always know that I need is a good beating and a few dozen orgasms, but he, who watches so closely, always knows. I have gotten used to being under my Master's microscope and find great comfort in the fact that he takes his responsibility to me so seriously. Well....there are those moments.

I think this most closely aligns to my thoughts. I had an epithany one night when I was granted something I hadn't asked for, but it was just what I needed, and it struck me that it hadn't been the first time that this sort of thing had happened. I don't think he knows me better then myself as it took me 40 years to figure it out myself, but he is far more perceptive of my needs then I am.

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