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RE: Quote I found for submissives - 1/15/2008 2:46:05 PM   
sweetwenchie


Posts: 1993
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Sacramento, California
Status: offline 		eh, i was not being serious about you finding me dense, hence the wink i added in to try and bring some levity to my words.  Merely trying to (in an offhanded way, granted) indicate that no matter how often it was explained, i would not agree with the quote or find it to have any bearing on how i view things.    

i think i need to take off my serious face and go lurk on the goofy boards 

< Message edited by sweetwenchie -- 1/15/2008 2:47:34 PM >

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RE: Quote I found for submissives - 1/15/2008 3:01:13 PM   
CalifChick


Posts: 10717
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Asherdelampyr

Cali: Please see my other post regarding the wonders of the word "or" in the human language... :P


I get the "or."  I can identify a conjunction at twenty paces.  At best, it is a poorly constructed sentence. At worst, it's a bunch of hooey.  I've seen far more creative uses, and actual uses, of guilt.

Cali


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RE: Quote I found for submissives - 1/15/2008 3:11:19 PM   
Asherdelampyr


Posts: 9556
Joined: 11/14/2006
From: The Desert
Status: offline 		But, it is hooey that has kept me at least partially entertained for almost 12 hours :P 

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RE: Quote I found for submissives - 1/15/2008 3:18:35 PM   
CalifChick


Posts: 10717
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: California
Status: offline 		Oh, but for the want of a few vowels.... Hooey for entertainment... or hoohaa for entertainment.  Wouldn't you rather be entertained by "hoohaa" than by "hooey"??

Cali

< Message edited by CalifChick -- 1/15/2008 3:19:03 PM >

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RE: Quote I found for submissives - 1/15/2008 4:55:25 PM   
Asherdelampyr


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Status: offline 		Meh... I take what I can get

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RE: Quote I found for submissives - 1/15/2008 9:00:58 PM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		While I never met Anton LeVay, my ex knew him and she was a very grounded person and a vegan so her opinion holds water for me.  He was of the "I would rather burn in hell forever than bend my knee in heaven" bent rather than, "gee, pass me another infants heart please" sort. 

Besides, it was always more about hype than anything else

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RE: Quote I found for submissives - 1/15/2008 9:01:40 PM   
fluffyswitch


Posts: 1108
Joined: 9/29/2007
From: Buffalo
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Asherdelampyr

Men in the society I grew up had to all act like tough badasses. Women had to be untouchable ice queens, thats why that first quote made sense to me... Nothing makes sense or works for everyone, but I do feel that it gives us something to think about, to realize that there are truly people out there who are ashamed or feel guilty for no reason other than they were told/taught that they should... Im not saying that anyone has to like, or accept either of these quotes on a personal level, all I ask is that you consider them...

it actually made sense to me, but then i make a habit/hobby out of studying why people think the way that they do. i think that part of the problem is that people have this image of themselves (not that that is a bad  b thing) and tend not to question where they get that image from, when a lot of it comes from the outside. so yes, there very may be people who are completely fine with it and always have been and have issue with the quote, but i do admit that for a long time i  was really hesitant to address it because i was taught, both by my parents and the feminist community that i have been involved with for several years, that you do NOT submit to someone without have a D*MN good reason without understanding that that's a pivotal aspect of submission to begin with. for that reason i actually think the quote makes a lot of sense.

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RE: Quote I found for submissives - 1/16/2008 8:29:06 AM   
Asherdelampyr


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Joined: 11/14/2006
From: The Desert
Status: offline 		Simply: While I never had the chance to meet him, I always thought that his *teachings* were about hope, because it was about what you could change. And yes, a lot of it was about hype, because that was the way he chose to gain notice. There were already lots of other people teaching the same things, but because of the way he did it, people know his name.

Fluffy: It's nice to see more people with the willingness to look at this from an emotionless perspective.


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RE: Quote I found for submissives - 1/16/2008 9:30:47 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I did not look at it from an emotional standpoint, more of a logical one...and the impression I had from the quote, being unfamiliar with this writer, that he was saying that we as a society do not encourage "submissiveness", and see it as a weakness. There is also guilt from the other direction, a negative reaction to those who are "controlling", those who seek to dominate their partners, and that is also seen as a "weakness" and "unhealthy". I pointed out there is dominant guilt too, which I have read more than one post from dominants that feel guilt dominating someone they love.

I find your comment to fluffy to be kind of insulting to the rest of us, frankly, especially since most of us have no frame of reference to the quote. I also suppose those of us that feel we are submissives would have a better idea of our level of guilt associated with it, and we would be more in touch with whether we view it as a weakness. I also will note that you never responded to my point about dominant guilt, feelings of weakness in dominating those they love, nor the negative view society has of those who desire to control others.


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RE: Quote I found for submissives - 1/16/2008 9:45:20 AM   
Asherdelampyr


Posts: 9556
Joined: 11/14/2006
From: The Desert
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I did not look at it from an emotional standpoint, more of a logical one...and the impression I had from the quote, being unfamiliar with this writer, that he was saying that we as a society do not encourage "submissiveness", and see it as a weakness. There is also guilt from the other direction, a negative reaction to those who are "controlling", those who seek to dominate their partners, and that is also seen as a "weakness" and "unhealthy". I pointed out there is dominant guilt too, which I have read more than one post from dominants that feel guilt dominating someone they love.

I find your comment to fluffy to be kind of insulting to the rest of us, frankly, especially since most of us have no frame of reference to the quote. I also suppose those of us that feel we are submissives would have a better idea of our level of guilt associated with it, and we would be more in touch with whether we view it as a weakness. I also will note that you never responded to my point about dominant guilt, feelings of weakness in dominating those they love, nor the negative view society has of those who desire to control others.

You seem to have a number of different points, I will address them all in turn:
"I did not look at it from an emotional standpoint, more of a logical one..."
Then obviously I wasnt talking about you? I said that it was nice to see more, not that Fluffy was the only one, so relax a bit.

"I find your comment to fluffy to be kind of insulting to the rest of us, frankly,"
See point one, just because I compliment one does not mean I despise others. If you are insulted, then think really long and hard about why, if it is because you feel "singled out" then you really need to chill.

"I also will note that you never responded to my point about dominant guilt, feelings of weakness in dominating those they love, nor the negative view society has of those who desire to control others."
Simple reason for that, it had nothing to do with anything I was saying... If you want to discuss "dom guilt" then we can do so on the "ask a master" area, that way, people that come to this thread only get what they expect to see. Things related to subs.

"I also suppose those of us that feel we are submissives would have a better idea of our level of guilt associated with it, and we would be more in touch with whether we view it as a weakness."
You arer right, you probably would, however I must restate that I am not saying that submissiveness is a weakness, and if you continue to think so then I may have to stop responding to you at all until you take a few more english classes. The quote was directed at society as a whole, not what *You* personally feel. Everything said about any submissive is not neccisarily directed at you, any more than any other group you might identify with, you really dont need to keep insisting that you dont feel guilt, or that you arent unnatural, noone is saying that *you* are.




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RE: Quote I found for submissives - 1/16/2008 9:58:30 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		:
quote:

It's nice to see more people with the willingness to look at this from an emotionless perspective.


Who were the ones that weren't? And no, I do not think it was aimed at me, but in general at the majority that posted here... were there those who were "emotional" about it? It seemed to me a comparative statement... and if that wasn't the intent, then my bad.

quote:

We are so inculcated with guilt that we think that weakness is a sin or that it is some crime against nature to be submissive. - Dr. Anton Lavey


How is it a crime against nature to be submissive? If guilt has nothing to do with it, why is it included in the same sentence? Weakness is not the same as submissiveness in the sentence, true, but who inculcated us with this guilt about being weak or submissive?

Sorry, just do not see it, I will reiterate, society probably seeks to inculcate us with submissiveness, and it is not a "crime against nature" as it were. I brought up the dominant guilt to show that we are inculcated with all sorts of things by society at large and our families... one could put "dominant" in that sentence and it would fit just as well... we are raised to stay within the "norm"... not deviate too strongly from it. At times this means being submissive to others and at times it means being what some would think of as dominant. As far as it being a "crime against nature"... just looking at the quote the way it sits, hmmmm, not in my reality.


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RE: Quote I found for submissives - 1/16/2008 10:05:55 AM   
Asherdelampyr


Posts: 9556
Joined: 11/14/2006
From: The Desert
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

:
quote:

It's nice to see more people with the willingness to look at this from an emotionless perspective.


quote:

We are so inculcated with guilt that we think that weakness is a sin or that it is some crime against nature to be submissive. - Dr. Anton Lavey


How is it a crime against nature to be submissive?

This would be where the word Think fits in to the equation. he not saying i is or isnt just that that is the way people were brought up to think. Mind you this was said in the 70s-80s, luckily many people have moved past that today. As far as who did it, it would be parents, teachers etc. The people who teach everything else.

Quite a few people chose to message me directly to tell me that they agreed, or found it to be an interesting quote, etc... Those people seem to be of the same age Dr. Lavey wuld be if he was still alive, so maybe they had the same type of experiences? Just a thought, and not an attack.

Also, thank you for responding and helping to provide discourse, even if you only read every other line :P

Edit for spelling


< Message edited by Asherdelampyr -- 1/16/2008 10:07:54 AM >

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RE: Quote I found for submissives - 1/16/2008 10:15:53 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

Also, thank you for responding and helping to provide discourse, even if you only read every other line :P


Now that IS an insult...

Good luck with getting more people to respond in a way that promotes discourse if all you can do is trash people who do because they are unfamiliar with the context of this quote and attempt to understand by questioning it....




_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

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RE: Quote I found for submissives - 1/16/2008 10:49:29 AM   
Asherdelampyr


Posts: 9556
Joined: 11/14/2006
From: The Desert
Status: offline 		Id consider it more in the line of giving you shit, but either way :P

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RE: Quote I found for submissives - 1/16/2008 11:06:27 AM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		Intellectual masturbation is still just jerking off...

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RE: Quote I found for submissives - 1/16/2008 11:06:46 AM   
LittleLadyBecca


Posts: 16
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline 		another quick quote from Mr LaVey for you to amuse yourselves with -

" A woman should let herself dribble enough to leave a small wet spot on the back of her skirt in order to attract a man"
 
Now i know i'm no man, but surely Mr LaVey must be alone in this attraction; i'd just think they had wee'd

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RE: Quote I found for submissives - 1/16/2008 11:10:58 AM   
Justme696


Posts: 3236
Joined: 1/7/2008
From: Royal kingdom of the Netherlands
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LittleLadyBecca

another quick quote from Mr LaVey for you to amuse yourselves with -

" A woman should let herself dribble enough to leave a small wet spot on the back of her skirt in order to attract a man"
 
Now i know i'm no man, but surely Mr LaVey must be alone in this attraction; i'd just think they had wee'd

LaVey says often things to make the world look stupid...especially when people listen to his non serious remarks.
He is adorable as teacher lol


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RE: Quote I found for submissives - 1/16/2008 11:14:27 AM   
LittleLadyBecca


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Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696


LaVey says often things to make the world look stupid...especially when people listen to his non serious remarks.
He is adorable as teacher lol



Having had the pleasure of his company once i find him intreguing, although his view on wicca and its related sects seemed a little scewed.  i in no way mean to suggest i think negatively of him, i think he is a delightful man, however the comment was intended as humourous.

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RE: Quote I found for submissives - 1/16/2008 11:16:16 AM   
Asherdelampyr


Posts: 9556
Joined: 11/14/2006
From: The Desert
Status: offline 		I always figured that that one was just his personal fetish...
I liked what he had to say on "immortality"


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RE: Quote I found for submissives - 1/16/2008 12:50:34 PM   
Justme696


Posts: 3236
Joined: 1/7/2008
From: Royal kingdom of the Netherlands
Status: offline 		That is what i meant actually, he likes to tease the world...and show them a mirror.
Besides that...he has great serious remarks too

(and acts lol) 


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