RE: Quote I found for submissives

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subtee -> RE: Quote I found for submissives (1/15/2008 6:58:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Asherdelampyr We are so inculcated with guilt that we think that weakness is a sin or that it is some crime against nature to be submissive. - Dr. Anton Lavey discuss Hold me...

juliaoceania -> RE: Quote I found for submissives (1/15/2008 7:04:44 AM)
quote: Im not saying that anyone has to like, or accept either of these quotes on a personal level, all I ask is that you consider them... Why am I considering it? I am asking that sincerely. So there are people with guilt complexes, some of those people are submissives, it does not mean guilt is a submissive trait. If I and went over to the Masters Forum with such a quote about dominants, I would probably not be well received, what do I know about the emotional life of dominants as a submissive? Not much past what makes us all human. The person in this quote thinks being submissive is a "weakness", do you?

Asherdelampyr -> RE: Quote I found for submissives (1/15/2008 7:15:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: Im not saying that anyone has to like, or accept either of these quotes on a personal level, all I ask is that you consider them... Why am I considering it? I am asking that sincerely. So there are people with guilt complexes, some of those people are submissives, it does not mean guilt is a submissive trait. If I and went over to the Masters Forum with such a quote about dominants, I would probably not be well received, what do I know about the emotional life of dominants as a submissive? Not much past what makes us all human. The person in this quote thinks being submissive is a "weakness", do you? Where does he say what he believes at all? Where in there does it say that he believes submissivness to be a weakness? Yes there is a lot less guilt involved in being dominant vs submissive, because we are taught that noone should control us (except oour parents, employers, and church officials) As far as why I would ask you to consider it, I ask that you consider it because it is an idea... Any idea (in my mind at least) is worth considering. The only belief espoused herre is that he believes that people are taught, through dint of repitition, that being submissive is "unnatural" Obviously if you have read some/most of what I Have posted, you would see that I have never said it was a weakness. I understand your confusion, its that damn word or screwin with ya, isnt it. It makes you believe that obviously, he thinks that both things mentioned here are the same, and of course you have all that lovely counterproductive pride to toss around, which helps you cloud things worse, but hey, Im not here to change your path, I just find something interesting and like to talk about it. :P Edit to add: If you read some of his written works, you will see that he equates weakness as the total unwillingness to adapt, lack of intelligence. While he equates submissiveness as a way to feel good by helping others acheive happiness, no matter the cost... But hey, they're just words after all.

RCdc -> RE: Quote I found for submissives (1/15/2008 7:20:12 AM)
I do not deny that there are those that feel ashamed or guilty. But I do not believe that the quote is representative of submissive types in particular. I have always found that submission to others/someone in particular is easier to admit to than dominance over someone (rather than dominance in itself). Possibly more difficult in males, but not something I have come across and found prevelent. It all comes down to personal expereinces hey. Now for me, this speaks of submission much more - (as an aside, try to see past 'love' as purely emotional and defined as romantic but, moreover - all forms of admiration and acknowledgement) quote: A lover asked his beloved, "Do you love yourself more than you love me?" Beloved replied, "I have died to myself and I live for you. I've disappeared from myself and my attributes, I am present only for you. I've forgotten all my learnings, but from knowing you I've become a scholar. I've lost all my strength, but from your power I am able. I love myself...I love you. I love you...I love myself." Rumi Now that to me speaks of self realisation/persoanlrevolution and how I identify with submission. the.dark.

Asherdelampyr -> RE: Quote I found for submissives (1/15/2008 7:22:26 AM)
That is truly beautiful, thank you for sharing that with me.

bornsynner -> RE: Quote I found for submissives (1/15/2008 7:33:26 AM)
i think i get the quote quote: We are so inculcated with guilt that we think that weakness is a sin or that it is some crime against nature to be submissive. - Dr. Anton Lavey and at least in my opinion, its somewhat true.. my mom was the proverbial ice queen who believed women should be independent and never told what to do.. she raised me to never show 'weakness'.. to her submission was the same thing.. to me they are entirely different things .. im happy in submitting to the right person and cannot see happiness as weakness or a sin..

Asherdelampyr -> RE: Quote I found for submissives (1/15/2008 7:36:25 AM)
Exactement... Submission is not weakness, fighting your own instincts is though...

Leatherist -> RE: Quote I found for submissives (1/15/2008 7:38:01 AM)
Sighs, much of what LaVey founded was simply a reaction to the times and circumstances in which he found himself. He was simply rebelling against the Christian Judeo establishment of his day. He did recognize the primal roots of humaity well enough to feel repulsed by that same culture's constraints of us all as animals-with an animal nature. His entire philosphy was based upon exploring and expressing the godhood of the individual. He just chose a really crappy name for it-in the interests of sensationalizing it all.

Leatherist -> RE: Quote I found for submissives (1/15/2008 7:39:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Asherdelampyr Exactement... Submission is not weakness, fighting your own instincts is though... Submitting to weaklings is weak. Prudence in choice is strength.

Asherdelampyr -> RE: Quote I found for submissives (1/15/2008 7:43:25 AM)
Well said

Mercnbeth -> RE: Quote I found for submissives (1/15/2008 8:47:47 AM)
quote: What that quote means to me is that Society is teaching people that there is something "unnatural" about being submissive... Which would suggest that we need as a "Group" to be wary of those individuals, and supportive of ones that feel guilty due to thier submissive urges... Im not suggesting at all that there are not people who fought through those and get to be themselves without guilt. Just that it seems like "normal" society wants to make them feel bad. society aims to teach us that there is such a thing as "healthy" and "unhealthy" submission. it makes a clear distinction as to what one can freely submit to and still be considered competent. even if we were raised by wolves we would have been taught submission, as wee ones, to the one(s) in control of the pack. learning to submit is a process that each one of us goes through as we learn to control our bowels and emotions and speech in order to please those who hold our wee fragile lives in the palms of their hands. "normal" often functions as a hypothetical psychological construct aimed at folks insecurities and used, very profitably, to sell goods, services and miraculous cures from various gods and goddesses.

juliaoceania -> RE: Quote I found for submissives (1/15/2008 11:29:26 AM)
I have read far more dominants feeling guilty about hitting someone they love than I have heard submissives being guilty for being dominated... just a thought

sweetwenchie -> RE: Quote I found for submissives (1/15/2008 11:35:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Asherdelampyr We are so inculcated with guilt that we think that weakness is a sin or that it is some crime against nature to be submissive. - Dr. Anton Lavey discuss How can it be against nature? There are many animal species that use Dominance and submissiveness to enable them to live in a pack or community effectively. Personally, while it is an interesting quote, it did not make a great deal of sense to me. Not to say that i am not enjoying reading all the replies, but that could be the nerd in me. [8\|]

Asherdelampyr -> RE: Quote I found for submissives (1/15/2008 11:42:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sweetwenchie quote: ORIGINAL: Asherdelampyr We are so inculcated with guilt that we think that weakness is a sin or that it is some crime against nature to be submissive. - Dr. Anton Lavey discuss How can it be against nature? There are many animal species that use Dominance and submissiveness to enable them to live in a pack or community effectively. Personally, while it is an interesting quote, it did not make a great deal of sense to me. Not to say that i am not enjoying reading all the replies, but that could be the nerd in me. [8\|] Actually, that was the point of it... Inculcated means basically taught by dint of repitition... No that it is the correct thing, just that it has been forced into someones head :P

sweetwenchie -> RE: Quote I found for submissives (1/15/2008 11:49:09 AM)
soooooooo, Dominance and submission are not against nature, just an aspect of it ~sigh~ Is that not what i just stated? Or am i missing the point yet again? [8\|] It has been known to happen... often... lol

CalifChick -> RE: Quote I found for submissives (1/15/2008 11:54:41 AM)
I think the link in the quote of weakness and submission makes about as much sense as saying: We are so inculcated with guilt that we think that weakness is a sin or that it is some crime against nature to be hirsute. Makes you go huh??? That's how closely I consider weakness and submission. And the only weakness I would consider to be a sin would be voluntary weakness of character. Cali

Asherdelampyr -> RE: Quote I found for submissives (1/15/2008 12:17:58 PM)
Let me try to explain again for you sweet... Its not saying that anything is unnatural or wrong. Its stating that that is what people are made to believe. Cali: Please see my other post regarding the wonders of the word "or" in the human language... :P Edited for spelling errors

Asherdelampyr -> RE: Quote I found for submissives (1/15/2008 12:20:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Leatherist Sighs, much of what LaVey founded was simply a reaction to the times and circumstances in which he found himself. He was simply rebelling against the Christian Judeo establishment of his day. He did recognize the primal roots of humaity well enough to feel repulsed by that same culture's constraints of us all as animals-with an animal nature. His entire philosphy was based upon exploring and expressing the godhood of the individual. He just chose a really crappy name for it-in the interests of sensationalizing it all. I didn't see this post before... Allow me to invite you to message me to talk about this as well as other theologies if you would like (as it doesnt really fit wihin the subject here :P)

sweetwenchie -> RE: Quote I found for submissives (1/15/2008 12:38:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Asherdelampyr Let me try to explain again for you sweet... Its not saying that anything is unnatural or wrong. Its stating that that is what people are made to believe. Cali: Please see my other post regarding the wonders of the word "or" in the human language... :P Edited for spelling errors i am not dense... it simply made no sense to me personally. You did ask for our opinions on this, did you not? [;)] Perhaps he was made to believe that, perhaps some of the unwashed masses have been made to believe that. For me, i was not brainwashed into thinking any such thing. i had a very strong mother who prized individuality and passed that along to me. She has stated many times that i have a submissive personality, and never made me think it was some type of character flaw, it was just part of my own mental mind set.

Asherdelampyr -> RE: Quote I found for submissives (1/15/2008 12:39:50 PM)
Never said you were dense, never meant to imply it either, just figured I wasnt explainin things too well

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