RE: Can unconditional love exist?

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IrishMist -> RE: Can unconditional love exist? (1/17/2008 8:08:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: charmdpetKeira ~fr~ I would like to slightly change my previous answer. I doubt I would unconditionally love someone; it takes knowing, trust, and respect for me to open up enough for “love”, to happen.. How can I love someone I’ve never met? On the other hand, I can love someone unconditionally, and do; that is what love is. Sometimes loving someone means; walking away, letting them fall, or even pushing them. Love is not always kind, but it is sincere. k I just want to say that this is what I was trying to get across in my first post. Charmed said it more clearly than I did.

Phoenix2raven -> RE: Can unconditional love exist? (1/17/2008 8:13:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie I believe love is conditional. Now, I do not have offspring, so perhaps in that case it is different. But having once believed love was unconditional, I can honestly say I no longer love my ex husband, after he did horrible things to me. While I can not fathom never loving my Master, I would imagine he could make it so, if he chose. I don't anticipate that, but I believe it is possible. Perhaps it is the cynic in me, but I think "unconditional love" is a romantic phrase that is unrealistic. The optimist in me hopes that I am incorrect. i think it's just different for everyone. i can say i love everyone i've ever known, even those exes who did horrible things. i love them in a way that i hope they're not doing horrible things now to whoever they're with, i wish them well. i don't think unconditional love is a romantic thing at all. it just is. but if you're in a romantic relationship with someone, it can be very delicious! unless of course they set conditions with their own love, which hurts .. but perhaps receiving unconditional love might heal whatever wounds they have that causes them to set conditions?

subtee -> RE: Can unconditional love exist? (1/17/2008 8:45:24 AM)
Definitions of condition on the Web: a state at a particular time; "a condition (or state) of disrepair"; "the current status of the arms negotiations" a mode of being or form of existence of a person or thing; "the human condition" an assumption on which rests the validity or effect of something else establish a conditioned response (usually plural) a statement of what is required as part of an agreement; "the contract set out the conditions of the lease"; "the terms of the treaty were generous" discipline: train by instruction and practice; especially to teach self-control; "Parents must discipline their children"; "Is this dog trained?" the state of (good) health (especially in the phrases `in condition' or `in shape' or `out of condition' or `out of shape') stipulate: specify as a condition or requirement in a contract or agreement; make an express demand or provision in an agreement; "The will stipulates that she can live in the house for the rest of her life"; "The contract stipulates the dates of the payments" circumstance: information that should be kept in mind when making a decision; "another consideration is the time it would take" put into a better state; "he conditions old cars" apply conditioner to in order to make smooth and shiny; "I condition my hair after washing it" the procedure that is varied in order to estimate a variable's effect by comparison with a control condition wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn Definitions of unconditional on the Web not conditional; "unconditional surrender" categoric: not modified or restricted by reservations; "a categorical denial"; "a flat refusal" not contingent; not determined or influenced by someone or something else wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn It seems to me this is an instance in which the prefix “un” does not make an antithetical to every definition of the root word. According to the above definitions, “unconditional” is antithetical to requirements, contingencies or provisions or circumstances as considerations…not circumstance or the state of being in and of itself.

charmdpetKeira -> RE: Can unconditional love exist? (1/17/2008 8:47:50 AM)
JM and IM, It is not always easy for me to express myself here on the boards; tough medium for me. When I have managed to do so, in manner that others can appreciate, it is an uplifting experience. Thank you both for your kind words. Sincerely, k

Kalista07 -> RE: Can unconditional love exist? (1/17/2008 8:53:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLord WARNING- Part of this post contains descriptions which may be overly offensive to some (and hopefully at least modestly offensive to everyone else). This is a post to make a point, but it may be unpleasant to be read. Often, I have an internal debate with myself over whether or not it's a good thing to break people of the superstition of religion. Just because it's not true.. is that enough? I often feel that it's so fundamentally blinding to an individual's ability to perceive reality that it's worth doing away with. Unconditional love, though? I can prove that it's conditional. Start destroying parts of a person's brain where love is processed until it ceases.. which is one simple demonstration. Or.. well, can anyone watch their lover do something truly henious.. such as rape, then skin alive, rape again, then choke to death their children.. and still love the wretch? I think there's love with loose conditions.. love that's relatively hard to break.. but unconditional love? This strikes me as a stretch. I think it's one of those myths I haven't so much against. It may be untrue, but.. well, I just don't see it warping the foundation of someone's life and being so badly as religion. CL, despite the fact that i have absolutely no effort or energy to go here today.....well....here i am...i've never been willing to entertain this subject before......However.....Despite the horrible, dispicable (sp), evil, illegal, horrible things my 'father' did to me on a daily basis................i still loved Him...When He died, i was there at this death bed........i was the one in the hospital with him every day thos last 8 days..... As he laid there dying i told him i loved him and that i forgave him.....If that's not unconditional love..................than what is?

Justme696 -> RE: Can unconditional love exist? (1/17/2008 8:56:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: charmdpetKeira JM and IM, It is not always easy for me to express myself here on the boards; tough medium for me. When I have managed to do so, in manner that others can appreciate, it is an uplifting experience. Thank you both for your kind words. Sincerely, k you are very welcome :)

subtee -> RE: Can unconditional love exist? (1/17/2008 8:56:12 AM)
Camille, I'm sorry you're in pain. Thank you for taking the time anyway to help me understand your thoughts.

Justme696 -> RE: Can unconditional love exist? (1/17/2008 8:57:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kalista07 quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLord WARNING- Part of this post contains descriptions which may be overly offensive to some (and hopefully at least modestly offensive to everyone else). This is a post to make a point, but it may be unpleasant to be read. Often, I have an internal debate with myself over whether or not it's a good thing to break people of the superstition of religion. Just because it's not true.. is that enough? I often feel that it's so fundamentally blinding to an individual's ability to perceive reality that it's worth doing away with. Unconditional love, though? I can prove that it's conditional. Start destroying parts of a person's brain where love is processed until it ceases.. which is one simple demonstration. Or.. well, can anyone watch their lover do something truly henious.. such as rape, then skin alive, rape again, then choke to death their children.. and still love the wretch? I think there's love with loose conditions.. love that's relatively hard to break.. but unconditional love? This strikes me as a stretch. I think it's one of those myths I haven't so much against. It may be untrue, but.. well, I just don't see it warping the foundation of someone's life and being so badly as religion. CL, despite the fact that i have absolutely no effort or energy to go here today.....well....here i am...i've never been willing to entertain this subject before......However.....Despite the horrible, dispicable (sp), evil, illegal, horrible things my 'father' did to me on a daily basis................i still loved Him...When He died, i was there at this death bed........i was the one in the hospital with him every day thos last 8 days..... As he laid there dying i told him i loved him and that i forgave him.....If that's not unconditional love..................than what is? :( that was hard to read. I know as a stranger my words have no vallue, but you can be proud on yourself...very much so

JDEmpath -> RE: Can unconditional love exist? (1/17/2008 9:29:19 AM)
I have little to add to what has been said, since a million people would give a million very different answers. For me, unconditional love is the only love for which I wish. I believe in the existence of unconditional love and I follow it as often as I am able to be free from my ego's need to hold on to things, or people. I do not see this as absolute. Perhaps I might be the only one so far to mention this (If not, forgive me, It is a very long thread after all), but the concept of unconditional love cannot be looked upon as being a destination. It must be a path, since placing conditions on events (example: I will be happy if only I could fill this blank _____________), is a trait that we all share. It is interesting to me however, that some of us wish to transcend this aspect of human nature. I am one of them. So for me, unconditional love is the "holy grail", and life is the "quest". Whether or not I achieve the grail does not matter. The only thing that matters is that I follow the path to the grail. In regards to relationships, I have had a real life test in unconditional love. When my former slave left to pursue her dreams, it hurt me terribly, but if I had tried to make her stay, I would have been living a lie, since above all else, we must follow our perfect dreams. We still love each other just as much as ever, but our M/s relationship is over. It is my responsibility to stay on the path of unconditional love, and it is a hard path to follow when you must confront the vast bastion of inner conflict coming from possessiveness, the need for revenge, or perhaps even just simple loneliness. I do what I can, and, as much as it hurts, I prefer it to the alternative of giving up on the path to unconditional love.

Justme696 -> RE: Can unconditional love exist? (1/17/2008 9:33:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JDEmpath I have little to add to what has been said, since a million people would give a million very different answers. For me, unconditional love is the only love for which I wish. I believe in the existence of unconditional love and I follow it as often as I am able to be free from my ego's need to hold on to things, or people. I do not see this as absolute. Perhaps I might be the only one so far to mention this (If not, forgive me, It is a very long thread after all), but the concept of unconditional love cannot be looked upon as being a destination. It must be a path, since placing conditions on events (example: I will be happy if only I could fill this blank _____________), is a trait that we all share. It is interesting to me however, that some of us wish to transcend this aspect of human nature. I am one of them. So for me, unconditional love is the "holy grail", and life is the "quest". Whether or not I achieve the grail does not matter. The only thing that matters is that I follow the path to the grail. In regards to relationships, I have had a real life test in unconditional love. When my former slave left to pursue her dreams, it hurt me terribly, but if I had tried to make her stay, I would have been living a lie, since above all else, we must follow our perfect dreams. We still love each other just as much as ever, but our M/s relationship is over. It is my responsibility to stay on the path of unconditional love, and it is a hard path to follow when you must confront the vast bastion of inner conflict coming from possessiveness, the need for revenge, or perhaps even just simple loneliness. I do what I can, and, as much as it hurts, I prefer it to the alternative of giving up on the path to unconditional love. nice view...... agree..one always should wish for the best.....I guess that is good for the relation too..and one can propably come close to "unconditional"

juliaoceania -> RE: Can unconditional love exist? (1/17/2008 9:43:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rover quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania I posted earlier about an unconditional love I have for my ex husband, and he has done some very mean, nasty, abusive things to me. What is that proof of, other than he has not gone far enough to reach a condition in which you no longer are able to love him? What if he were to (God forbid) do something awful to your UM? This is really like the many "no limits" threads in that respect. John He did do something awful to our son (who is an adult now), he abandoned him and ignored him. The longer the time went by, the harder it was to reestablish a relationship. Now, I know my ex. I know the emotional challenges he has had. The addictions he has been tormented with. I forgave him because I love the person we brought into the world. I cannot separate the fact is he will always be the person that I chose to have my genetic legacy with. I have tried to help my son mend this relationship for my his sake, but if I did not have some love left over for his father, I doubt I could be that big about it.

ownedgirlie -> RE: Can unconditional love exist? (1/17/2008 10:02:04 AM)
Hi Julia, You mentioned forgiving your ex because of the person you brought into this world. Perhaps that's what makes a difference here. I forgave my ex for being the person he is, because I had to. I had to be able to finally let go of all of it. But forgiveness does not equate to love (not saying you said that). He killed any reason I had to love him, and I took my love back. We had no little ones. He denied me that. He spent last September in a psych ward for a suicide attempt and other disturbing threats. I had no inclination to visit him or even ask about him. I realized I finally felt nothing for him - neither hatred nor love. It was very liberating.

Justme696 -> RE: Can unconditional love exist? (1/17/2008 10:06:42 AM)
quote: I realized I finally felt nothing for him - neither hatred nor love. It was very liberating. mm I know that feeling. The emptiness supprised me first...but then i noticed I relaxed

juliaoceania -> RE: Can unconditional love exist? (1/17/2008 10:20:28 AM)
I think that people experience life differently, thank goodness that we all do, because it makes planet Earth a wondrous place. I think that every view of love is valid, and if that way of expressing/viewing love if satisfying to that person, well that is what it is all about. I have heard many people say love doesn't exist at all. In fact there is one guy I have an online friendship with that I have often talked about these matters with him because he is extremely positive, but he insist that there is no such thing as love at all, we are only appreciating how that person makes us feel. So basically, in his mind, the way he feels about others is all about him, not them. He thinks love equates appreciation. I have had a hard time debunking his view of things, because it is valid to him. It makes him happy to view the world this way, and it has freed him in his mind. I think there is reward in the effort to love without condition. In my heart, for me, it not attractive to think of my love as a transactional thing... "you give me this, I will continue to love you". "If you do not provide for my happiness, life satisfaction and my abundance, I will take my love back". It isn't a healthy view of love *for me*. I have loved most people my entire life like that, and it just doesn't work for me anymore. I suppose I love myself enough these days that I do not need other people to perform these transactions for my love anymore. If they quit being what I wanted them to be, then I am still me, and I love me enough. In that way (and I know many people will not understand what I am about to write) I am loving them unconditionally by loving myself that way. Now I fall short of this at times, but for the most part, I try to approach those I love this way. I loved what LaT said, sometimes she doesn't even like those people she loves, it doesn't mean she lacks love for them... because her love isn't contingent on liking them. It is very hard to accept people as they are, and not how we want them to be. THAT is what unconditional love is for me. It is saying to that person "I love you for who you are, not what I imagine you should be or are".

lynn20063 -> RE: Can unconditional love exist? (1/17/2008 10:38:50 AM)
to me love is unconditional...once I love someone I love my children,though my son has went bad and done some very hurtful and harmful things, but I am not talking familial love here I love my former master,though he never did love me...I am hopeing that time will make me not be ' in love' with him, but he will always have a corner of my heart because the ones that I have really loved, lust and affection and appreciation aside, those always have a small corner of my obviously not square heart...to me that speaks of being unconditional

ownedgirlie -> RE: Can unconditional love exist? (1/17/2008 11:53:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phoenix2raven .. but perhaps receiving unconditional love might heal whatever wounds they have that causes them to set conditions? This is what healed my mother and I. I finally came to see and accept her unconditional love for me, despite that she did not know how to show it in my upbringing. We are extremely close now.

ownedgirlie -> RE: Can unconditional love exist? (1/17/2008 11:55:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Justme696 quote: I realized I finally felt nothing for him - neither hatred nor love. It was very liberating. mm I know that feeling. The emptiness supprised me first...but then i noticed I relaxed I didn't feel it as emptiness. The loss of emotions toward my ex left me left more room for other goodness to fill me.

ownedgirlie -> RE: Can unconditional love exist? (1/17/2008 11:59:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania I think there is reward in the effort to love without condition. In my heart, for me, it not attractive to think of my love as a transactional thing... "you give me this, I will continue to love you". "If you do not provide for my happiness, life satisfaction and my abundance, I will take my love back". It isn't a healthy view of love *for me*. I cut your post for brevity but I appreciated all of it. Tit-for-tat love is not healthy for me, either. I came to love my Master because of who he is and what he is, regardless if he loved me in return. I love other friends in the same way. What I mean by conditional is not such a give and take transaction, but I found that I have a certain threshold (which is bigger than I thought it would be) and if someone hurts me enough, the love goes away. With my ex it was after he stole my home, my money, all my belongings, and finally, when he stole all of my possessions of my Dad, who had just died. At some point, love just goes away. I think he is probably the first person who I experienced this with.

juliaoceania -> RE: Can unconditional love exist? (1/17/2008 12:14:42 PM)
I thought I would post what wiki says about this, not because they are the last word, or it "proves" anything, but because the concept of unconditional love is not by taking the words separately, but taking them together to define a large concept. Such as the word compact means one thing, and the word car means another... when you combine them they have a meaning that conveys a definite idea.. a compact car. To me unconditonal love describes the love you have for someone that means accepting them the way that they are, loving them for who they are, and allowing them to be who they are... I suppose there is nothing in the world that is without condition, so it makes the use of the word "unconditional" without meaning if we were going to expand it out... there is no such anything that exists without condition. Here is what wiki says quote: Unconditional love is a concept that means showing love towards someone regardless of his or her actions or beliefs. It is a concept comparable to true love, a term which is more frequently used to describe love between lovers. By contrast unconditional love is frequently used to describe love between family members, comrades in arms and between others in highly committed relationships. It has also been used in a "religious" context to describe God's love for mankind. but see its not religious. because religion is the means to get information for your siritual growth. you have to also use your own brain to learn about God by reading His word. being religous is not a good thing. because that means you are more worried about what you are being labeled than about actually having a relationship with God. Some secular authors make a distinction between unconditional love and conditional love. In conditional love: love is 'earned' on the basis of conscious or unconscious conditions being met by the lover, whereas in unconditional love, love is 'given freely' to the loved one 'no matter what'. Conditional love requires some kind of finite exchange whereas unconditional love is seen as infinite and measureless. Unconditional love should not be mistaken with unconditional dedication: unconditional dedication refers to an act of the will irrespective of feelings (e.g a person may consider they have a duty to stay with a person); unconditional love is an act of the feelings irrespective of will. Harold W. Becker, author and founder of The Love Foundation, Inc., defines Unconditional Love as "an unlimited way of being." From his book of the same title, Becker goes on to say that "the greatest power known to man is that of unconditional love. Through the ages, mystics, sages, singers and poets all expressed the ballad and call to love. As humans, we searched endlessly for the experience of love through the outer senses. Great civilizations have come and gone under the guise of love for their people. Religions have flourished and perished while claiming the true path to love. We, the people of this planet, may have missed the simplicity of unconditional love. ...Simply stated, unconditional love is an unlimited way of being. We are without any limit to our thoughts and feelings in life and can create any reality we choose to focus our attention upon. The qualities of love are endless and the expressions are infinite. The power of unconditional love is within each of us." (emphasis added by me)

ownedgirlie -> RE: Can unconditional love exist? (1/17/2008 12:28:55 PM)
Thanks, Julia. I can't help but feel there is something in between. I suppose we can "earn" each other's love, just as people say they have to earn someone's respect. That I love my friends because they are good people is, perhaps, predicated on the fact that they are good people. I love friends with whom I am no longer in contact for one reason or another, simply because they have touched something in me at some point. So my love for them is predicated on them having touched me inside. As for my ex, I loved him despite the pain, the confusion, the abuse, the neglect. I loved him because at one time he had truly touched me. I continued to love him even after I left him. But he ultimately caused enough harm until I no longer felt such love - he no longer touched me; instead, he numbed me to him. So perhaps my love for him, while for nearly 20 years I felt unconditional, was indeed conditional on him being someone who touched me and who I could love. So it's not like "If you do XYZ I will love you," it's more like, once I love you - you have my full love...until such time you abuse it enough so that it dies. I used to think I was capable of unconditional love; I no longer do, based on what happened with the ex. He is the first person I believe I have ever just stopped loving.

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