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RE: Outsourcing - 1/19/2008 11:45:10 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Gwyn, not only am I "not loyal" to any of these companies now, I am openly *HOSTILE* to them.
As far as I'm concerned they're "The Enemy!"

"GREED" will destroy them.

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to Gwynvyd)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Outsourcing - 1/19/2008 12:28:38 PM   
Gwynvyd


Posts: 4949
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Gwyn, not only am I "not loyal" to any of these companies now, I am openly *HOSTILE* to them.
As far as I'm concerned they're "The Enemy!"

"GREED" will destroy them.


And the reasons why you see them as the enemy are for the reasons I stated.. they are greedy bastards who dont give a shit about the consumer, or thier employees... and of course not the communites in which they live.

Not all biz are run that way. ( as we all know we can not lump everything into one group for good or bad.. it simply doesnt work ) a majority are.. certainly.. but there are a few good companies out there. We as consumers can do some research and find out how a biz is run and decide if we want to do biz with them.. and give them our hard earned money for thier products or services. Or... if we wish to join thier orginization and work for them. I personaly thought it important to look at the HRC Corporate Equality Index before I chose the company I am working with. How the treat people is very important to me. http://www.hrc.org/issues/workplace/ceihome.asp How are they with the enviroment, recycling? Do they do community outreach and good works? Can I donate a % of my paycheck to United Way through them? Do they have diversity in all levels of thier biz? Are they open to feedback from the bottom to the top?

Many see Wal-mart as evil. Or any of the Mega chain stores. I personaly like the lil mom and pop stores when I can find one.. I stick with them. If some one gives me good service I let them know. ( most people only let management know the bad... I think the good is really important too) If I get bad service, I let them know.  I love the street vendor style eateries... you get the best damn food that way. Head out to da hood and get some BBQ... Good God. Much better then the mindless minions at Mc Donalds. Go to a Cuban bakery and pick up a cafe con leche and a pastelito (guayaba y queso) of course! Much better then those damn Criosandwish peices of crap.. http://3guysfrommiami.com/pasteles.html

My family owned and ran small resturants.. I *know* first hand what a difference new customers and repeat customers make to thier livelyhood.

Just my 2 ducats.. keep the change.

Gwyn

_____________________________

Self avowed Geek-Girl~
Come for the boobs, stay for the brains.

Be the kinda woman that when your feet hit the floor in the morning the Devil says "Oh shit, shes awake..."
~ Softandshy's "Shiney"

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Outsourcing - 1/19/2008 1:02:12 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		The thing is, the American PEOPLE are (supposed) to be running our government not financial entities!
We need to "throw the money changers out of the temple" of our government.

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to Gwynvyd)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Outsourcing - 1/19/2008 1:07:15 PM   
sophia37


Posts: 1433
Joined: 2/7/2006
Status: offline 		I hate  that I have to talk to the people who have the jobs that are outsourced. They dont know the product, live in a completely different culture and are very trying to try and understand, due to thier accents. It makes me very upset. I admit.

Im paying these companies all this money for insurance or whatever, and I get this kind of crappy service in return, at not just my own expense with frustration, but having my fellow peoples lose thier jobs over it. hate it hate it hate it. pet peeeve. 

(in reply to Gwynvyd)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Outsourcing - 1/19/2008 1:48:53 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Bottom line is The job belongs to the compnany not the employee.
Proof is simple, if the Employee dies the company hires a new worker to fill that job.
However is the Employer "dies" the job goes away, and the Employee has to find a new Employer who has a job opening.

Companies are not Jobs programs. They are created to make a profit for the investers/ owners.
Now in many cases loyalty towards employees can mean more long term profit, however there is a point where that loyalty means less profit,
and the only people who can make the actual call on when that point is are the owners.


Big problem is people will bitch and moan about a call center being outsourced to India or where ever and the problems that causes. BUT they will not apparently pay the higher cost of maintaining a call center of american IT people who speak the language and want the wages to remain high.

They buy the cheapest products (by and large) with the lowest levels of Customer No Service (by and large).
Corporate Officers have seen this and responded accordingly.



< Message edited by Archer -- 1/19/2008 1:53:03 PM >

(in reply to sophia37)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Outsourcing - 1/19/2008 1:58:14 PM   
Gwynvyd


Posts: 4949
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Bottom line is The job belongs to the compnany not the employee.
Proof is simple, if the Employee dies the company hires a new worker to fill that job.
However is the Employer "dies" the job goes away, and the Employee has to find a new Employer who has a job opening.

Companies are not Jobs programs. They are created to make a profit for the investers/ owners.
Now in many cases loyalty towards employees can mean more long term profit, however there is a point where that loyalty means less profit,
and the only people who can make the actual call on when that point is are the owners.


Big problem is people will bitch and moan about a call center being outsourced to India or where ever and the problems that causes. BUT they will not apparently pay the higher cost of maintaining a call center of american IT people who speak the language and want the wages to remain high.

They buy the cheapest products (by and large) with the lowest levels of Customer No Service (by and large).
Corporate Officers have seen this and responded accordingly.




main reason why Mac computers are not#1.. too expensive people whine. They dont hardly ever bloody break, great tech support, almost no virus, um... can you see a down side?

But they cost a couple hundred more.. waaaaah.

And they are bloody well worth it.

Gwyn


_____________________________

Self avowed Geek-Girl~
Come for the boobs, stay for the brains.

Be the kinda woman that when your feet hit the floor in the morning the Devil says "Oh shit, shes awake..."
~ Softandshy's "Shiney"

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Outsourcing - 1/19/2008 2:17:45 PM   
GreedyTop


Posts: 52100
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Savannah, GA
Status: offline 		Asher.. you've got Cmail... 

(in reply to Gwynvyd)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Outsourcing - 1/19/2008 2:54:30 PM   
Maya2001


Posts: 1656
Joined: 8/22/2007
From: Woodstock ONT,CANADA
Status: offline 		We have only ourselves to blame, we are our own worst enemies and have become greedy,  we want goods but we do not want to pay the price for so instead of buying american made goods we buy the chinese /hongkong , india etc crap,  then the American based companies in order to try and compete have to outsource in order to produce their products for less to compete,  so as consumerists we have only ourselves to blame when we see our neighbours and friends losing their jobs due to outsourcing.  We  see people here bashing GM for the price of the cars compared to the Tata it is a very good example. Are you prepare to work for $5,000 to $6,000 a year like the person in India, are you prepared to live in a apartment sharing with  a couple other families, are you prepared to give up your pizza's beer, donuts and coffee  for a meal of rice, if not quit complaining and buy American made goods so we won't end up slitting out own throats and destroying our way of life,   which the rest world  craves and dreams they could have. Inorder to have  and mantain lifestyle we enjoy comes with costs  but even buying American made  income to cost ratio wise we are still  far better off than those that are producing the cheap junk, if we stop than they will be forced to raise their standards closer to our own to compete with us instead instead of the opposite way around

the Tata is sold in India  it is equivalent to 50% of the worker wage per annum there

the Aveo which is GM's economy car in $10 k base model  the average income of an america is far greater than $20K   so income to price ratio  we have the better deal when it comes to buying a car and with it we are getting more options and a much safer/ higher quality vehicle as part of the package.   we have no reason to complain. 


_____________________________

Lead me not into temptation - I can find the way myself

(in reply to Gwynvyd)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Outsourcing - 1/19/2008 3:29:58 PM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline 		I will buy the most competitive product available....You can bury your head in the sand. The global economy has arrived. Sink or swim folks. Buying American is a concept of a lost time. Just because something is no longer manufactured here does not mean that it is crap.

As other countries economies rise it makes it harder for companies to succesfully outsource. There is a cost that is understood by outsourcing these jobs...It is more than just dollars and cents. I assure you that many jobs that are outsourced to India the people are not making 5 to 6k a year but much, much more. It is a competitive field. So if you don't offer something unique or valued you can be replaced....Nothing new here.

But go on and bitch....Piss in the wind....Or yell at the rain. Things are going to get worse before they get better, but the times they are a changin'. Not to recognize this fact requires some type of delusion.

< Message edited by domiguy -- 1/19/2008 3:31:27 PM >

_____________________________



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Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Outsourcing - 1/19/2008 4:24:36 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

That's hilarious. Another genius thinks that free market capitalism will save us from ourselves.

I think not.


You not think? Yeah I can see that.

quote:


It's not complicated. Corporations exist entirely by our leave because they are legal fictions - fictitious persons created in law. Savagely restrict how they behave and, sure, some might just move out of country. Of course that leaves a vacuum in the marketplace that someone else will surely fill, someone else not so insanely committed to profits that they would cut off their own body to feed their head.


Not some but many would move out of the country. Look at the case of DaimerChrysler and why they decided to not base their headquarters in the US. You are using the extremes of mega corps, which provide less than 20% of the jobs in the US. Most of these tech jobs are from companies that are medium size businesses.

If it is so simple, then how do you plan to reduce expense, so that a company can make a profit and stay in business? Remember that you said this was simple. You see, I see it every day, the profit margins of companies shrinking or them operating in the red. I consult with some of these execs and owners, who are trying to keep their company in this country, keep it operating, and many of them feel a huge responsibility to their employees. Not all are huge corporate leeches, as you wish to portray.

So what would be some of your savage restrictions? This is simple remember.

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Outsourcing - 1/19/2008 4:32:56 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Spot on with this one Archer. Also, if you are a techie or into software, you can always do like I did and become a consultant. There are companies out there that are willing to pay more for good support. Treat your customers as you would like to be treated, and most of the customers will remain loyal customers. Do not be afraid to fire customers that are HMC (High Maintenance Customers), and keep your standards high. I do business software and business consulting, and have been doing so for 5 years. Things slowed some in 2007, so I am learning and specializing in three more business softwares, so that I can expand my client base. I contract out through other companies, and only get paid from billable time. This insures that those companies make money because I do not make money unless they do. One hell of an incentive, and you do not find me surfing the web all day unless there is absolutely nothing to do that day.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Big problem is people will bitch and moan about a call center being outsourced to India or where ever and the problems that causes. BUT they will not apparently pay the higher cost of maintaining a call center of american IT people who speak the language and want the wages to remain high.

They buy the cheapest products (by and large) with the lowest levels of Customer No Service (by and large).
Corporate Officers have seen this and responded accordingly.



_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Outsourcing - 1/19/2008 4:57:41 PM   
Asherdelampyr


Posts: 9556
Joined: 11/14/2006
From: The Desert
Status: offline 		This has got a bit afield of what I was bichin about, lemme see if I can explain...
I work as a helpdesk agent for a large bank. The customer service reps for said bank are located in India. The second level support and most of the resolver groups are in India. My problem stems from when the customer service agents call me and refuse to do anyting that would help me understand them (i.e. spelling phonetically, speaking slowly) and also that they refuse to listen unless you are practically yelling at them. My other problem stems from so called perfomance based incentive programs, because as a 3rd shift agent, I effectivly got a 2 dollar an hour paycut, when I was already just barely payin all my bills. Technically I could make up to 4 dollars an hour more than I was before this program, but since the base is two dollars less, and because they do it by number of incidents created (read, calls taken) Im screwed. I couldn't even switch over to days, since there isnt a position open... And now they are sending some of our team leads over to India to train them in how to do our job as well. As far as switching jobs, sadly in Utah I have one of the only jobs that would pay the bills, the only other industry that would pay me anything decent is construction, which I am physically unable to do (See first post). After I get my degree, I know I can get a great career in this state, my problem is surviving for the next 3 years until that happens.


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Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Outsourcing - 1/19/2008 5:05:46 PM   
JohnSteed1967


Posts: 304
Joined: 5/29/2005
From: Columbia SC
Status: offline 		It is all a numbers game, Management dosn't care, and doesn't need too. They brought in this dickshit yankee from New Yawk with his napolean complex and his Hummer and decided that he knew all and how to improve things.

Now we are flooded by angry customers and people that are having to wait an hour on hold just to talk with someone, he's screw my job and everyday I wonder how much longer I am going to have to listen to some old crone bitch about her cable tv before I actually get a tech support call!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPNmHPjkxdk

(in reply to Gwynvyd)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Outsourcing - 1/19/2008 5:28:42 PM   
Gwynvyd


Posts: 4949
Status: offline 		ick.. that just sucks... Makes me wonder which bank you work for....

I work for a bank too... I dont think it is the same bank... certaintly doesnt sound like the same place I work for.. if it isnt I can give you a referance, and you could get a better job mayhaps? I am a Senior Claims agent currently.

Gwyn

_____________________________

Self avowed Geek-Girl~
Come for the boobs, stay for the brains.

Be the kinda woman that when your feet hit the floor in the morning the Devil says "Oh shit, shes awake..."
~ Softandshy's "Shiney"

(in reply to Asherdelampyr)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Outsourcing - 1/19/2008 5:40:45 PM   
Griswold


Posts: 2739
Joined: 2/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Asherdelampyr

***Warning, the opinions contained herein are due to a very pissed off tech, and are not neccisarily shared by anyone***

I HATE OUTSOURCING
I hate that some of my friends have been layed off (a couple right before xmas) because an executive wants to save a few hundred dollars. I hate that I, as a helpdesk agent get calls from people in India, that have been given jobs that some of my friends/family used to support their families, and still havent bothered to learn how to do them properly. I hate that they cant be bothered to listen when they do call. I hate that they feel the need to make up for the distance by yelling through the phone. I hate that because of outsourcing everyones pay is getting screwed in the states, since the execs here know that we have nowhere else to go... I have worked in the tech industry since I was 16, I have an A+, a Network+ and a Security+. I am a student going for my BA in computer science with a 4.0 GPA, and I cant find a job that pays enough that I can support my family in a decent manner. The places left where I live are doing either massive layoffs or paycuts, and all the employees can do is bitch. There is no union for computer techs, and honestly, if there was one im not sure I would join it (just seems like they can get corrupt too easily) The state government doesnt care, as long as they still pay over minimum wage, even though in Utah minimum wage is no even close to livable, especially if you are responsible for the care of UMs. Starting yesterday my pay was cut by 2 dollars an hour as part of a bullshit "incentive" plan, whereby my pay is determined by the number of incidents I resolve, only since I work graveyards the only way to get more than 1 call an hour involves takin a trip to the server room. I could only barely support my family before, now I will have to learn how to live on 3 hours of sleep a day since I will have to get another job in order to pay for our essentials...
/end rant
I dont expect much feedback, especially of the positive kind, but if anyone knows a place where computer techs are payed well for the work they perform, please message me, (especially if it is in the west, easier to x-fer school)



It's a shitty world...but...hate these things as well:

The fact that your Tupperware costs 30% less than it did in 1974.

That 40% of your Toyota (and 67% of your Chevy) is manufactured elsewhere...and because of that...it's more affordable.

That TV you watch...they haven't made in this country since 1983.

The radio in your car; Singapore.

Obviously everyone knows the end of this long diatribe if I continued...it'd be another 30 sentences about products we eat, drive in, with, wear, etc.....all made, not here.

Here's the solution to outsourcing (but everyone chooses simply to blame manufacturers...when it isn't their fault):

Stop buying products manufactured in foreign lands.

It really is that simple.

American manufacturers own manufacturing facilities for one very simple to understand principle:  To make money.

When they discovered in the 70's, 80's, 90's and now the 00's that Americans consistently chose a $35.00 Hibachi made in Taiwan over an American made $75.00 Webber grill, they made a very logical decision....to find a way to make their Webber sell for $34.00.

That meant a lower cost producer...and that ain't us.

Want to stop outsourcing?

Buy American made products and you'll see jobs flock to the U.S.

It's that simple.

Problem solved.


(in reply to Asherdelampyr)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Outsourcing - 1/19/2008 5:57:19 PM   
Greylynn


Posts: 575
Joined: 11/4/2007
Status: offline 		I've noticed that most of the hospital billing departments that call my company are from....you guessed it....India.  I can usually understand what they say, they can't understand what I am explaining to them though because apparently their training doesn't include learning the state laws or the allowable processing time under the state law.

They all have American names though. 









(in reply to Gwynvyd)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Outsourcing - 1/19/2008 6:29:31 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Greetings Asher,

Actually some of my clients are banking and financial institutions. You must be with a larger bank, as the smaller ones are still adding infrastructure and doing their own support. This is one of the areas that I do evaluation in, and I recommend this over outsourcing.

I am not sure what kind of experience you have, but in the SE US there are several companies that do tech support for various products, and they are hungry for Level 3 Product Specialist and higher. Basically someone with your certs, that can also document defects in the wild, and develop work arounds for them until dev can patch it, if it is given that kind of priority. Most of this is specialized software, and if you want more information on this or other ways to do contract/consulting work, just Cmail me.

I understand your frustration, and I also understand that some corps do it just to increase their profits, but there are still some medium size companies that prefer to keep things here.

Live well,
Orion


quote:

ORIGINAL: Asherdelampyr

This has got a bit afield of what I was bichin about, lemme see if I can explain...
I work as a helpdesk agent for a large bank. The customer service reps for said bank are located in India. The second level support and most of the resolver groups are in India. My problem stems from when the customer service agents call me and refuse to do anyting that would help me understand them (i.e. spelling phonetically, speaking slowly) and also that they refuse to listen unless you are practically yelling at them. My other problem stems from so called perfomance based incentive programs, because as a 3rd shift agent, I effectivly got a 2 dollar an hour paycut, when I was already just barely payin all my bills. Technically I could make up to 4 dollars an hour more than I was before this program, but since the base is two dollars less, and because they do it by number of incidents created (read, calls taken) Im screwed. I couldn't even switch over to days, since there isnt a position open... And now they are sending some of our team leads over to India to train them in how to do our job as well. As far as switching jobs, sadly in Utah I have one of the only jobs that would pay the bills, the only other industry that would pay me anything decent is construction, which I am physically unable to do (See first post). After I get my degree, I know I can get a great career in this state, my problem is surviving for the next 3 years until that happens.



_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to Asherdelampyr)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Outsourcing - 1/19/2008 6:55:40 PM   
subfever


Posts: 2895
Joined: 5/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

DON'T GIVE THESE COMPANIES ANY MONEY!!!


Which, presumably includes not buying their stocks either.

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Outsourcing - 1/19/2008 7:21:55 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Griswold


When they discovered in the 70's, 80's, 90's and now the 00's that Americans consistently chose a $35.00 Hibachi made in Taiwan over an American made $75.00 Webber grill, they made a very logical decision....to find a way to make their Webber sell for $34.00.




        Funny you should bring up grills, Gris.  My wife gave me a very nice Char-Griller for my birthday last year.  American made.  It wasn't cheap.  A few months later we saw something Chinese made and nearly identical in Wal-Mart for almost 50% less, and she started second guessing herself.  We took a look.  The sheet metal was of a thinner guage everywhere.  The wheels were crap.  Where mine has cast iron grill plates, the Chinese had the same old tack welded grid.  Powder coat vs. paint.  Oh yeah.  The Chinese one had some wobbly crank to adjust the distance from the coals that was almost broken already on the floor model.

        Outsourcing is only cheaper if you can continue to produce a good or service people will keep coming back for.  Something people would recommend to friends.  Anybody else not give a single Chinese made toy for Christmas?

     

< Message edited by TheHeretic -- 1/19/2008 7:22:53 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Outsourcing - 1/19/2008 7:29:38 PM   
Asherdelampyr


Posts: 9556
Joined: 11/14/2006
From: The Desert
Status: offline 		I only gave people presents from small companies, just about all of them made in the US

_____________________________

Pirate King,

The nicest man you'll ever bleed for

Posting Help

Vitam Piratae Eligo

The Rainmaker

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 40
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