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Outsourcing - 1/18/2008 11:48:52 PM   
Asherdelampyr


Posts: 9556
Joined: 11/14/2006
From: The Desert
Status: offline 		***Warning, the opinions contained herein are due to a very pissed off tech, and are not neccisarily shared by anyone***

I HATE OUTSOURCING
I hate that some of my friends have been layed off (a couple right before xmas) because an executive wants to save a few hundred dollars. I hate that I, as a helpdesk agent get calls from people in India, that have been given jobs that some of my friends/family used to support their families, and still havent bothered to learn how to do them properly. I hate that they cant be bothered to listen when they do call. I hate that they feel the need to make up for the distance by yelling through the phone. I hate that because of outsourcing everyones pay is getting screwed in the states, since the execs here know that we have nowhere else to go... I have worked in the tech industry since I was 16, I have an A+, a Network+ and a Security+. I am a student going for my BA in computer science with a 4.0 GPA, and I cant find a job that pays enough that I can support my family in a decent manner. The places left where I live are doing either massive layoffs or paycuts, and all the employees can do is bitch. There is no union for computer techs, and honestly, if there was one im not sure I would join it (just seems like they can get corrupt too easily) The state government doesnt care, as long as they still pay over minimum wage, even though in Utah minimum wage is no even close to livable, especially if you are responsible for the care of UMs. Starting yesterday my pay was cut by 2 dollars an hour as part of a bullshit "incentive" plan, whereby my pay is determined by the number of incidents I resolve, only since I work graveyards the only way to get more than 1 call an hour involves takin a trip to the server room. I could only barely support my family before, now I will have to learn how to live on 3 hours of sleep a day since I will have to get another job in order to pay for our essentials...
/end rant
I dont expect much feedback, especially of the positive kind, but if anyone knows a place where computer techs are payed well for the work they perform, please message me, (especially if it is in the west, easier to x-fer school)


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RE: Outsourcing - 1/19/2008 12:22:21 AM   
petdave


Posts: 2479
Status: offline 		Honestly, it sucks. There's no way for someone in the "west" (U.S./Westen Europe) to compete with people who will work for a bowl of rice a day. 

The only way to reverse the pattern is to look up the home addresses of a few execs and make an example of them. You know what i'm talkin' 'bout. First a few homes burned while they're summering or wintering someplace nicer. Then a few Porsches blown up when the key is turned. Then a few bodies found impaled on their own wrought-iron gates in front of their own multi-million-dollar homes.  Then a few "corporate board retreats" that are found a few days after they were supposed to return, dismembered with chainsaws while their hearts still beat. 

Who dares, wins. Everyone else gets to eat cake.

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RE: Outsourcing - 1/19/2008 12:27:05 AM   
Asherdelampyr


Posts: 9556
Joined: 11/14/2006
From: The Desert
Status: offline 		Reminds me of an old family saying

"There is no problem in life that cant be solved with a rooftop and a belt-fed weapon"


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RE: Outsourcing - 1/19/2008 5:47:12 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		I would honestly recommend switching careers. I'm a software developer and have been since I got out of college in the early 90's. I'm not nearly as secure as I was 5 years ago and things look certain.to get worse. I'm anticipating a true career change relatively soon myself.

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RE: Outsourcing - 1/19/2008 5:49:04 AM   
Asherdelampyr


Posts: 9556
Joined: 11/14/2006
From: The Desert
Status: offline 		I thought about it, but honestly there is nothing else I can do really, I was trained as a carpenter but ive shattered my knees so much that I cant do the work, and im just not any good at anything else

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RE: Outsourcing - 1/19/2008 6:32:07 AM   
SeeksOnlyOne


Posts: 2012
Joined: 5/14/2007
Status: offline 		if you want to get a small giggle about outsourcing, send me an email address.....one of my techs sent me one that is funny as heck.....

he said better to laugh than cry or go shoot folks.....

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RE: Outsourcing - 1/19/2008 7:27:21 AM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		       The book on my nightstand at the moment is "The World is Flat."  Interesting stuff.  I also ran across a piece somewhere about Kenya's efforts to get high speed data capabilities upgraded in that country so they can cash in on outsourced jobs as well.  You need a different career, Asher, or a much more specialized position.

       I'm still transitioning from having a similar sort of experience.  My job couldn't go overseas, but the industry shifted to lower cost immigrant labor.  First they successfully lobbied the state to reverse a labor code ruling.  That cut wages by more than 50%.  How about an $18 an hour pay cut?  Along with losing paid holidays, the pension plan and family health care, of course.  After that came a steady string of new hires that didn't speak English and a shuffling of contract foremen who could communicate with them.

      I left the industry.  I doubt I would have ever taken the pay cut to do it voluntarily, but since my belt had been tightened for me, it's been easy enough.  And since I started at the bottom, there is some hope of getting back to what I prefer earning.  If you are even affected by what the minimum wage is set at, you could likely start doing something else for right around the same money anytime you like. 

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RE: Outsourcing - 1/19/2008 7:33:48 AM   
CalifChick


Posts: 10717
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: California
Status: offline 		Asher, if I could reach through the phone to India and choke the living shit out of the so-called support people or customer service people, I would do it on a daily basis.

My degree is in computer programming, heck, I'm even second generation.  My dad was a computer programmer starting in the early 1960's before anybody even knew what that was.  In his 40's he had to switch to being a hardware guy, because the software work started drying up.  I think he was doing both when he retired a couple of years ago. 

Even though my degree is programming, I've always done other stuff but used my programming knowledge in my jobs.  Now I'm a consultant and biller for mental health providers, and I'm the go-to person for software issues.  Anyway, I deal with insurance companies on a daily basis, and my patience with them has worn so thin so I won't make the call if a patient is in the vicinity.  I don't want them to hear me say, "Look, STEVE, which we know is not your name, but whatever STEVE, you do NOT understand my problem STEVE so you can stop telling me that you do understand my problem STEVE and perhaps you could find a supervisor who CAN understand my problem STEVE and how about you do that right now STEVE and do NOT tell me you have no supervisor because STEVE you and I both know that is a LIE STEVE."

Cali


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RE: Outsourcing - 1/19/2008 7:35:25 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: petdave

Honestly, it sucks. There's no way for someone in the "west" (U.S./Westen Europe) to compete with people who will work for a bowl of rice a day. 



There is a way: innovation supported by the ability to turn an idea into a valued product/service.

In many ways, protectionism is not healthy as it dampens competition. The way forward is to accept a healthy challenge and improve your capacity to meet this challenge through efficiency and focus on innovation to keep ahead of the game.

The problem comes when CEOs take more than their fair share of the pie and squander the profits: providing wealth is reinvested to further growth, then the capability exists to outperform the Chinese and Indians.

We have a different problem over here. We are exceptional at generating ideas that can be turned into a valued service or product; even today, 40% of products taken on board worldwide have their origins in the UK - this is our competitive advantage on the world. Our problem is that we are clueless when it comes to making the product and marketing it: most of our ideas are sold to the Japanese or Americans, and we have to improve in this area; otherwise, we'll struggle to compete. Obviously, with the size of the US and the associated opportunity for capital ventures, you don't have this problem, but a focus on innovation will be useful. Forget competing with the Chinese on cheap products, that day has gone - the wise move would be to look over the horizon at the value added products in 10/20/30 years time, and make sure you get to the market first.

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RE: Outsourcing - 1/19/2008 7:49:37 AM   
SugarMyChurro


Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
Status: offline 		I am really sick of all you whiners in the textile industries. When we offshore menial labor like your former jobs we are simply making room for a higher-level, better paying technology based job - all you have to do is re-educate yourself so that you are suited for the better job we have now created in the new economy.

Can't go to school and become a brain worker? Then just slit your wrists and decrease the surplus population.

Or maybe McDonald's has a job for you...with big, colorful, iconic buttons you can mash.


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RE: Outsourcing - 1/19/2008 8:08:23 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Company A had a loss for the last 5 quarters. 20% of their employees were help desk. The execs did not get any bonuses, and executive positions were cut by 30%. They outsourced 75% of their help desk, with the other 25% handling the more in depth and problematic calls. The company has turned a profit the last 3 quarters. So the company should have gone under, rather than outsource? How many people would be jobless then?

Payroll expense is the largest expense for the majority of employers. Reducing salaries is often cause for lawsuits or work stoppage, so that is not a viable option. Even if so, if you went from 35k to 31k a year, would you still produce the same? or would your morale be hit so hard you would harbor resentment?

I agree that some companies execs take bonuses when they should not, or the bonuses are too high, but I have found that to be the exception. So what is the solution? or is there just going to be more whining and finger pointing?

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RE: Outsourcing - 1/19/2008 8:09:48 AM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		      I have no idea who you are replying to, Sugar.  Textiles???  And the OP is in a technology based field, not manufacturing.

     Change is as inevitable as the tide.  Ride the wave, or get crushed by it.

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RE: Outsourcing - 1/19/2008 8:11:36 AM   
CalifChick


Posts: 10717
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

I am really sick of all you whiners in the textile industries.


Textile industries?  Where did that come from?  Do you know more about Heretic than in his post? Because he said NOTHING about textiles.  Or did you just assume because he said "immigrant labor" that it MUST be textiles??

If that is your assumption, I find that both funny and ironic.

Cali


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RE: Outsourcing - 1/19/2008 8:51:37 AM   
Amaros


Posts: 1363
Joined: 7/25/2005
Status: offline 		Move to India. No, sadly, I'm not being facetious.

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RE: Outsourcing - 1/19/2008 9:08:31 AM   
petdave


Posts: 2479
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Company A had a loss for the last 5 quarters. 20% of their employees were help desk. The execs did not get any bonuses, and executive positions were cut by 30%. They outsourced 75% of their help desk, with the other 25% handling the more in depth and problematic calls. The company has turned a profit the last 3 quarters. So the company should have gone under, rather than outsource? How many people would be jobless then?


Three years ago, we had a US-based call center. Things worked well, but apparently it was too expensive, so the suits moved call center duties to an operation in the Caribbean (we have, or at least had, offices all over the world). Then that looked too expensive, so now the call center is in Central America. Each time the service, both for customers and the remaining staff who are getting work done, has gotten worse. Meanwhile, they're spending truckloads of cash on hardware, facilities, trunk lines, training (oh, wait, if they spent money on training  we might not be having so many problems), probably bribes and armed guards at this point... i can't wait to see what they come up for next year. Click-click-bloody-click stack overflow!

It's all about the race to the bottom.

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RE: Outsourcing - 1/19/2008 9:09:38 AM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline 		We need to redesign our laws to place the incentives on create small private business...the real source of new jobs...why ?

Because:
the Forbes fortune 500 has not created one NET new job in any industrialized western country in 40 years resulting in an estimated 3 - 5 million jobs created...elsewhere.

The Corporation is merely a clever paper device to allow one to privately profit without private liability.

Business community reports: Almost ALL of the increase in profits since 2000 in the US, has been directly as a result of the reduction in wage costs. This just in: 2007 average corporate profits...40%

This we should know: almost half of the US work force is either poorer or at best...no richer than we were in 1977 when measured against inflation.

Kinkroids again: "Your experiment in the corporation is the end of your experiment in democracy." Thomas Jefferson 1803.

Seems TJ knew that the corporation was going to be the last authoritarian institution in a free country. "Do as I say...or starve knave."

We can import cheap labor and export hi-paying jobs BUT we CAN'T re-import the same drugs cheaper or any the same products...too unsafe...unlike safe Chinese drugs and toys hey.

"Free Trade agreements" are NOT free trade agreements at all with many restrictions on textiles, agricultural products and hi-tech products. They are passed on something called a fast-track (congress can vote it up or down but without any amendment...power now expired) so these agreements could do what ? Fast-track was designed specifically so a trade treaty could be negotiated in the dark out of the public eye and without debate...I wonder why ?

People...years ago a great deregulation and omnibus Telecommunications bill was written by the very telecommunication lobbyists is was to serve. They did this for every advantage they could get and also knowing full well the legal ambiguities were questionable and were going right to federal court and be tied up as it turned out for 7 years.

The US is fast becoming simply a wholly owned conglomerate of the international capitalist cabal.

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 1/19/2008 9:11:00 AM >

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RE: Outsourcing - 1/19/2008 10:23:39 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		No we do not need the Nanny state taking care of this.

There needs to be a balance between payroll expense and cost of living. There are many ideas that can correct this, but the only long term one I have seen, is the elimination of the IRS, and moving to a consumer tax base, over an income base. This is not a magic wand though, so I believe that the elimination of liberties given to corporations, as if they were an individual, is needed as well.

As service declines, from outsourcing, there will be a reverse effect eventually. Someone will find a different way to trim cost and keep service up. As in the example I gave, the company kept their more experienced help desk staff and allowed the general RTFM questions to go to the outsourced area. There is not a lot of room to balance service and expense though, so other areas or ways to trim expenses, usually HR expenses, is needed.

Someone once suggested an increase tax to those companies that outsource. When I heard this I thought "so they want the entire company to move out of the country?".

Complicated problem with no simple solutions. I just wished that the amount of effort placed in venting, would be applied to problem solving.


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

We need to redesign our laws to place the incentives on create small private business...the real source of new jobs...why ?



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RE: Outsourcing - 1/19/2008 11:01:51 AM   
SugarMyChurro


Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
Status: offline 		That's hilarious. Another genius thinks that free market capitalism will save us from ourselves.

I think not.

It's not complicated. Corporations exist entirely by our leave because they are legal fictions - fictitious persons created in law. Savagely restrict how they behave and, sure, some might just move out of country. Of course that leaves a vacuum in the marketplace that someone else will surely fill, someone else not so insanely committed to profits that they would cut off their own body to feed their head.

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RE: Outsourcing - 1/19/2008 11:30:37 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Asher, I totally agree!
These "Trade Deals" are not trade deals at all, but "outsourcing" deals disguised as trade deals.
They meet all five criteria of a Treaty which means they'd need a two thirds vote (67 votes) in the senate which they know they'd never get , that's how Clinton pushed "NAFTA" through!
A lot of tech people thought Clinton was great while he was cutting their throats with "Nafta" and "Gatt."
I wonder why our government is "so concerned" about "the consumer"?
Are they really worried that we'll run-out of cheap plastic stuff to buy from overseas?
And last year Bush pushed "Cafta"
through and the very next week Hanes underware in this state moved to Honduras.
One thing is for sure, we need to get O-U-T of these "Free Trade" deals!
Corporations wanted them not the American People!
I don't understand how American companies can move out of the country and yet still expect access to OUR MARKETS!
They want their cake and to eat it too!
It's time to start putting the pressure on our congressmen and senators to get out of  "Nafta", "Cafta" "Gatt" etc.
I heard John McCain on tv yesterday saying "those jobs are never comming back."
Oh yeah?
I wonder just WHO is contributing to HIS campaign? Boy is he full of shit! Don't you love it, people in government trying to dictate to the American People?
Same thing with Hillary Clinton, she uses Silicon Valley like an ATM machine.
You don't amass a $100 million dollar campaign warchest from "small contributers!"
I have $12,000 in a savings account from NOT BUYING cheap plastic junk from China for the last five years.
I haven't been in a Walmart in more that 6 years now.
We can change this shit.
People need to STOP BUYING stuff from these companies that engage in outsourcing and we need to start really applying the pressure on our congressmen and senators to get us out of these rotten, phoney trade deals.
You don't give money to someone who wants to cut your throat financially!
Also if I have any work done around my house (tile, carpet cleaning etc) I always tell the company upfront "U.S. Citizens only" to do the work.
Asher, we can fight these bastards and have fun doing it or we can lay down and do nothing and watch things get worse.
To any company that hires illegal alliens or outsources to foreign countries I have two words; "gasoline" "matches."
And we need to OUTLAW all those "Lobbyists" on "K" street in Washington who make billions of the Taxpayers' dollars influencing our congressmen and senators to pass these rotten, corrupt "Bills."
Their "clients" are the crooked corporations that are involved in this stuff.
DON'T GIVE THESE COMPANIES ANY MONEY!!!

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 1/19/2008 11:40:21 AM >

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RE: Outsourcing - 1/19/2008 11:33:42 AM   
Gwynvyd


Posts: 4949
Status: offline 		Since the .com bust the techies of the US have been screwed blued and tatooed as it were.. I know.. I was one of them.

I went from BellSouth to Sprint, to Comcast.. now I am in Banking. I can not tell you how many folks we have from the Mortgage industry working for us there since the bottom dropped out of the real estate markets.

In any "Call Center" environment the bottom line and numbers ( AHT ~average handle time and the like) are usualy paramount. Screw the customer. The customer is who is paying the bills... if thier thoughts are screw the customer ( ie the bill payer...) what chance do you think the poor employee has at having a say or being cared for?

Many outsource thier jobs ( I love Foamy's Smell Tech support www.illwillpress.com ) never train the poor bastards correctly... or they even outsource thier overflow to biz here in the states.. but dont give them updates, or good training. ( oh the times I have wanted to storm troop the 3rd party vendors with a cattle prod ) If the CEO's werent busy paying themselves and the other execs a big bounus, and plundering the profits maybe.. just maybe they could focus on Customer delight.. and therby making thier empolyees feeling happy and like thier jobs mattered. Morale is a key factor in customer service. Any one in the service industry knows that. If your boss is a prick, you are under paid, and felt like you are taken advantage of.. most likely you are not going to give 110% to each and every one of your customers.. you are going to be a zombie and do the minimum to get in, and out and go the hell home at the end of the day. People who are miserable do bad work. If the execs would pull thier heads out of thier collective asses they would realize it is CHEAPER to keep the jobs here, make the employees happy and profits would increase due to customer loyalty because of good customer service. They think of the immediate short term all the time. This is why companies go under.

It is hard to find a good company or line of business that does not export thier jobs.. has good corporate culture.. cares about not only thier customers but thier empolyees.. pays well, and supports thier employees 100%

Thankfuly I got the hell out of the tech line of business. I am still in a call center enviroment... *sighs* but I have been doing that for so many years it doesnt really matter at this point.

If you email me on the otherside I will give you a refference. We may be hiring near you.

Gwyn

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