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RE: A question on consent - 1/11/2008 2:44:52 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
What it did make Me think of is this:  If a person is ignorant (pls see definition of the word as lack of education/knowledge) of what their partner is doing, can they really give consent?  If they have no idea of what's going on, how can they truly agree that it is ok for their partner to go out and engage in the activity?


yeah there is a big difference between being ignorant of something specific and just being stupid.

and yes.... Ignorance is not a get out of jail free card of making a stupid decision of consent.

Consent is simply to give assent or approval of a particular choice.  But just because consent is recieved doesn't make it a wise decision or particularly informed.

But, I find it rather silly that some individuals think that "consent" is the save all to any negative consequences.... "Well you "consented" to it!"  It's like some sort of shield that alot of Tops/Dominants like to put on.  At the end of the day... consent is only as good as one's ability to maintain and uphold the decision in the first place.  This is why I am of the opinion that consent is a continuous choice and that all parties involved in the decision must continue to commit to that choice through their own behaviors/actions/thoughts/feelings.

Consent is one of those words that need a few descriptors to it to actually be effective... Ie  "Informed" Consent.  Sort of like Communication.  Just because we communicated... doesn't mean you understood what I said.  "Effective" communication is much better than just simply communication.

so.. it's not a question if it is consent.... the question is... will the consent be substained to everyone's satisfaction.

I suspect that Informed consent will be much more substainable that uninformed consent on the average.... but we do get lucky and give consent out of ignorance of a specific issue... and actually we also give consent out of trust for someone else's judgement on the specific issue.


_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: A question on consent - 1/11/2008 2:51:11 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
... and actually we also give consent out of trust for someone else's judgement on the specific issue.



What an awesome point, and so often overlooked.

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: A question on consent - 1/11/2008 4:03:34 PM   
adoracat


Posts: 1779
Joined: 2/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
For example, there are two people in a relationship.  One person wants to go out and explore BDSM.  The other has no idea of what that is.  After whatever discussion ensues, the partner gives consent to the other, but doesn't want to know anything about it.


Is that really giving consent?



ok...my hubby and i are poly.  we have been for 10+ years now.  his idea is that we each do our own thing, and he doesnt want a single detail from me, although i ask him how his time with the g/f went.

he knows some about me and what i do because he snoops.  then gets angry.  i offer to tell but he doesnt wish to hear it.  so...how does that work?  i offer but he refuses then gets mad because i do things a bit differently than he does?

kitten

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: A question on consent - 1/11/2008 4:08:05 PM   
darchChylde


Posts: 5279
Joined: 9/28/2006
From: Warm Springs, GA but i live in San Francisco.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: adoracat
ok...my hubby and i are poly.  we have been for 10+ years now.  his idea is that we each do our own thing, and he doesnt want a single detail from me, although i ask him how his time with the g/f went.

he knows some about me and what i do because he snoops.  then gets angry.  i offer to tell but he doesnt wish to hear it.  so...how does that work?  i offer but he refuses then gets mad because i do things a bit differently than he does?

kitten



this sounds like the gander wanted to have fun so agree the goose can play too, but the gander doesn't really want the goose out playing with anyone else


_____________________________

I'm the man your mother warned you about...
if only to keep me to herself.

I'm a male dominant switch whose experienced as a poly sub to a dominant woman
.
Where the fuck do I post?

Proud Owner and Protector of chyldeschylde.

(in reply to adoracat)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: A question on consent - 1/11/2008 4:52:55 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

What it did make Me think of is this:  If a person is ignorant (pls see definition of the word as lack of education/knowledge) of what their partner is doing, can they really give consent?  If they have no idea of what's going on, how can they truly agree that it is ok for their partner to go out and engage in the activity?


I can consent to not wanting to know something. If the situation was different and Valyraen wanted to go out and practice BDSM but I have no interest in it, I see no reason why I wouldn't be able to say, "Fine, go have fun. Don't be stupid, don't catch anything and keep it to yourself." If that partner wanted to learn the details, it's not difficult to pick up a book and learn.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: A question on consent - 1/11/2008 4:53:52 PM   
CalifChick


Posts: 10717
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

For example, there are two people in a relationship.  One person wants to go out and explore BDSM.  The other has no idea of what that is.  After whatever discussion ensues, the partner gives consent to the other, but doesn't want to know anything about it.

Is that really giving consent?


Yes, it's consent.  It is consent that the other person go out and explore BDSM. 

I'm not seeing where details are required for there to be consent, because no one requested consent for a specific, particular activity, with a reporting of how that activity went, but instead for the exploration of a broad group of activities.

I don't have to know that you're going to make tiramisu in order to consent to you cooking in my kitchen.

Cali


_____________________________

AKA "The Undisputed Goddess of Sarcasm", "Big Bad Cali" and "Yum Bum". Advisor to the Subbie Mafia, founding member of the W.A.C. and the Judgmental Bitches Brigade, member of the Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair-a's and Team Troll

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: A question on consent - 1/11/2008 4:54:02 PM   
Evility


Posts: 915
Joined: 12/19/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
Is that really giving consent?


Yes.

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: A question on consent - 1/11/2008 4:54:02 PM   
Macslittleimp


Posts: 50
Joined: 4/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: adoracat


ok...my hubby and i are poly.  we have been for 10+ years now.  his idea is that we each do our own thing, and he doesnt want a single detail from me, although i ask him how his time with the g/f went.

he knows some about me and what i do because he snoops.  then gets angry.  i offer to tell but he doesnt wish to hear it.  so...how does that work?  i offer but he refuses then gets mad because i do things a bit differently than he does?

kitten



I have to agree with my lil darch one on this...  Even though I could babble on regarding psychological issues that could be causing his anger I don't personally know your husband so that isn't fair.  The bottom line though?  He really has no right to be angry for things he "finds" while snooping as though you are hiding especially considering you are more than willing to tell him what he wants to know.  Those are his personal issues and unless it becomes a problem in your relationship it's something he needs to learn to deal with by himself.  He has consented in being poly, has had no problem with it for the past 10+ years, so unless he's ready to renegotiate he really doesn't have a leg to stand on.

P.S. ~ maybe he's jealous you are having more fun than he is? lol

_____________________________

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(in reply to adoracat)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: A question on consent - 1/11/2008 5:15:39 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick

I don't have to know that you're going to make tiramisu in order to consent to you cooking in my kitchen.

Cali



Oh hell, I do - my kitchen is sacred!!

(in reply to CalifChick)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: A question on consent - 1/11/2008 5:17:13 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick

I don't have to know that you're going to make tiramisu in order to consent to you cooking in my kitchen.

Cali



Oh hell, I do - my kitchen is sacred!!


My rule is: You cook in my kitchen, you clean it up and I get to eat some of it. Some of our friends live in dorms without kitchens so I get some tasty meals that way!

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: A question on consent - 1/11/2008 5:26:58 PM   
christine1


Posts: 6155
Joined: 12/15/2007
From: i'm headed to HIM...
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick

I don't have to know that you're going to make tiramisu in order to consent to you cooking in my kitchen.

Cali




did someone say tiramisu?  i'll get the coffee going!

_____________________________

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He is my Master, my lover, my best friend my everything.

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: A question on consent - 1/11/2008 5:39:59 PM   
CalifChick


Posts: 10717
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: California
Status: offline 		Owned!!! HUSH!!! I was trying to get someone to come make us all tiramisu.  Sheesh.

Cali


_____________________________

AKA "The Undisputed Goddess of Sarcasm", "Big Bad Cali" and "Yum Bum". Advisor to the Subbie Mafia, founding member of the W.A.C. and the Judgmental Bitches Brigade, member of the Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair-a's and Team Troll

(in reply to christine1)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: A question on consent - 1/11/2008 5:49:11 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick

Owned!!! HUSH!!! I was trying to get someone to come make us all tiramisu.  Sheesh.

Cali



Oh, OK....well I consent to that, then...carry on! 

(in reply to CalifChick)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: A question on consent - 1/11/2008 5:52:01 PM   
sammiebabygirl


Posts: 465
Joined: 10/23/2004
From: Upstate, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: darchChylde
sort of like any occasion a woman says "fine", seldom do that actually mean it


Ummm. Be careful with those generalizations.
 
jen
*who ALWAYS means what she says*

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(in reply to darchChylde)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: A question on consent - 1/11/2008 5:59:01 PM   
darchChylde


Posts: 5279
Joined: 9/28/2006
From: Warm Springs, GA but i live in San Francisco.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sammiebabygirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: darchChylde
sort of like any occasion a woman says "fine", seldom do they actually mean it


Ummm. Be careful with those generalizations.
 
jen
*who ALWAYS means what she says*


If you really want to nitpick, who am i to stop you?  Please look carefully at my wording, while it may be a generalization, it is not a statement of absolutes; see, the word "seldom" is in the place that the word "never" might be found.  That word "seldom" leaves you, and any other woman who chooses, plenty of room to be the exception.

go in love and peace,

oren


_____________________________

I'm the man your mother warned you about...
if only to keep me to herself.

I'm a male dominant switch whose experienced as a poly sub to a dominant woman
.
Where the fuck do I post?

Proud Owner and Protector of chyldeschylde.

(in reply to sammiebabygirl)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: A question on consent - 1/11/2008 6:15:13 PM   
GreedyTop


Posts: 52100
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Savannah, GA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

For example, there are two people in a relationship.  One person wants to go out and explore BDSM.  The other has no idea of what that is.  After whatever discussion ensues, the partner gives consent to the other, but doesn't want to know anything about it.


Is that really giving consent?


I believe there is such a thing as "consensual ignorance", and that a great many people are consensually ignorant about a great many things.
 
John


Well said...

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: A question on consent - 1/11/2008 6:20:25 PM   
GreedyTop


Posts: 52100
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Savannah, GA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: darchChylde

quote:

ORIGINAL: adoracat
ok...my hubby and i are poly.  we have been for 10+ years now.  his idea is that we each do our own thing, and he doesnt want a single detail from me, although i ask him how his time with the g/f went.

he knows some about me and what i do because he snoops.  then gets angry.  i offer to tell but he doesnt wish to hear it.  so...how does that work?  i offer but he refuses then gets mad because i do things a bit differently than he does?

kitten



this sounds like the gander wanted to have fun so agree the goose can play too, but the gander doesn't really want the goose out playing with anyone else



beat me to that response,Darch ...

honesty above all..if you cant handle it, get out..

an ugly truth is much better than a pretty lie, in my book.

(in reply to darchChylde)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: A question on consent - 1/11/2008 6:36:59 PM   
SlaveTurtleFL


Posts: 9
Joined: 8/21/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

For example, there are two people in a relationship.  One person wants to go out and explore BDSM.  The other has no idea of what that is.  After whatever discussion ensues, the partner gives consent to the other, but doesn't want to know anything about it.


Is that really giving consent?


I believe there is such a thing as "consensual ignorance", and that a great many people are consensually ignorant about a great many things.
 
John


Well said...

I think there's a lot of that going around, because the only real education most people get about BDSM comes from other players, and there is no other enlightening context for them to put it in.  So, when Spouse A tells Spouse B of his/her deep dark desires, and Spouse B has no context to put it in, the societal post traumatic stress disorder kicks in and Spouse B closets the matter. 

I think it is important to be understanding of our uninformed, unleathered vanilla folk.  I also think that many people who get into fetish have either already found their life or marriage partner before they self-actualized who they really were, or they cannot find a match in one person who bridges the gap between BDSM and vanilla life.  So, they need polyamory to be complete.  Sometimes that means polyamory without full disclosure.  Sometimes it means polyamory without any disclosure at all.

< Message edited by SlaveTurtleFL -- 1/11/2008 6:41:52 PM >

(in reply to GreedyTop)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: A question on consent - 1/11/2008 8:28:30 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		This is actually a concept employed in a lot of authority dynamics- the master doesn't get permission to do every single thing every single time.  Instead they get overarching authority over the entire spectrum. 

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"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to SlaveTurtleFL)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: A question on consent - 1/11/2008 9:25:12 PM   
Missokyst


Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		Usually when I hear the "my partner does not want to know the details", I tend to assume that the partner does not know at all.  I have heard it from married men who want to play around and ask for discretion, and from men who have long time girlfriends that do not understand, or they supposedly no longer have sexual relations with, though they feel obligated to stay.
If they are ok with it they don't need the blow by blow details, but I at least would like to know if their partner is open for a short meeting for coffee, ect.  That's when I hear the part about the couple living separate lives. 
Kyst

_____________________________

pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding ~Gibran, Kahlil

“The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for.”
― Bob Marley


(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 40
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