The Middle East Solution? (Full Version)

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Mercnbeth -> The Middle East Solution? (1/15/2008 11:47:50 AM)

There were some recent talks that occurred which once again alluded to a peaceful solution regarding the 'Palestinians' and the Israel. There is no better catalyst than peace talks to initiate violence.
 
quote:

Israeli tanks, bulldozers and helicopters have raided the Gaza Strip, killing the militant son of a hardline Hamas leader and 14 other Palestinians. It has been one of the bloodiest days of fighting since Hamas took over the coastal territory in June 2007. Palestinian sniper fire across the border also killed a volunteer from Ecuador at an Israeli communal farm.The killing of Hussam Zahar, 24, the son of hardline Hamas leader Mahmoud Zahar, and the civilian death in Israel threatened to fuel the violence even further at a time when Israel and the Palestinians are trying to move peacemaking into high gear.
Mahmoud Zahar said: "Will respond in the appropriate way. We will defend ourselves by all means."
Source: http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30200-1300707,00.html 


Peace between these people doesn't seem possible. Worse, for the US, is that we are spending a greater portion of our GNP supporting one, if not both sides. Although it helps corporations selling the sides weapons, ultimately we can't continue this path. For a solution - lets look at history and how two other philosophical enemies managed to co-exist.

From 1945 - 1991 the USA and the USSR shared a common hatred for each other. Yet - they never fired a direct shot at the other. Why? That shot wouldn't come from a sniper, and retaliation wouldn't come from a bulldozer. Nuclear arms and mutually assured destruction was the umbrella of peace covering the world. Why not apply the same principle to the Middle East?

Israel already has nuclear weapons. This source: http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/israel/nuke/ puts the number at between 60-80. We've got a shit-pile of these things just collecting dust somewhere. Why not distribute 60-80 among the various Palestinian, Islamic sects and put the same MAD policy in place?

Think of the benefits. We'd be a FoA (Friend of Allah) to the Muslim world. We'd accept the principle they vocally represent that they are a peaceful, peace seeking people who only want to co-exist in the family of nations. The Iranian President would no longer have to saber rattle and goad our President, current or future, by threatening to be a member of the nuclear family. Being one - he'd be able to sit at the table and discuss issues without feeling impotent compared to Israel and the US.

The US military could leave the area immediately. Our European friends, especially those already complacent to Iran's nuclear goals and sympathetic to their cause should welcome a nuclear armed Islamic nation. I don't know why France hasn't already thought of this. Take a look at Pakistan v. India as a current example of MAD works. Everything else has been tried. What's the worse that could happen? Other than accelerating the inevitable - I don't see a downside.

What do you think?

PS - I know we are going through the lamest 'lame duck' Presidency since LBJ; but to find a reference to the latest Palestinian/Israeli battle wasn't easy. Drudge had no mention. This morning's 'air America' had none. Even the 'conservative talk' stations seem to be paying it no mind. What's up with that?



popeye1250 -> RE: The Middle East Solution? (1/15/2008 11:51:07 AM)

I have a solution.
Just mind our own business.



greyarcher315 -> RE: The Middle East Solution? (1/15/2008 12:08:12 PM)

  i don't believe MAD would work over there. There are too many who would be happy to blow up themselves just to take out an enemy.
There are so many problems that its not even funny. Neither side trusts the other, and that is a multi generational thing now. The hatreds are very deep and going to be very hard to overcome.
  One thing that has not been adressed at any of the so called "peace talks" is the stated goal of Arab groups and governments to destroy Israel. Until that can be dealt with, no peace will ever be possible. And before anyone jumps on me for that statement, i know Israel has its own issues and is not perfect,  i just wanted to point out ONE of the major problems over there. There are many more.



meatcleaver -> RE: The Middle East Solution? (1/15/2008 12:11:07 PM)

The reason the Israeli/Palestinian conflict hasn't been solved is because of the USA. It has armed and bankrolled one side, even when that side has flouted international law and commited human rights abuses so that Israel thinks it can do what it wants under the US umbrella and demonised the other side, mainly for its own perceived national interests, which any one can see is a flawed perception. To demonize one side as terrorists and the call the other side a legitimate national state is to take Orwellian language to extremes. I nearly collapsed on the floor in disbelief when I heard Bush say that Israel needs to withdraw from the west bank because that is exactly what is needed for a solution to this conflict. I never thought I would hear Bush say that, its a pity he didn't say it seven years ago because it would have had more power then but maybe he has realised his ME policy is seriously flawed and has come round to see the reality of the situation.

The EU is the biggest aid giver to the Palestinians and then fucking says nothing while Israel destroys everything it has paid for in the occupied territories while giving preferential trade rights to Israel. The US throws money at the conflict too for its own reasons. The nonsense is that with all this money and effort the west should have enough leverage to force a deal but it pretends it can't, mainly I suggest because politicians in the west don't want to be accused by Israel of being anti-semetic, well its about time the anti-semetic accusation got faced down and Israel told they have the right to exist, within the pre 1967 borders. It was Israel that started the '67 war after all.



KnOcala -> RE: The Middle East Solution? (1/15/2008 12:26:26 PM)

I wish I had a solution or anyone di have a good plan to make things better worldwide. 
However there is no solution and we have to stop breaking our backs while some are making a fortune on our sweat and blood.
Its time to remove ourselves from the Middle East.
Its time to put are efforts into our own economy and people.
Its time to stop giving special treatment to non Americans so we can get better business loans and can earn a decent living and own our own business.
Its time to stop giving handouts to illegals.
Its time  for companies that earn 100 billion in profits to step up and be accountable for the raping of the workers and public.
Its time to stop pressing 2 for Spanish and just speak english.
Its time to save the environment and make a better, safer world for the future.
Its time for the silent majority to be heard.
Its time for a change.




Stephann -> RE: The Middle East Solution? (1/15/2008 12:40:26 PM)

Unfortunately, MAD in the Middle East could have an untold impact on the environment.  Turning the Middle East to glass (not even considering that we'd be blowing up the well where we get our gasoline) would render bystander countries uninhabitable as well, impacting Africa, Eastern Europe, China, and Russia.

Gosh, I'm surprised Bush hasn't done it already....



Mercnbeth -> RE: The Middle East Solution? (1/15/2008 12:59:56 PM)

quote:

Unfortunately, MAD in the Middle East could have an untold impact on the environment.  Turning the Middle East to glass (not even considering that we'd be blowing up the well where we get our gasoline) would render bystander countries uninhabitable as well, impacting Africa, Eastern Europe, China, and Russia.
Gosh, I'm surprised Bush hasn't done it already....


Stephann,
Now that you've covered this ground how about discussing the potential downside? But again, why apply Islamic prejudice? Are you saying that these people are any different than the leaders and citizens of the USA/USSR or India/Pakistan? Won't they be able to take on the responsibility that comes along with the ability? That's not only prejudicial but down right bigoted!

Concerning the "bystander" countries such as our good friends in Saudi Arabia, this would enable them to take a more active role in their region with people 'fundamentally' similar. Who better to help smooth out the rough spots, and what better incentive for them to do so. Granted, it may cut back on their purchases of customized Airbus
quote:

Prince Al-Walid bin Talal of Saudi Arabia has ordered a $300 million Airbus A380 to be custom-fitted as a flying palace. Source:http://royals-gone-wild.blogspot.com/2007/11/prince-buys-palatial-jumbo-jet.html 
but some sacrifices will have to be expected.



kdsub -> RE: The Middle East Solution? (1/15/2008 1:48:23 PM)

One of those nukes would most likely find it’s way into the basement of the Sears tower.

Peace is possible… it would just take will. Believe me the man on the street wants peace.

If one …makes no different which… would just declare publicly they would not retaliate against the other and mean it, then world opinion would force the other to stop military action… That is all it would take to stop the killing.

Without the tit for tat and in an atmosphere of peace… the problems could be quickly settled.

Butch



seeksfemslave -> RE: The Middle East Solution? (1/15/2008 3:38:20 PM)

Peace in the Middle East will not be possible until the US takes a more balanced view to the problem.
Many things that Israel do are just plain wrong but unfortunately the behaviour of Arab extremists allows them to "get away with it"
Arabs were disposessed. Israelis did resort to terrorism . These are facts.
The solution.....buggered if I know.



kdsub -> RE: The Middle East Solution? (1/15/2008 4:17:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Peace in the Middle East will not be possible until the US takes a more balanced view to the problem.
Many things that Israel do are just plain wrong but unfortunately the behaviour of Arab extremists allows them to "get away with it"
Arabs were disposessed. Israelis did resort to terrorism . These are facts.
The solution.....buggered if I know.



I believe our view means nothing... The US involvement is just an excuse to drum up hate among the easily manipulated. We could withdraw help from both tomorrow and it would mean nothing.

Only the Israelis and Palestinians can settle their problems… there has to be enough pain and political will  on their part to force the first step… they are almost there.

Butch



rubberpet -> RE: The Middle East Solution? (1/15/2008 4:24:42 PM)

Merc, that is one hell of a solution, but I see a small flaw in that plan.  While the theory sounds right on the money with the US/USSR and India/Pakistan reference, most of these fuckers in the Middle East don't care if they live or die.  Look at the suicide bombings going on daily over there.  These xxxxxxx  are dumb enough to launch a nuke in the name of ali baba or whatever his name is just because someone stole a camel or something.  The last thing these idiots need in their hands are stronger and more powerful bombs to kill more people in one shot.  Hell, Israel may be our ally, but I still think they have an itchy trigger finger.

As for peace in the Middle East, it will never happen.  They seem to believe that driving their taxis into a crowded marketplace, setting off a car bomb, and killing innocent people is the way to solve their problems.

Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

[Mod Note: please keep the racial slurs out of our forums]



Stephann -> RE: The Middle East Solution? (1/15/2008 4:28:57 PM)

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Stephann,
Now that you've covered this ground how about discussing the potential downside?

Honestly, a couple points here:  first, about 70% of the people in the countries that would be reduced to glass have no say in their leaders.  Women and children have zero say under Islamic law about their future.  They are, for all purposes, property.

Second, again, if a country wants to destroy itself, fine.  But what sort of nuclear fallout do you think that would result in?  Depending on weather, it could be children in Greece being born with two heads.

But again, why apply Islamic prejudice? Are you saying that these people are any different than the leaders and citizens of the USA/USSR or India/Pakistan?

No, not different!  I think with someone, such as George Bush, the possibility for a retaliatory nuclear strike against a country such as Iran, for no other reason other than he felt it was 'a reasonable response' to a terrorist attack. 

Won't they be able to take on the responsibility that comes along with the ability? That's not only prejudicial but down right bigoted!

I'm willing to embrace the title of prejudiced, if it means the vast majority of people of a country aren't slaughtered because their elite leadership simply don't value their lives highly enough. 

Concerning the "bystander" countries such as our good friends in Saudi Arabia, this would enable them to take a more active role in their region with people 'fundamentally' similar. Who better to help smooth out the rough spots, and what better incentive for them to do so. Granted, it may cut back on their purchases of customized Airbus
quote:

Prince Al-Walid bin Talal of Saudi Arabia has ordered a $300 million Airbus A380 to be custom-fitted as a flying palace. Source:http://royals-gone-wild.blogspot.com/2007/11/prince-buys-palatial-jumbo-jet.html 
but some sacrifices will have to be expected.

Now you're right, this certainly cuts both ways.  S. A. has been playing both sides of the fence for quite a while now.  I heard yesterday that they weren't planning to increase oil production, because "the market doesn't warrant it."  Duh.  With oil over $100, they're seeing record profits.  They're not going to increase their oil production, unless the US enters into full blown economic depression. 

The most foolish thing here, is the US relying on allies.  Why is it so god damned important for us to be loved and protected from the 'evil' in the world?

Ron Paul's kooky, but he's the only guy saying "lets pack ALL of our troops up, and bring them home to... (drumroll) actually defend our country."  That's right, rest of the world; wanna blow each other up?  Fine, we're not going to sell you any more microchips or bombs to do it with.

Ahhh no wonder that doesn't go over well in the Republican party....

Stephan



Mercnbeth -> RE: The Middle East Solution? (1/15/2008 4:55:49 PM)

I don't get it. How can there be so much prejudice and disbelief that Islamic people would have a different value of life than anyone else? Have you all bought into 'profiling'? Don't you think that the various Sunni/Shi'ite sects can't unite and be self determining of their fate under the equally protective and destructive nuclear deterrent? All the effort currently being used for destruction could be redirected to make the desert bloom!

I think the Pakistani/India example proof that Islam/Hindu, each with nukes, can co-exist. Is Palestine/Israel different? Why?

Popeye had the best solution - leave them alone. Let's leave today! However then we'll still get the brunt of disdain and attack because of the military and financial aid the US provides to Israel. There's no good reason for that, anymore than there is a good reason to stay militarily in the area. But I feel the need to establish an equal playing field.

Of course, for that to work, it requires an equal value placed on life by both sides. There seems to be a few stating here that one side doesn't have that capacity. 
quote:

 Just my opinion, I could be wrong.



TheHeretic -> RE: The Middle East Solution? (1/15/2008 6:56:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

It was Israel that started the '67 war after all.




          And it was the Palestinians that walked away from a peace table with everything they wanted on it.  Except for every Israeli to die, of course.

        Merc, I have the highest respect for your contributions, but I have to disagree that balancing the nuclear scale is a good idea. 

       First is the motivation for the conflict.  Sure, we had our "We will bury you/Evil empire" rhetoric to keep the herd moving in the right direction and on task, but the Cold War was about global power, and one side kicked the other's ass (That would be the United States under Reagan, for any socialists/communists/radical leftists/whatever who might be reading along).  The Mideast is about a blood-feud, in a place that is very, very hot, where millions of people have nothing to do all day.  We got our global power (fat lot of good it did us), they will get their blood.

      Second is the simple matter of scale.  If every country that refused Israel diplomatic recognition got one 20 megaton bomb, they could turn Israel into the world's biggest forbidden zone.  Mutual destruction?  It would take we and the Soviets in 1986 to match that level of anniliation on the Arabs.

      Besides, aren't they already operating under MAD there now? 



Aileen1968 -> RE: The Middle East Solution? (1/15/2008 7:26:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

I don't get it. How can there be so much prejudice and disbelief that Islamic people would have a different value of life than anyone else? Have you all bought into 'profiling'? Don't you think that the various Sunni/Shi'ite sects can't unite and be self determining of their fate under the equally protective and destructive nuclear deterrent? All the effort currently being used for destruction could be redirected to make the desert bloom!


I kind of agree...if all of them were so gung ho about dying for Allah then why aren't there suicide bombings happening all over this country every single day?  You have to know that they're here in this country.  I think it would take a tremendous amount of balls to do what those suicide bombers do.  I can't imagine that volunteers are pouring out of the woodwork for that job, no matter how religious they say they are. 



Marc2b -> RE: The Middle East Solution? (1/15/2008 9:49:47 PM)

Merc, are you serious? I’d think this was an April Fools day joke if it wasn’t the middle of January. You’re pulling my leg, right? You can’t seriously believe that giving nuclear weapons to fanatics who love to blow themselves up is a good idea, can you? Even if they did have an attack of good sense and decided that self annihilation is a dumb idea what’s to stop them from making some bucks selling the nuke to somebody else?

There is a solution to the mid-east problem but I doubt anyone will like it. The solution is for one side to be victorious. Either the Palestinians and the Arab states wipe out Israel or Israel grinds the Palestinians into the ground, making them despair of any hope of victory and thus accepting of any terms Israel dictates to them.

Neither solution is pretty but until the Palestinians decide that they love their children more than they hate Israel, I just don’t see peace happening over there.



NorthernGent -> RE: The Middle East Solution? (1/15/2008 10:45:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

Neither solution is pretty but until the Palestinians decide that they love their children more than they hate Israel, I just don’t see peace happening over there.



You'll find the root of the problem is the dispossessing of Palestinian land and homes by the Israeli government - funded and armed by the Americans.



Marc2b -> RE: The Middle East Solution? (1/15/2008 11:03:39 PM)

quote:

You'll find the root of the problem is the dispossessing of Palestinian land and homes by the Israeli government - funded and armed by the Americans.


No. That, arguably, is the cause of the Palestinians hatred.. The root of the problem (i.e. lack of peace) is that the Palestinians hatred of Israel has become so mindless that they are teaching their children to blow themselves up. With such intractable hatred, a peaceful solution is impossible. As the man said, you can’t reason with unreasonable people.



meatcleaver -> RE: The Middle East Solution? (1/15/2008 11:16:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

It was Israel that started the '67 war after all.




         And it was the Palestinians that walked away from a peace table with everything they wanted on it.  Except for every Israeli to die, of course.

   


If you are talking about the Barak peace offer then you don't know what you are talking about. The Barak offer was basically offering the Palestinians a life on Israeli patroled reservations. But then that is what the Americans offered the plains indians so you will probably think that is a good deal.



UtopianRanger -> RE: The Middle East Solution? (1/15/2008 11:22:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

I have a solution.
Just mind our own business.


Honestly.....After so much time, I'm in favor of letting them completely eliminate each other---The world and all of its peoples would be much better off without them.

I'm tired of seeing my tax dollars support a quagmire over a shity little swath of land.



- R



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