Fear of your Master

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takenbyjohnr07 -> Fear of your Master (1/15/2008 10:09:50 PM)
i read a Master's profile on here once and one of the things he said was that "You will fear me" so my question is: Should a sub/slave live in fear of their Dominant/Domme? Thanks

Marc2b -> RE: Fear of your Master (1/15/2008 10:18:13 PM)
It is my belief that in a good Master/slave relationship the slave should have a healthy fear of the Master’s displeasure (i.e. fear of punishment) but should never have to be afraid of the Master (i.e. fear for her safety or health). Just my two cents.

takenbyjohnr07 -> RE: Fear of your Master (1/15/2008 10:20:04 PM)
That's exactly how i see it. Thanks!

Statepalace -> RE: Fear of your Master (1/15/2008 10:23:26 PM)
In my opinion, no. From a practical standpoint, fear will only take you so far as a motivator. A person (or a pet) will obey out of fear, but you can only sustain that fear response for so long. Love (or adoration - whatever you want to call it) can be a much tighter chain, and can motivate a person or a pet to a greater degree. In addition, I feel that fear is something that will keep a wall up and a distance between people. If I am really afraid, I am thinking of my own survival and not able to let go and just react like He wants to see. Knowing that He would never really damage me in a permanent way lets me go farther with Him than I could if I was really afraid of Him.

Daddysredhead -> RE: Fear of your Master (1/15/2008 10:36:03 PM)
I think that "fear" is a strong word to use, and perhaps the wrong word. I have told several people in my life who thought that bullying someone else into getting their own way was ok, because they got what they wanted. Fear does not equal respect. I believe that Respect for your Master is much more appropriate. I have been afraid of people in my life who I have had zero respect for. Respect is a much better quality to give and receive. I'd rather have Thing 1 and Thing 2 respect me as their mother than have them fear me out of some sense of fear of punishment or consequences. For a time in their lives one may closely resemble the other, but in the end, I want the respect. In my opinion, if you derive power and control from a fear-driven place, you have not earned the respect that makes another simply want to do right for you or please you. Daddy has told me since we were nilla buddies that if I ever became fearful of him, it would be time to end the friendship because he doesn't want someone around him because they are scared. He wants them in his life because it makes them happy to be there. I agree wholeheartedly. ~ DRH (as always, your mileage may vary)

Marc2b -> RE: Fear of your Master (1/15/2008 10:48:48 PM)
quote: That's exactly how i see it. Thanks! You’re welcome. In light of recent posts I would like to add two things. First, by fear of punishment I don’t mean living every moment as a nervous wreck but rather the knowledge that certain behaviors or rule breaking will result in punishment so that the slave is motivated to obey, even when the Master is not present. For example, say the slave is an ex-smoker (because Master has decided she is an ex-smoker). While out running an errand she finds an unopen pack of cigarettes and is tempted but instead throws them away because a quick glance into the future shows her being found out (when her Master smells cigarette smoke on her) and punished for it. In other words, the fear of punishment (not to mention disappointing her Master) outweighs the temporary pleasure of an illicit smoke. Secondly, I am a firm believer in the carrot as well as the stick. A slave who strives to be obedient, hardworking and pleasing should be rewarded.

laurell3 -> RE: Fear of your Master (1/15/2008 10:53:56 PM)
No. I would never consider a dynamic I was in where I truly feared someone healthy. Being afraid of disappointing, yes. Being intimidated during play...hot. But actually fearing them? Never. In fact in my mind it would be contrary to the trust necessary in my relationships.

Kalista07 -> RE: Fear of your Master (1/15/2008 10:56:51 PM)
Interestingly enough there must've been a post asking this very question about four or five months ago, because i remember we discussed it after i read it....When we discuss something i mean He tells me His point of view on a topic or subject and i tell Him mine...i remember on this one specifically my point was that i know i'm like most human beings and using fear as a motivator will only last so long. There comes a point in any (person, child, animal's) life when fear just is no longer a good enough motivator....Any of us who've been in an abusive relationship can attest to that...Why?? Because eventually the penalties just no longer matter....So, instead of being obedient and proper out of fear i choose to do it out of respect. Out of the respect i have for Him, the respect i have for me, and the respect we have for the relationship itself. Don't misunderstand me fear eventually enters into the relationship....For example there was one time when i knew i had accidentally disobeyed Him.........i was afraid of His response, but not of Him...i knew that i knew that i knew that He would never intentionally harm me, He would never cheat on me, and He'd never bail on me....What more can i ask for. Edited to add i apologize for not reading the question correctly i didn't see the should on there...i do not have any place to speak to what should or shouldn't happen in anyone else's relationships. The only thing i can speak of is what works for me in my relationships and/or what has been my experience.

Honsoku -> RE: Fear of your Master (1/15/2008 10:59:14 PM)
Fear as in terror or constant cowering? No. I don't think a submissive or slave should live in that kind of fear (unless they want to). However, Machiavelli did not distinguish between fear and respect for power. It is one of those ideas that we don't have a good word for. That kind of "fear" comes from an awareness of what the authority could do. A respect for the power he or she has over you. It is a fear that inspires obedience. That kind of "fear" can be appropriate. Personally, I would prefer to inspire obedience through her desire to make me happy, her love if you will. Love is fickle though, and fear is not. There will be times when she just isn't "feeling the love". During those times it will be the "fear" which sees her through. She may not feel like making me happy, but she will do it because she doesn't want to make me unhappy. A healthy dose of both fear and love ensures obedience. She should fear him, but not be afraid of him.

takenbyjohnr07 -> RE: Fear of your Master (1/15/2008 11:07:14 PM)
Wonderful insight posts everyone, thanks so much for that. Keep em coming :)

Kalista07 -> RE: Fear of your Master (1/15/2008 11:10:57 PM)
quote: Love is fickle though, and fear is not Honsoku, Perhaps i'm just getting caugh up in semantics (sp) here....However it would appear to me that since both of these are feelings/ emotions they both would be fickle....Which brings me back to where i think (i hope anyway) i was trying to get with my original post....Sometimes my obedience comes down simply and frankly because i made the committment to do it....i know that doesn't sound very pretty and glamerous, but for me it's a reality...i'm either a woman of my word or i'm not.

Marc2b -> RE: Fear of your Master (1/15/2008 11:11:19 PM)
quote: That kind of "fear" comes from an awareness of what the authority could do. A respect for the power he or she has over you. It is a fear that inspires obedience. That kind of "fear" can be appropriate. Well said. Although I am not a Christian, I believe that this is what most Christians mean (and most non-Christians fail to understand) when people talk about "fearing" Jesus.

AquaticSub -> RE: Fear of your Master (1/15/2008 11:18:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: takenbyjohnr07 so my question is: Should a sub/slave live in fear of their Dominant/Domme? Thanks There isn't a should. Only what works and doesn't work for the people involved. It doesn't work for us. I have no fear of Valyraen at all nor does he desire for me to.

julietsierra -> RE: Fear of your Master (1/15/2008 11:32:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Honsoku Fear as in terror or constant cowering? No. I don't think a submissive or slave should live in that kind of fear (unless they want to). However, Machiavelli did not distinguish between fear and respect for power. It is one of those ideas that we don't have a good word for. That kind of "fear" comes from an awareness of what the authority could do. A respect for the power he or she has over you. It is a fear that inspires obedience. That kind of "fear" can be appropriate. Personally, I would prefer to inspire obedience through her desire to make me happy, her love if you will. Love is fickle though, and fear is not. There will be times when she just isn't "feeling the love". During those times it will be the "fear" which sees her through. She may not feel like making me happy, but she will do it because she doesn't want to make me unhappy. A healthy dose of both fear and love ensures obedience. She should fear him, but not be afraid of him. Well, I do what I do for a number of reasons. First, I do this because it is something I feel most comfortable doing. This is for me. It makes me happy to conduct my life in this manner. I do it for me. Secondly, I do this because it makes him happy. Thirdly, and to address the whole idea of doing what I do even when I'm not exactly smelling the roses in the rose garden, I do it, not out of fear of losing him, but because I said I would. You know, promises made and kept and all that. And not sure if this is fourthly or not, but I do what I do even when things are not wonderful because I recognize that sleep is a wonderful thing. What's bad on Monday might not be so bad on Tuesday and by Wednesday, we may have either gotten it figured out or Monday might just have been on of those days I get from time to time. Nothing a little sleep won't cure. Am I afraid of losing him? Yes. We're both getting older and as we age, that possibility becomes a probability which will eventually become a certainty. Am I afraid of losing him because of something I have done? Not really. We have a pretty stringent relationship and yes, if I choose not to do what he says, I am choosing not to submit, hence I am choosing to end this relationship, but in my mind, since I am not choosing to end this relationship, I shouldn't be worrying about the rest. I'm here because I WANT to be - not because I'm afraid he won't be. That's his decision, not mine. I'm not going to waste the energy worrying over what he has the right to decide for himself. Oh yea...and in our relationship, punishment does not have a place, so this whole notion of fear and love inspiring obedience doesn't really work. I'm obedient because obedience is hot. Can I do more, go more, learn more, and can I get it right? That's what inspires obedience for me. And if I love... well, if I love, it's like winning the lotto, cause I have more than I ever imagined possible. And in my relationship, I get to be a lotto winner. I've lived in fear before. It's not a place that's remotely desired in any way shape or form for me. I resent feeling afraid. It's just not fun, and I much prefer doing what I do because when all else fails, there's the promise I made, not because I'm afraid of some sort of punishment or that they'll walk out the door. Honor and integrity have more meaning to me than fear. juliet

Honsoku -> RE: Fear of your Master (1/15/2008 11:37:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kalista07 quote: Love is fickle though, and fear is not Honsoku, Perhaps i'm just getting caugh up in semantics (sp) here....However it would appear to me that since both of these are feelings/ emotions they both would be fickle....Which brings me back to where i think (i hope anyway) i was trying to get with my original post....Sometimes my obedience comes down simply and frankly because i made the committment to do it....i know that doesn't sound very pretty and glamerous, but for me it's a reality...i'm either a woman of my word or i'm not. Technically, all emotions could be considered fickle. They all start sometime and end some other time (death being the absolute case). Some are just less volatile than others. Also keep in mind that "love" isn't being used in the traditional mushy romantic sense, but in the sense you mean when you say "I love my boss". It is a platonic love. You just don't have that kind of fear of him, it isn't a part of your relationship. I'm not denigrating that, as I said it "can be appropriate", not that it "has to be present". In those cases where you obedience comes from your commitment, you aren't being obedient for or because of him, but out of loyalty and self-discipline. I would be hard pressed to say something is wrong with that.

Honsoku -> RE: Fear of your Master (1/15/2008 11:57:57 PM)
The kind of "fear" I am talking about is a difficult one to grasp. It is not something someone would ever mistake for "living in fear". Instead, it is the kind of fear that a lot of us had for our fathers (and in some cases, our mothers) when we were kids. We loved him, we feared him, but we were not afraid of him. It is something akin to intimidation without trepidation (unless he was mad, then you found ways to become scarce [;)]). Your dynamic is your's. As I said: "that kind of fear can be appropriate". The rest was written treating it as such. quote: ORIGINAL: julietsierra Oh yea...and in our relationship, punishment does not have a place, so this whole notion of fear and love inspiring obedience doesn't really work. I'm obedient because obedience is hot. Can I do more, go more, learn more, and can I get it right? That's what inspires obedience for me. And if I love... well, if I love, it's like winning the lotto, cause I have more than I ever imagined possible. And in my relationship, I get to be a lotto winner. I've lived in fear before. It's not a place that's remotely desired in any way shape or form for me. I resent feeling afraid. It's just not fun, and I much prefer doing what I do because when all else fails, there's the promise I made, not because I'm afraid of some sort of punishment or that they'll walk out the door. Honor and integrity have more meaning to me than fear. juliet

BiteGirl -> RE: Fear of your Master (1/16/2008 12:01:11 AM)
Healthy fear is fine, but fearing the person, the dom, is not healthy. I think that when people write things like that they didn't think of how it would sound to others or were being over-dramatic. But still, I would never contact someone with that written on their profile.

Justme696 -> RE: Fear of your Master (1/16/2008 12:23:11 AM)
We can discuss what levels and kinds there are of fear. But if i read soem profiles mentioning the word Fear, and you read on...i would suggest you take the word fear firstly as the worst possible way possible. Talk to the person...and then in time you might discover what he means with it. Would be sad they he tied you up, and he really means FEAR ps (personal opinion) If a profil says Sadist and uses the word Fear stay away

Evility -> RE: Fear of your Master (1/16/2008 4:27:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Justme696 ps (personal opinion) If a profile says Sadist and uses the word Fear stay away Opinion or not, that's a serious over-simplification. If you're with a sadist and there isn't a bit of fear involved he really isn't much of a sadist in my opinion. Fear for your own safety is very different than other types of fear that can occur in the course of play. I identify as a sadist but I'm really not all that into dispensing enormous amounts of pain. Too many people think sadism always equals pain (yes, I am aware of the dictionary definition of sadism) and see sadists as folks who just want to stand there and wear your ass out beating you with a flogger. There is so much more to it than that. I'd much rather prey upon the psychological side of things (fear) than the physical.

takenbyjohnr07 -> RE: Fear of your Master (1/16/2008 4:52:43 AM)
The person i am refering to (i wish i could remember his screen name) is very young with no actual experience (or very little) The way he wrote his profile he is misleading all these girls into thinking he has years and years under his belt. He posted a thread on the boards and everyone told him, what he was doing wasn't right or safe, but he never listened.

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