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RE: Forced submission - 1/18/2008 1:03:22 PM   
Honsoku


Posts: 422
Joined: 6/26/2007
Status: offline 		Edited to add: This post is made a bit redundant by my next one, though this probably provides a more in depth explanation. The post my next one responds to wasn't up by the time I started writing this one (I'm a slooow writer).

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Honsoku, I take it your definition of bdsm related dominance and submission is that a submissive doesn't want to do the things she is doing for you? That your dominance doesn't so much change her mind but forces her do those things anyway?


Not really, that just makes it the clearest example for the presence of force, as it is the kind of domination in which force is the most apparent. Just the same way one doesn't try to demonstrate gravity by showing how two tennis balls pull on each other, you do it by dropping a book.

quote:

For me, I don't want force, as you use the term, anywhere near what I do. I am 6'2, physically large and intellectually imposing and I find using my power to force someone into doing or thinking what I want boring and effortless.


I don't anyone here has really understood how I use the term. I use force in the same way someone would describe gravity or the "forces" on an object. It isn't good nor bad, it just is. It might fit better for reading if every time I use the word "force" replace it with "influence". I don't really distinguish between the two in this case (as influence is a type of force), but they carry much different implications.

People apply force on each other all the time, without even realizing it. Because we are social creatures, we respond to each other to some degree. Whenever you express an emotion, like happiness, it affects those around you. Those around you in turn feel a pressure, a force, an influence, compelling them to react in some manner. The force is all in the other person's head, you are just are pushing the buttons.

Think about it this way; you and someone else are floating in a perfectly still pool. What happens if you do anything, even breathe? You will send ripples in the water that will reach the other person. Those ripples will push, apply force, on the other person just a tad. It's not good, it's not bad, it just is. A person can not help but to apply some manner of force on another when interacting with them. Just as our interaction here on this board has applied some degree of force on each other and the others reading.

quote:

I don't want to browbeat her into doing/enjoying something, I want to enlighten her, enrich her life, nurture her so that she finds her own joy in obeying me. Submission, as I use the term, isn't something taken, it isn't something given, it is something that is inspired. That being "mine" brings her an inner calm and happiness that provides the inspiration to do things that, at times, provide pleasure only to me and her only reward is knowing she has pleased me.


That is using the power, the force, the influence that you have in a positive way. The accepting of the influence is voluntarily on her part, but you still apply it. You are using the power that you have to enrich both of your lives. "Force" is neutral, it is neither good or bad. It is the context in which the force is used which determines that.

< Message edited by Honsoku -- 1/18/2008 1:53:14 PM >

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Forced submission - 1/18/2008 1:15:22 PM   
txnights05


Posts: 51
Joined: 7/12/2005
Status: offline 		~fr~

I am a strong willed individual and i don't take to being told what to do very well sometimes... i have always tended to buck authority if it goes against what i want to do. I've had a defiant streak since childhood. For me to be in a D/s relationship i need that contest of wills at the beginning to set the boundries. I don't use the word force in a physical sense... it is all mental for me.  It isn't about being forced to do things i don't want to do but will do because i have no other choice. It is about having an outcome wherein i know that he is in control. In order for me to submit i need to know that control is there so that i don't need to be in control any longer. For me that takes testing the water so to speak. I need the initial power struggle...

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Forced submission - 1/18/2008 1:28:24 PM   
Honsoku


Posts: 422
Joined: 6/26/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
In international relations there are some terms that might be useful for this debate, hard power and soft power. Hard power refers to the use of military or economic forces to make someone do what you want. Soft power refers to influence. A good example would be on the issue of civil rights, if Saudi Arabia has very little soft power on that issue because they are so abusive but a country like Switzerland has a lot of soft power on that issue.

I prefer to use soft power, who I am and my actions inspire submission.


Exactly. I have been using force as a catchall phrase for the use of both hard and soft power, and I think most people have been interpreting to mean just the use of hard power. This along with my personal stance on free will (which I view as rather limited) is what I think is causing the confusion. Because of my view of free will as rather limited, I don't draw a distinction between hard and soft power as far as how the power creates a response on the part of the person being influenced (what that response is, is a whole 'nother question).

quote:

Now don't get me wrong, playing with force is very very hot. Grabbing someone by the throat, shoving them up against the wall and ripping their clothes off is hot, but it isn't hot because they are too weak to resist me. Instead, I think for many, feeling the raw power of their lover, THEIR LOVER being the operative concept, makes them feel safe because their lover is so strong/powerful. But that enjoyment of being overpowered isn't given/felt regardless of who is doing the overpowering, it is restricted quite narrowly to their lover/s.


No argument here.


< Message edited by Honsoku -- 1/18/2008 2:27:26 PM >

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Forced submission - 1/18/2008 1:53:03 PM   
slavegirljoy


Posts: 1207
Joined: 11/6/2006
From: North Carolina, USA
Status: offline 		There is a difference between the presence of "a force" and "being forced."  You keep speaking of a force being present within a D/s relationship and, that may very well be true but, the OP stated that she had been "forced" into being a slave.  Big Difference between the two. 
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: ferriemistie

my first Dom forced me to be His slave after W/we got married and to begin with i resisted. After a couple severe punishments i gave in a was a "good girl"..


If someone is willing to submit, there isn't any need for them to "be forced", in order to submit.  Obedience also doesn't require "being forced". 
 
i obey speed limits, not because anyone is "forcing" me but, because i know it's in my best interest to do so, in order to reduce my risk of losing control of my vehicle and being in an accident.
 
i obey the rules of my teacher when i am taking a class, not because i am being forced to, but because it's in my best interest to do so, in order to get the most from the class. 
 
i obey the rules of my Master, not because i am forced to, but because it's in my best interest to do so, in order to maintain a healthy, happy, and satisfying relationship, without turmoil or conflict and to satisfy my internal drive to be submissive within an intimate relationship.
 
Adj.  submissive - inclined or willing to submit to orders or wishes of others or showing such inclination

tr.v. forced, forc·ing, forc·es
1. To compel through pressure or necessity
a. To gain by the use of force or coercion
c. To produce with effort and against one's will
 
joy
Owned (and Willingly Obedient) servant of Master David

quote:

ORIGINAL: Honsoku

the presence of force

quote:

I use force in the same way someone would describe gravity or the "forces" on an object.

quote:

"Force" is neutral, it is neither good or bad. It is the context in which the force is used which determines that.


< Message edited by slavegirljoy -- 1/18/2008 1:54:23 PM >

(in reply to Honsoku)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Forced submission - 1/18/2008 2:10:36 PM   
SubbieOnWheels


Posts: 590
Joined: 12/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slavegirljoy
tr.v. forced, forc·ing, forc·es
1. To compel through pressure or necessity
a. To gain by the use of force or coercion
c. To produce with effort and against one's will
 
joy


There. Someone finally came up with the definition. My reading of the OP's original post suggests the definition above. The meaning I gleaned was that of the synonym of "coercion."

I was coerced into submission - not through beatings, but through sweet talk and being told that it was something every couple did (or secretly wanted to do). Being a neophyte at sex in general, I had no idea whether he was right or wrong. By the time I realized he was wrong, I had learned that I enjoyed it. That led to my guilty feelings later.



_____________________________

Bethical
Beat me, strike me, take away my reindeer! I'll never tell! -- Walt Kelly, Pogo Possum
I yam what I yam - Popeye

http://www.myspace.com/bethical_wheels


(in reply to slavegirljoy)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Forced submission - 1/18/2008 2:59:02 PM   
GoddessTeaze


Posts: 1125
Joined: 10/14/2006
From: The Netherlands
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696
I had a slave friend once, that was abused in a relation. SHe thought in the end it was normal in a Ms relation and didn't know how to life with out.

They call that the battered woman syndrome,
and either she is lucky and finds a good dominant, or is out there to keep on getting abused, untill she realises what she is doing.

To the Op. Well done that you left him,
what he did was wrong, Bdsm is a choice,
you chose to live that way.
And someone who is forcing you in that?
Is simply out of his mind.

Warm Greetingz

GoddezzT`



_____________________________

~* The only disability in life is a bad attitude. ~Scott Hamilton*~

~*Beauty is not in the face; beauty is a light in the heart. ~Kahlil Gibran*~

(in reply to Justme696)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Forced submission - 1/18/2008 3:48:27 PM   
whenstarscollide


Posts: 90
Joined: 11/24/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slavegirljoy

Adj.  submissive - inclined or willing to submit to orders or wishes of others or showing such inclination

tr.v. forced, forc·ing, forc·es
1. To compel through pressure or necessity
a. To gain by the use of force or coercion
c. To produce with effort and against one's will



yay for semantics!

_____________________________




(in reply to slavegirljoy)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Forced submission - 1/18/2008 4:00:52 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Honsoku



Really, we need a third term because obedience and submission overlap. All submission requires obedience, but not all obedience requires submission.


Surrender.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to Honsoku)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Forced submission - 1/18/2008 4:14:44 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		I tend to see "surrender" as giving up something we do not want to give up.  I want this for myself but surrender it to you.  It's a word I see used a lot, and which I used to use myself, but no longer do, since I am have willingly chosen to give him everything, and those things I have wanted for myself I have been willingly letting go of.  Surrender is if I begrudgingly let go...at least it feels that way to me.

(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Forced submission - 1/19/2008 5:01:31 AM   
Justme696


Posts: 3236
Joined: 1/7/2008
From: Royal kingdom of the Netherlands
Status: offline
quote:

They call that the battered woman syndrome,
and either she is lucky and finds a good dominant, or is out there to keep on getting abused, untill she realises what she is doing.


Oh it ihas even a name. Thank you.
I took me 2 years and lots of fights with her..till she noticed it was bad.
Weird to see people that don't know love or not beeing able to recieve it.


_____________________________

~Been there, done that, got the t-shirt

(in reply to GoddessTeaze)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Forced submission - 1/19/2008 6:10:33 AM   
HalloweenWhite


Posts: 1028
Joined: 6/20/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ferriemistie

To begin with He forced me but then i willingly submitted to Him.. (at first it was to just stop the "beatings" but then i actually enjoyed doing it.) Does that make sense


He beat you to make you do what he wanted??? Not good, not healthy and not very legal either.

(in reply to ferriemistie)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Forced submission - 1/19/2008 6:39:14 AM   
GoddessTeaze


Posts: 1125
Joined: 10/14/2006
From: The Netherlands
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696
Weird to see people that don't know love or not beeing able to recieve it.
There is a history behind such Justyou696,
Mostly it started in their childhood.
 
~I hope she is safe now~
 
Warm Greetingz
 
GoddezzT`


_____________________________

~* The only disability in life is a bad attitude. ~Scott Hamilton*~

~*Beauty is not in the face; beauty is a light in the heart. ~Kahlil Gibran*~

(in reply to Justme696)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Forced submission - 1/19/2008 2:33:47 PM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ferriemistie

To begin with He forced me but then i willingly submitted to Him.. (at first it was to just stop the "beatings" but then i actually enjoyed doing it.) Does that make sense


It (force) makes perfect sense. If people wanted to, they could split hairs over the elements of "freedom" in BDSM ad nauseam.

I readily understood what you were tying to say, which is that your Dom forcefully prevailed upon you to submit --- pushing you past your limits and reordering your consciousness and self image in the process.

To answer your question, I'm not sure how I would be in such a situation. In my marriage I have a liberated life --- and live like an adult who makes his own choices and who runs his own business and household. (I keep house and run a home based business.)

In my secondary relationship I have a BDSM relationship --- which by all accounts is a BDSM "light" situation. (A secondary partner cannot "own" you or go places that a primary can.) Not only that, but my Domme is married herself, so her husband is also her first priority.

If I wanted to, I could definitely view my situation as lacking: I can't explore the "darker" aspects of BDSM. On the other hand, I am not encumbered by BDSM either: I don't have to get permission to watch TV, play tennis, select movies, read books, make friends, post on a MB, etc.

I think my experience (being poly with two woman) has actually taught me something strange: that in the end, I am responsible for myself. Stability resides within me --- and I must have my own inner faith --- to keep going.

This is truth is magnified by how my Domme and wife do not really get along. It means that my intimacy is divided into separate worlds with no real overlap or reinforcement. Some might say this is a bad, untenable situation (I met LA once, and that's what she thought.)

Regardless, though, I've learned to rely on me first --- as the main source of stability in things --- and I think this is a lesson life teaches many of us --- because outer intimacy as source of self-esteem and stability ---- is a bumpy ride.

I'll close by saying: try to find your own source of inner strength.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 1/19/2008 2:34:10 PM >

(in reply to ferriemistie)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Forced submission - 1/23/2008 4:07:56 PM   
TheLookingGirl


Posts: 162
Joined: 7/26/2007
From: A city near you.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ferriemistie

To begin with He forced me but then i willingly submitted to Him.. (at first it was to just stop the "beatings" but then i actually enjoyed doing it.) Does that make sense


Seems like he could use a bit of forceful submitting. Bastard.

Sorry to hear you discovered you were submissive in such a harsh way. Are you sure that you truely are? Or do you think that you have just come to enjoy the feeling of doing good...rather than bad. You didnt purposfully do things to bring on "punishment" did you? It sounds like you did everything you could to avoid it.

_____________________________

The strongest & most effective force in assuring the long-term maintenance of power is not violence in all the forms deployed by the dominant to control the dominated,but consent in all the forms in which the dominated acquiesce in their own domination.

(in reply to ferriemistie)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Forced submission - 1/23/2008 5:30:18 PM   
Willowmoon


Posts: 227
Joined: 9/25/2007
Status: offline 		With my first 'Master' I was fored, I had no choice in it and did not even know that the 'lifestyle' existed. If I didn't do what he said then I would hurt, if i didn't go to his place directly after school then he would come and get me and hurt me. Yes it was abuse. I was 16 years old and had no idea what was going on. After a while he convinced me that this was bdsm and was how it was suppose to be. Then I met someone who was a lifestyle Master and he after spending a week with him and his slave I saw how wrong my relationship was. To get out of that relationship I had to move interstate, when i tried to just move elsewhere in my city he found me.

Life goes on and I would never allow myself to be in a relationship like that again. I am a slave now but could never be if someone was forcing me in to it.

Willow

(in reply to Honsoku)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Forced submission - 1/23/2008 6:45:57 PM   
pettingdragons


Posts: 421
Joined: 8/16/2005
Status: offline 		we all have bagage and a story....tales of sexual abuse as childern...or physical and mental abuse...all who need this lifestyle one way or another find it and find in it sanity.....

just my 2 cents..
Pamela

_____________________________

pettingdragons
"may the moon bless you with her light.......so you dont pee on your feet"

(in reply to ferriemistie)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Forced submission - 1/23/2008 8:00:36 PM   
SubbieOnWheels


Posts: 590
Joined: 12/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pettingdragons

we all have bagage and a story....tales of sexual abuse as childern...or physical and mental abuse...all who need this lifestyle one way or another find it and find in it sanity.....

just my 2 cents..
Pamela


Pamela, that was purely beautiful!

_____________________________

Bethical
Beat me, strike me, take away my reindeer! I'll never tell! -- Walt Kelly, Pogo Possum
I yam what I yam - Popeye

http://www.myspace.com/bethical_wheels


(in reply to pettingdragons)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Forced submission - 1/24/2008 3:09:05 PM   
pettingdragons


Posts: 421
Joined: 8/16/2005
Status: offline 		Takes a graceful low curtsy.......then trips and falls on my ass....GRIN
hugs Pamela

_____________________________

pettingdragons
"may the moon bless you with her light.......so you dont pee on your feet"

(in reply to SubbieOnWheels)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Forced submission - 1/24/2008 11:16:16 PM   
DisenchantedLife


Posts: 193
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Any coward can beat a woman into submission, to truly tame a woman requires far more.


and that submission will only last so long....

_____________________________

I'm pretty sure I've turned into a bitter bitch with a huge shovel. One of these days I'm going to exchange the shovel for a hoe

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 59
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