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RE: Can unconditional love exist? - 1/16/2008 2:20:22 PM   
LadyHathor


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Status: offline 		I used to think uncomditional love did not exist, until I had an offspring and built a family with her and My mother, I love them both unconditionally---I do not think however, I could say the same about a mate--and yet I haven't found a mate yet that I would say that about.
 
 

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RE: Can unconditional love exist? - 1/16/2008 2:22:34 PM   
szobras


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Joined: 9/18/2006
Status: offline 		Hi Dark,
Is love or can love be in itself - conditional or unconditional?
And does it make a difference in the BDSM relationship, whether it is conditional or not?
Love..., is not a word that I use often, and clearly having love for, and being in love, I differentiate.
I do believe for me in my experiences that love itself is unconditional. I cannot ever recall making a conscious choice comprised of a list of reasons to have felt love for another. Love for another is something that I had become aware that I felt, not a decision I made.
I think more so it is in the capacity and ability to share such an uinherent generousity that we place the actual conditions on, for there is where lay our choices.
Certainly the depth of interaction and countless factors can either be building blocks, or a demolition ball in guiding our depth of emotions to be felt and shared with another.
It makes no difference to me by what vehicle it is exchanged, BDSM or any other. The difference it makes for me, is in the basis of it's origin.
My respects to Darcy
 
 

< Message edited by szobras -- 1/16/2008 2:23:45 PM >

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RE: Can unconditional love exist? - 1/16/2008 2:23:28 PM   
Rover


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quote:

ORIGINAL: camille65

How can love exist without conditions?Isn't something loved because of what it is, its nature?Therefore the love is dependant upon that thing retaining its nature? I love R because of so many reasons, but all revolve around the basic concept of who he is. The condition of his being. Egads this sounds terribly cynical and not at all like me but it feels right for this moment.


I believe this is very well reasoned, and stated.  If love were unconditional, then we would love everyone (and that's obviously a falsehood).  There is a certain undefinable "chemistry" that causes us to love one person, and not another.  And there are certain very definable things that people can do that would preclude the ability to love them any longer.  We see examples of that everyday in the news.
 
We also have our own experiences to consider, in which we have fallen in... and out... of love.  I do not believe it's logical to explain that away by saying that "because it didn't last, it wasn't really love".  To me, this seems to be straying awfully close to the "twue" doctrine.  Besides, it would preclude anyone from proclaiming that they love someone, since such a declaration can only be "twue" in the past tense (ie: it lasted forever) rather than the present tense (ie: it may not last forever).
 
Further, I believe it's possible to love the relationship an individual may have with us (ie: parent, UM, etc.) and still not love the person. 
 
John

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RE: Can unconditional love exist? - 1/16/2008 2:23:29 PM   
RumpusParable


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

quote:

ORIGINAL: RumpusParable 

As much as I love my husband, for example, and have been with him through some very rough things if I found out tomorrow that he'd been raping women, then skinning them alive and eating them or some such I'd stop loving him pretty quick. 


ok.....but what if your child did that? Did John Wayne Gacey's mother stop loving him? this does go round and round and like anything else, when you get to the extreme edges, things can get fuzzy

Jeff


I know my father stopped loving me and I him, for much less than skinning one another alive.  So yes.

Adding on the thought:  I wonder how many are mistasking biological attachment for love when discussing this in regards to offspring... just as most tend to mistake the biological breeding urge with an actual desire to have children, when they are two separate things.

Love is based on who a person is, what they think, what they do, what they say, how they are.  The *person*, the *individual* that they are.

Biological attachment is instinctive and based on relation... one can feel a strong attachment to their mother but not love her at all.  One can feel that intense attachment to their child but not love them at all. 

< Message edited by RumpusParable -- 1/16/2008 2:33:38 PM >

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RE: Can unconditional love exist? - 1/16/2008 2:30:49 PM   
Jeffff


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Status: offline 		ok...the question was retoricle...:), and I apologize for any discomfort

Jeff

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RE: Can unconditional love exist? - 1/16/2008 2:31:25 PM   
camille65


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From: Austin Texas
Status: offline 		Thanks John, I really wasn't sure if I was getting my meaning across. It's a complex answer inside my head that has never really been verbalized before.*does her 'not a total idjit' dance which is frighteningly similiar to the dancing banana*

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RE: Can unconditional love exist? - 1/16/2008 2:34:21 PM   
RumpusParable


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

ok...the question was retoricle...:), and I apologize for any discomfort

Jeff


Oh, no discomfort at all, it's not a negative. But thanks for the thought :)

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RE: Can unconditional love exist? - 1/16/2008 2:34:38 PM   
Jeffff


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Status: offline 		John I purposely endeavored to stay away from any twueisms...:)...As for the falling in n out of love, I would call the infatuation or perhaps lust?...affection? As I said earlier I believe love to be much more rare than often thought of.

Jeff


and thats all for me.....I have responded seriously this whole thread....and thats just not right

< Message edited by Jeffff -- 1/16/2008 2:35:11 PM >

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RE: Can unconditional love exist? - 1/16/2008 2:44:30 PM   
IrishMist


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Status: offline 		I really don’t like using the word love simply because for myself, it’s just a word that has no meaning to it at all; however, for the sake of answering here, I will use it as it is meant to be used in the context that the question was posed.

I believe it’s conditional and to explain my reasons why, I am going to use myself as an example. For me to ‘love’ someone, there have to be certain ….attributes? ( it’s the best I can come up with right now ) that would cause me to want to ‘love’ him; certain things that HAVE TO BE THERE in the first place before it can ever go any deeper. That makes my feelings conditional.

Now, for those who are going to bring up the love that a parent feels for their youngins…that has nothing to do with question that was posed so I am soooo not going to go there

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RE: Can unconditional love exist? - 1/16/2008 2:46:28 PM   
Rover


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

John I purposely endeavored to stay away from any twueisms...:)...


And no aspersions were cast in your direction.  :)

quote:


As for the falling in n out of love, I would call the infatuation or perhaps lust?...affection?


Thus proving the point that if one accepts that love is unconditional and eternal, then it can never be proven in the present tense.
 
John

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RE: Can unconditional love exist? - 1/16/2008 2:49:10 PM   
Jeffff


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Status: offline 		oh yeah?..........well.......na na na na na!!...:).

Jeff

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RE: Can unconditional love exist? - 1/16/2008 2:51:28 PM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
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Status: offline 		You have cut me to the quick.  :)
 
John

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RE: Can unconditional love exist? - 1/16/2008 2:53:24 PM   
Jeffff


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Status: offline 		naaaaaaaaaa.. I was going easy on you

DebatingDom

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RE: Can unconditional love exist? - 1/16/2008 2:55:13 PM   
dreamysubmale


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

This isn't a question about being a condition of a relationship, but love in itself.
 
Is love or can love be in itself - conditional or unconditional?
And does it make a difference in the BDSM relationship, whether it is conditional or not?
 
I vote that it is never unconditional.  I feel the same about domination and submission as well, but that's another thread.  Just interested in others thoughts.
 
the.dark.
 
 


What we all really want more than anything else is to be loved unconditionally; to be accepted for who we really are and still be loved.

And as Jeffff mentioned, the word “Love” lacks the power it deserves. We often confuse it with the meaning of the word want or desire, for our selfish reasons. Love in my opinion is putting someone’s wishes, wants, needs and desires above ones own.

But too much unconditional love can be unhealthy.

                                                                    
 

You can complain because roses have thorns, or you can rejoice because thorns have roses.

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RE: Can unconditional love exist? - 1/16/2008 2:57:41 PM   
subtee


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quote:

I believe this is very well reasoned, and stated.  If love were unconditional, then we would love everyone (and that's obviously a falsehood). 


I’m sorry, I don’t see a natural flow of logic here.
 
quote:

 
There is a certain undefinable "chemistry" that causes us to love one person, and not another


If it is undefinable (sic), how is it you have made an absolute out of it?
 
quote:

And there are certain very definable things that people can do that would preclude the ability to love them any longer.  We see examples of that everyday in the news.

 
I don’t believe this is true for me and my UMs. It cannot be proved empirically, of course, but I don’t believe this is the case for me. (I acknowledge it may be for you.)

quote:

Further, I believe it's possible to love the relationship an individual may have with us (ie: parent, UM, etc.) and still not love the person. 


I realize you didn’t assign this as an “in general” statement, since you prefaced it with “it’s possible,” however I can assure you it’s not just the relationship I love either. The relationship is one of the more difficult things in my life (they’re teenagers, god help me). What I love is them.
 
And may i ask Camille:
 
quote:


How can love exist without conditions?

Isn't something loved because of what it is, its nature?

Therefore the love is dependant upon that thing retaining its nature?


So, hypothetically, if your Sir fell into a coma (god forbid!), no longer expressing nor retaining his “nature”……? (Curious, please.)

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RE: Can unconditional love exist? - 1/16/2008 2:58:56 PM   
Prinsexx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

This isn't a question about being a condition of a relationship, but love in itself.
 
Is love or can love be in itself - conditional or unconditional?
And does it make a difference in the BDSM relationship, whether it is conditional or not?
 
I vote that it is never unconditional.  I feel the same about domination and submission as well, but that's another thread.  Just interested in others thoughts.
 
the.dark.

Yes love can be unconditional.
In therapy it is known as unconditional positive regard.
I also believe I love my children unconditionally.
I prefer to use the term absolute love as that is a term without a negative. I mean by it a defintion that exists outside of the box, outside of duality and outside of opposition.
I also love my Master whether it is reciprocated or not and my love for Him exists, at the moment, in the understanding that he 'doesn't do love'. It exists for Him i think especially because he 'doesn't do' love. I guess my love for Him falls short of absolute even though it it unreciprocal because it carries His conditions within the dynamic, upon which my love exists.
There have been times in my life when I believed that God existed and that God's love was unconditional/absolute.
There are those times when I felt there has been no-one else for me except God and therefore I have believed that.
Honestly? For me, by definition, love is unconditional.
Anything else is something else other than love, limited by romantic idealism, or legalised documenation, or bound by duty or obligation, or by fear.
I am not saying i am capable of unconditional positive regard or love for everyone even though all of my trainings and all of life's tests have been raw and tough, both personally and professionally.
All i know is that ifeel good when i remember the promise i made to someone i considered a guru some years, many years ago, that all expressions are expressins of absolute love. It's a fucker to get my head round it but it comes from the intelligence of the heart.


< Message edited by Prinsexx -- 1/16/2008 3:02:32 PM >

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RE: Can unconditional love exist? - 1/16/2008 3:00:08 PM   
Justme696


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Status: offline 		IT is funny how clinical people talk about love....untill they really fall in love and are blinded by it

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RE: Can unconditional love exist? - 1/16/2008 3:09:45 PM   
tricia


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Status: offline 		I believe in unconditional love.  I also believe there are very few people capable of it.
After reading Taggards response, I'm actually wondering if he is right in thinking it wouldn't be healthy, anyway.

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RE: Can unconditional love exist? - 1/16/2008 3:10:39 PM   
ownedgirlie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

I really don’t like using the word love simply because for myself, it’s just a word that has no meaning to it at all;


I am really interested in this statement...but if it's not something you want to discuss here, I understand.  If it's something you are open to discussing, may I ask why it has no meaning?

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RE: Can unconditional love exist? - 1/16/2008 3:16:57 PM   
camille65


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

So, hypothetically, if your Sir fell into a coma (god forbid!), no longer expressing nor retaining his “nature”……? (Curious, please.)
 As I said, all of this is off the cuff and unformed thoughts previously unverbalized. If he were to become comatose his intrinsic nature would not change, only the way he expresses (to non expression) would change.None of what I said is an absolute, just things I'm feeling out as I type. What it stemmed from was thinking about 'why' I love someone, why I don't love another.The people that I love give something to me, or there is a part that connects with me on a deeper level because of their nature. There is a fit, a match of some kind. Oy I am too tired to be fully coherent but I am trying. I think that people love others for what they receive. Not gifts/attention/physical things. Not that sort of receive but more of an instinctive give and take. Okies I am seriously unable to maintain, apologies. Pain meds. The thoughts are there I just cannot seem to reach them properly.Will be a passive observer for the most part, here on out. Over and out.

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