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What do you give up? - 1/13/2008 6:19:38 AM   
LadyHathor


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I was going to post this in the Mistress section and yet I think an open forum for all to see and respond to may be better served--this thought came to Me when I was half awake this morning and solidifed by MistressofGA post on gifts. One of the things I enjoy doing is peeling back the layers of the onion as they say, delving into the psyche, the motivators, the manifestatons that others exhibit in their interpretation of this lifestyle and hope along the way to bash some generalizations ( ok removing rose colored glasses now)--so here goes:
 
Domina's almost always hear that we take, take, take, take. That we ask for money, suck the financial life out of boys and live life as The Lady Chablis says " shopping, under hair dryers and at the manicurist at someone else'e expense".  Yes. there are many like that just as there as many Doms like that etc etc, but I want to hear what you DO give up and have given up for Your submissive--no matter how big or small,  it could be what You give up, what you give away, what energy and time do you give--let's talk about how it isn't all about Us.
 
I was going to start, but when I try, it sounds like a whine and that is not My intent, so give Me a few and after some of you respond, I will have My thoughts gathered better for My side of the story.
 

edited for a typo because My nails are too long!

< Message edited by LadyHathor -- 1/13/2008 6:21:09 AM >


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RE: What do you give up? - 1/13/2008 6:33:08 AM   
thetammyjo


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What do I give up for Fox?

I don't feel like I give up anything.

Oh, I suppose I gave him my play room when he moved in because now it is his bedroom.

I supposed some folks might think I gave up being "normal" or that I take a risk in my career by having him -- then those aren't people or positions I want frankly.

Being married and settled honestly meant that I don't give up things when someone new joins the household because that new person isn't what the family is built around -- it's built around me and husband others get added in and we work hard to make sure the are compatible before then join.

I think being dominant also means I would give up a bit less but then I also take on more responsibility, more need for time management, and the need to delegate more to others. I don't see that as giving up anything though simply as requiring more from me.

I think that in my household being a slave does mean giving up more but I suspect very strongly that it is balanced by what is gained when looked at over all.

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RE: What do you give up? - 1/13/2008 6:55:01 AM   
Rover


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I have never given up anything for a partner, and a partner has never given up anything for me.  We each share everything we have with each other.
 
John

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RE: What do you give up? - 1/13/2008 7:06:47 AM   
LadyHathor


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Perhaps I worded it badly as I don't want us to get hung on the words "give up"--
 
quote:

it could be what You give up, what you give away, what energy and time do you give

 
If you note, I also stated, what do you give? I think that is where I'd like to see us focused more, what do we give-better yet what do we invest?
 
(this is where I had to reach not to make it whine in this post) For Me, I give My time and attention to their development, emotional balance, emotional well being. I give them My ear to listen to their desires and wants in life, I give My wisdom and guidance to do well in a career or a job--I give them patience-I give them freedom to be who and what they are--perhaps the word give isn't right and it needs to be what do we invest? What energies do we put forth?
 
I've invested time, money, energy and emotion.

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RE: What do you give up? - 1/13/2008 7:22:07 AM   
Rover


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHathor

I think that is where I'd like to see us focused more, what do we give-better yet what do we invest?


I stand by my earlier statement... we share everything we have with one another.  Two whole people capable of sharing themselves with their partner, and if something should happen and we need to part, we walk away as we came... two whole people capable of sharing themselves with a partner.
 
John

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RE: What do you give up? - 1/13/2008 7:42:04 AM   
Gwynvyd


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As a Domme I have never asked for a single thing of my boys... not a gift or a trinket. I have occasionaly taken trips with one, and recived birthday gifts... but then so have they. I fully share my life and finances with my girl. She has been a house wife for 6 years. Only working durring that time for short periods when she grew bored.

With all of us it is give and take on all sides. We all give our time, and effort to make one another happy and to feel fulfilled.

In finacial domination I believe it is because there is a need on a submissives side to have a fixation on a mistress, but not a true bond... you are not emotionaly invested. You are not going to hold her hand in the hospital.. you are not going to go to her birthday party, you are not going to be at her childs play at school. She is performing a service for you... that in most cases you the submissive dictate within reason how you wish it to be played out. " I like to be flogged, I like to be spanked while wearing womens panties, I like to be called I dirty girl" Her role is no more personal in my mind then a mechanic fixing your car. Would you bitch about a mechanic charging for thier labor costs in fixing your car? I bet a lot of you would... what they were supposed to do it because they *like to fix cars* ?

I do not do that style do domination.. but I do understand the need for it. Many "submissives" need that outlet. I would never take on someone who is merely a fetishist who would not be invested in me.. and there to get thier own ya-yas off. Sadly that is how I see it.

I guess that is why it irks the living shit out of me when people who are not mine call me Mistress... I am not your Mistress... Only a couple have earned the right to call me that. Or when they claim in the first corospondance undying loyalty, and unwavering desire to do what ever I ask of them no matter what.  Again that smacks of play actors there to get thier own ya-yas off, call someone, any one a Mistress and live out thier own personal little fantasy and whom they do it with matters not.. they are merely a tool that can be a sounding board. Used and moved on to the next person that they will get a better reaction from. Sort of akin to a masterbatory sleeve that didnt work quite right but they found a better model.  

And they wonder why they have to pay for some one to spank thier asses?

Here is a clue... give a shit about someone else then yourself. Honestly and truely care. Listen to the other person...
Dont hunt down your orgasim.. it is not the end all be all of life.. if it is for you then you deserve to pay for sex. Or for your kink. Be up front.. "I dont give a shit about anyone else.. I just want to get off.. and I am willing to pay."

And for the love of fuck dont whine about it.

Positive draws positive.

If you care for others.. and for someone else other then yourself it will show. If you are just a greedy asshole then that is all you will find. Karma is a bitch that way.

Sorry if some may see this as harsh.. but soooooo many peoples reality checks have seemingly bounced.

Gwyn 

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RE: What do you give up? - 1/13/2008 7:52:16 AM   
LadyHathor


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THIS was brilliant! Absolutely Brilliant!! I love the line: "hunt down their orgasms"--this is one post I will read and reread---very well stated.
 
Yes positve draws positive and when we care more about the other than we care about ourselves, beauty happens.
 
Martini?

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RE: What do you give up? - 1/13/2008 8:15:37 AM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHathor

I think that is where I'd like to see us focused more, what do we give-better yet what do we invest?


I stand by my earlier statement... we share everything we have with one another.  Two whole people capable of sharing themselves with their partner, and if something should happen and we need to part, we walk away as we came... two whole people capable of sharing themselves with a partner.
 
John


I wonder why you dislike the term "investment"? I think of my relationships with others as investments. I invest my time, resources, energy, and love into people... and I do so with the expectation that they return it back (love is unconditional, relationships aren't). For me D/s is a power exchange, we both  are giving something. Sometimes relationships are hard, sometimes it feels like a sacrifice, sometimes we do not feel as though we get what we invest back.

I have never had a deep meaningful relationship that left me the way I went into it. In some way I felt either minimized by the relationship at the time, or I felt my life enriched by it in some way.. but change happened... but that is just me




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RE: What do you give up? - 1/13/2008 8:31:07 AM   
thetammyjo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHathor

Perhaps I worded it badly as I don't want us to get hung on the words "give up"--

quote:

it could be what You give up, what you give away, what energy and time do you give


If you note, I also stated, what do you give? I think that is where I'd like to see us focused more, what do we give-better yet what do we invest?

(this is where I had to reach not to make it whine in this post) For Me, I give My time and attention to their development, emotional balance, emotional well being. I give them My ear to listen to their desires and wants in life, I give My wisdom and guidance to do well in a career or a job--I give them patience-I give them freedom to be who and what they are--perhaps the word give isn't right and it needs to be what do we invest? What energies do we put forth?

I've invested time, money, energy and emotion.


Time and energy really. But I think that's the same that any good submissive or slave invests as well.

Since I'm poly any dynamic also requires some investment from everyone involved. Tom has to give time and energy to Fox and Fox to him not nearly as much as they give to me and receive from me but still we are all involved.

Since I'm the head of household I think I probably invest a lot more of my time management skills than anyone else. I'm the person who keeps track of everything but that's just who I am. If Fox weren't a slave but offspring, I'd still be the person who managed all of that time and appointments, etc.

It feels far more like work when I'm training a potential because there is no promise things will continue beyond the training contract. Once I own someone I consider that a lifetime commitment so it feels differently.

I don't know if this is what you're looking for, LadyHathor.

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TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

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RE: What do you give up? - 1/13/2008 8:36:59 AM   
Evility


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHathor
 Yes. there are many like that just as there as many Doms like that etc etc


I'm sorry but from what I have read and seen this tribute protocol is almost exclusively the domain of the female dominant/male submissive dynamic. The situations seem almost 180 degrees out of phase. Male submissives vie for the attention of female dominants often with tribute in hand while the female submssive sorts through the offers of prospective male dominants to find The One worthy of her gift of submission.

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RE: What do you give up? - 1/13/2008 8:39:38 AM   
LadyPact


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While I understand the intent of the post, I don't especially agree with the wording of what I 'give up' for My submissive.  Of course, there are certain allowances made.  Certainly, because of My personal situation, I sometimes sleep less.  I make accomidations for My life to be intertwined as a circle of three, rather than just be a part of a couple.  I have an emotional investment that sometimes includes additional worry in My life for My submissive and those close to him.  There are times My personal schedule is rearranged, or My laundry waits an additional day in pursuit of his education.

None of these do I look at as negative things.  They are the very same things that come along when any person takes on people who are close to them in their lives.  If I sleep an hour less because I'm sharing time with him, I see it as worth it because it enhances the dynamic.  If I have to invest time, I'm the one who reaps the benefits of it.  I am fully aware that I am also worried about and cared for, and My submissive is supportive of Me and My life.  My laundry will eventually get done, and I'll probably get his assistance with it.

I think anyone in a relationship of any kind realizes there is give and take, even as a Domme.


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RE: What do you give up? - 1/13/2008 8:46:41 AM   
Rover


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I wonder why you dislike the term "investment"?


I don't dislike the term at all.  However, I'm not sure it is the best descriptive term for the way in which I see my relationships.  When I make financial investments, for example, I give my money to someone else to work with and hope that they do a good job managing it and provide me with a return on my investment that exceeds the return I could have received elsewhere (opportunity costs).  
 
But my relationships don't work like that.  They're hands on and I (along with my partner) work directly with what each of us brings to the relationship... namely ourselves.  We don't just watch someone else work with it, we work with it each and every day.  And it doesn't just require making "an" investment... it requires sharing yourself each and every day.  It's an active relationship, rather than a passive monitoring of someone else's work.  
 
I choose to see us as two whole people because I don't believe that incomplete individuals make for healthy partners for me.  And I choose to see us as sharing one another, because you can't really "give" yourself to anyone any more than submission is a gift. 
 
So "investment" is just not a term that best describes my relationships, though that should not deter anyone else from using that term to describe their own.

quote:


I think of my relationships with others as investments. I invest my time, resources, energy, and love into people... and I do so with the expectation that they return it back...


Kewl.  Use whatever terms work for you.

quote:


... (love is unconditional, relationships aren't).


I don't believe love is unconditional either.  I can think of plenty of things that people can do to one another that would preclude any love. 

quote:


For me D/s is a power exchange, we both  are giving something.


But the exchange isn't (necessarily) permanent.  It lasts only as long as both partners want it to last.  One more reason I prefer to think of it as "sharing" (or even loaning) rather than "giving" (or "gifting").

quote:


Sometimes relationships are hard, sometimes it feels like a sacrifice, sometimes we do not feel as though we get what we invest back.


Particularly if someone feels as though they have made an initial investment and don't wish to continue investing.  Many people have investment attitudes where they choose not to throw good money after bad, or choose not to continue to invest without an adequate return.
 
Another reason that I choose to consider it sharing.  Sometimes we have more to share, sometimes less.  But we share all that we have.  And we realize that what we get out of it is then a function of what we *do* with it, rather than just having made an investment.
 
It's just different ways of looking at it, and some may consider it semantics.  Neither of us is right or wrong.

quote:


I have never had a deep meaningful relationship that left me the way I went into it. In some way I felt either minimized by the relationship at the time, or I felt my life enriched by it in some way.. but change happened... but that is just me


Yeah, that's the nature of investments... they either go up or down.  Another reason I prefer to have two complete people sharing one another.  If the relationship ends, we still have two whole people going their separate ways.  Enriched by the experience, but never left with less than what we brought.
 
John

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RE: What do you give up? - 1/13/2008 8:56:29 AM   
TallDarkAndWitty


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I think I get what your are going with this.

The kind of ownership Elle and I practice is based on the Roman model where a slave is more a member of the family, loved, respected for the role they play, but utterly clear on their place.  This form of slavery demands as much from us as it does from them.  For example, we pay for Kat's apartment, phone and utilities.  She helps out when she can, but, for the most part, the money she makes is hers to keep. 

This kind of relationship also demands that we care for her physically and emotionally.  This can be quite a burden, and we have indeed given up many a night dealing with issues.  But Kat is ours, and we take care of our cherished possessions.

Taggard




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RE: What do you give up? - 1/13/2008 9:12:09 AM   
sambamanslilgirl


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Daddy invested His time, advice, wisdom, guidance, trust, friendship, compassion but more importantly His love and without this "investment" in our relationship, it wouldn't have lasted this long. ditto for SO.  we share together our eclectic taste in music, movies and other things.



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RE: What do you give up? - 1/13/2008 9:15:03 AM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

I don't believe love is unconditional either. I can think of plenty of things that people can do to one another that would preclude any love.


Having raised one person to adulthood, there is nothing he could ever do that would stop my loving him.. even if he turned into Ted Bundy... still wouldn't kill my love. That is the standard to which I give love, if I can't love in that way, I don't give it at all anymore. It is why I have such a hard time uttering those words to anyone... very few people I love that deeply. Now I am sure that even my Daddy wouldn't agree with me in this regard... I have no desire to push my feelings on an ephemeral concept on to anyone else...

quote:

But the exchange isn't (necessarily) permanent.  It lasts only as long as both partners want it to last.  One more reason I prefer to think of it as "sharing" (or even loaning) rather than "giving" (or "gifting").


Again, it really is just a personal way of looking at the universe at large. To me, in my opinion, nothing is forever, nothing lasts. If I viewed it this way I could never give anything to anyone, not even material belongings... because under this view unless it lasts forever and ever, I am not giving anything at all. Once energy is given, once emotions are given, once time is given, one cannot reclaim it as their own. Its gone in my opinion. I cannot take back submitting to my Daddy, he already got it. I am not even saying it is a "gift", but what I am saying is that once someone takes our time and energy, we can never ever get that back. It is more precious than money... people would give all they had just to purchase a little more time on planet Earth...time is the most valuable thing of all.

quote:

Particularly if someone feels as though they have made an initial investment and don't wish to continue investing.  Many people have investment attitudes where they choose not to throw good money after bad, or choose not to continue to invest without an adequate return.
 
Another reason that I choose to consider it sharing.  Sometimes we have more to share, sometimes less.  But we share all that we have.  And we realize that what we get out of it is then a function of what we *do* with it, rather than just having made an investment.
 
It's just different ways of looking at it, and some may consider it semantics.  Neither of us is right or wrong.





There is more than one definition for this term... here is the way I am using it
quote:

2. a. To spend or devote for future advantage or benefit: invested much time and energy in getting a good education.b. To devote morally or psychologically, as to a purpose; commit


To me investment means giving to something as an act of devotion or commitment...both meanings are valid. I only invest in things I am committed to, and people often demonstrate their commitment by the amount of time, energy, and resources they are willing to commit to anything.



quote:

Yeah, that's the nature of investments... they either go up or down.  Another reason I prefer to have two complete people sharing one another.  If the relationship ends, we still have two whole people going their separate ways.  Enriched by the experience, but never left with less than what we brought.
 


Life is a series of ups and downs and investments of time and energy that do not always pay off... the nature of the beast. If you noted I said at the time I felt minimized. But alas I do not feel this way today, I was enriched by every experience I have ever had... it is part of the tapestry of my life, and my life would not be nearly as rich as it is today if I never went through some "bad" experiences... which were not bad at all in the long run, they were just experiences. No one could ever leave me feeling minimized again, or leave me with less than I brought... but it might not turn out like I would want it to. Even that is okay with me these days. My point remains the same, if it was worth the time or the effort or the investment, it left me changed on some level (even the so-called "bad" investments")




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RE: What do you give up? - 1/13/2008 9:30:09 AM   
thetammyjo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty

I think I get what your are going with this.

The kind of ownership Elle and I practice is based on the Roman model where a slave is more a member of the family, loved, respected for the role they play, but utterly clear on their place. This form of slavery demands as much from us as it does from them. For example, we pay for Kat's apartment, phone and utilities. She helps out when she can, but, for the most part, the money she makes is hers to keep.

This kind of relationship also demands that we care for her physically and emotionally. This can be quite a burden, and we have indeed given up many a night dealing with issues. But Kat is ours, and we take care of our cherished possessions.

Taggard





Interesting because I've also structure my household on a more Roman model though with Fox operating as several different household/business/personal slaves within that model. He contributes to the household income and covers his own expenses because so he is only a plus for the household and no minuses. Anything outside of his contribution is his and he could use it to "buy his freedom" at any time (lol) though I get final say over any work he does for money I rarely exercise that authority because that takes too much time on my end of things.

I do have an "empire" to run here after all. (lol)

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And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

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RE: What do you give up? - 1/13/2008 9:30:15 AM   
LadyHibiscus


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These have been very interesting posts, and I think your various ideas go a long way toward explaining why I have no trouble kicking so many potential subs to the curb very early in the game!

I do not think a relationship with a submissive should involve "giving up", though obviously there is going to be work and sacrifice involved.   If there is not energy flowing in the other direction, there is not any point in the exercise, at least for me. 

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RE: What do you give up? - 1/13/2008 9:51:35 AM   
MasterHX


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While I don't feel that I've given anything up, there are things that I do less now, than I would if I were single.  Therefore, it seems that "time" is the most notable investment that I make.  I don't consider it a cost though, so much as a decision to be spending it doing something that I enjoy more.

We have exchanged finances before in times of need, but no more so or in any other way than a vanilla couple might.  We've both "given up" having sex with other people... does that count?    She does suffer from depression/mania, so she does tend to need quite a bit of calming and centering time.  I keep my cell with me at all times, just in case she's in need of such care.

M. HunterX

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RE: What do you give up? - 1/13/2008 9:51:55 AM   
LadyLolly


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In all things, balance is required to sustain it, otherwise, drain a resource and it is gone, crumbles, breaks.  So it is with a D/s or BDSM dynamic.  The wells on both sides must be replentished or they run dry. What is required depends on the dynamic and the individuals involved.  The tender of the exchange as well as the nature and extent of the exchange should be covered by negotiations - and communication.  

In a top/bottom exchange things are faily simple, limited and well defined, I want you want, I get, you get, it occurs, balance maintained, end of story.

For those that simply want a candy bar out of the kink machine plugging coin into the vending unit provides balance.  No direspect intended to the professionals providing a service - if I want my flat tire fixed so I can get on my way I'd expect to pay the garage to perform that service too. 

In a personal exchange, it takes investiture of time and energy to excercise the care, control and training of a submissive/slave. For those that claim to enjoy and desire to serve, practical efforts and tasks performed allow for conservation and redirection of that time and energy for the Dom/me and balance is again maintained. The weight of command and  responsibility for decisions is time and effort intensive.  A great deal of thought, research and stress accompanies a leadership role - there's a reason why executives are more highly compensated than the mailroom clerk. 

What do I give up?  I give up putting myself first, always looking to the needs of those in my care first.  I give up abdicating hard, and on occasion, agonizing decisions that need to be made to others.  I give up handing off the consequences for decisions I make to anyone else.  Ultimately, I assume the burdern for the welfare, well being, health and safety of those that entrusted themselves into my care, even to my own detriment. So, if on occassion I have knots in my shoulders from the stress, I'm not the least bit apologetic for asking for the 47th massage that day, my slippers and a pina colada - with a pink umbrella if you would.

Too, at the risk of being labled sexist and making generalizations, males have traditionally courted, sought the time and attention of females, by providing -  be it trinkets, gifts or what ever.   Not sorry, but we like it that way - who wouldn't?  However, when you discover that you HAVE to buy some ones time, when it's required/demanded, perhaps it's time to re-evaluate just what dynamics really are in place.     

One aspect that many find appealing in D/s is that the dynamics and power/control/responsibility flow is defined, desired and accepted.  The vanilla goal of strict 50/50 is dispensed with as impractical and leads to self defeating power struggles instead of being in tandem. The nature and preferences of a dominant and a submissive should compliment rather than compete with each other. There have always been those that are selfish and self centered to the detriment and exclusion of others. By the same token, those that conduct themselves like they are the sole factor in a dynamic ...soon will be.




(in reply to thetammyjo)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: What do you give up? - 1/13/2008 10:08:57 AM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty

The kind of ownership Elle and I practice is based on the Roman model where a slave is more a member of the family, loved, respected for the role they play, but utterly clear on their place.  This form of slavery demands as much from us as it does from them.  For example, we pay for Kat's apartment, phone and utilities.  She helps out when she can, but, for the most part, the money she makes is hers to keep. 

This kind of relationship also demands that we care for her physically and emotionally.  This can be quite a burden, and we have indeed given up many a night dealing with issues.  But Kat is ours, and we take care of our cherished possessions.

Much of what Taggard describes applies with me as well.  There is "cost" on both sides.  I require a lot of a slave in the form of service, time, and energy.  I give back as much as I require, sometimes more so.  I provide housing and the necessities of life, emotional support, guidance on various issues, etc.  It is very much a give and take arrangement.  As Taggard notes, sometimes it can be a burden, but that slave, that "property" becomes part of my family, my world... and I take care of my own.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
Profile   Post #: 20
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