RE: From the bottom up (Full Version)

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Leatherist -> RE: From the bottom up (1/19/2008 7:45:29 AM)

It's easy. One should just not be so full of themselves that they cannot take the thoughts and feeling of others seriously-or as having validity.

You don't have to get bent over and have "top's disease" beaten out of you. Just be strong and intelligent enough not to let it take root to begin with.



kyraofMists -> RE: From the bottom up (1/19/2008 7:49:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressVnus
Do you think a Dominant should start from the bottom and go through he steps that he/she will someday walk somenone else through?


No; since they are not fulfilled by submitting to someone else's will I do not think they could even come close to appreciating the path I walk on.  I also think that it is rather useless for him to experience some of the sensations in play before inflicting them on me.  No two people feel the same sensation in the same way, so it won't give him any information about how it feels on me. 

Knight's Kyra



mistoferin -> RE: From the bottom up (1/19/2008 7:56:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressVnus
Do you think a Dominant should start from the bottom and go through he steps that he/she will someday walk somenone else through?


No; since they are not fulfilled by submitting to someone else's will I do not think they could even come close to appreciating the path I walk on.  I also think that it is rather useless for him to experience some of the sensations in play before inflicting them on me.  No two people feel the same sensation in the same way, so it won't give him any information about how it feels on me. 

Knight's Kyra


I agree. I think that bottoming is a far cry from submission and the experience would have very little actual value. I also think that everyone experiences submission differently and they certainly process sensations differently. I really just don't see much that could come from it.



MistressVnus -> RE: From the bottom up (1/19/2008 7:59:04 AM)

quote:

No; since they are not fulfilled by submitting to someone else's will I do not think they could even come close to appreciating the path I walk on.  I also think that it is rather useless for him to experience some of the sensations in play before inflicting them on me.  No two people feel the same sensation in the same way, so it won't give him any information about how it feels on me.


Perhaps it might be something he would learn about "himself" during this process.  Something not quite so obvious as just understanding "your" sensations.  Maybe sensations in general regarding that particular toy.   Or, what one's mind might go through when pushed to a limit.  Or, what effects endorphines produce.  Or, that he might like it....etc...etc

Somehow I can't fathom that one would learn "nothing" from it at all.



MadRabbit -> RE: From the bottom up (1/19/2008 8:14:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressVnus

Would you surrender yourself to another Dominant for a w/e of extended play to see how it can be, psychologically?
Curious about other's thoughts and suggestions.



My experiences have shown me that whether it's being on the bottom in pain play, surrendering control in an authority dynamic, or being of service to someone who is teaching you, the experiences are somewhat lacking.

If that "hard wiring" isn't present that drives you towards a certain orientation or activity, then my opinion is that you won't process it the same way as someone who does.

While there is something to take any from the experiences (though I can't say it will be the same thing for everyone), any insight or understanding will most likely be shallow. Having sexual intercourse with a man won't provide any deep psychological insights into the mentality of a homosexual man if your a heterosexual. You simply just don't process things the same way.

After being on the bottom a couple of times, I still have no greater understanding of why these masochists can take all this pain and enjoy/eroticize it, because I am not a masochist! Surrendering to someone else still leaves the same unanswered questions of why my girl does what she does, why she wants what she wants, and why she does the things she does for me.

She has explained it to me and I have enough of a shallow understanding to help me, but as Nietszche (or was it Kierkeggard) said, there is understanding and then there is UNDERSTANDING.

As long as someone doesn't enter into it with the idea that they will achieve UNDERSTANDING if they are just simply not wired to be able to UNDERSTAND, then I say "Go for it" because there will probably be some individual value in it for them.

If you can't hear the music, you can't expect to fully understand it.



mistoferin -> RE: From the bottom up (1/19/2008 8:17:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressVnus
Perhaps it might be something he would learn about "himself" during this process.  Something not quite so obvious as just understanding "your" sensations.  Maybe sensations in general regarding that particular toy.   Or, what one's mind might go through when pushed to a limit.  Or, what effects endorphines produce.  Or, that he might like it....etc...etc

Somehow I can't fathom that one would learn "nothing" from it at all.


I believe you may be correct in that he could possibly learn things about himself. However, I think this is usually done so they can experience what a submissive feels and goes through and I don't believe that is any more possible than it would be for me to understand what it is like to be a dominant by swinging a flogger.



MistressVnus -> RE: From the bottom up (1/19/2008 8:34:08 AM)

quote:

I don't believe that is any more possible than it would be for me to understand what it is like to be a dominant by swinging a flogger.


Just playing devil's advocate here, bear with me.

What if you were to have somone placed in your care, like a new submissive in a poly family, for a day or two.  In this, you wouldn't exactly be the Dominant, but you would have the responsibility of guiding someone along, nonetheless.  You would be given the responsibility for teaching them the ways of the family, from your perspective,  for those couple of days.  Might that not expound on your empathy of what energy it might take for a Dominant to do these things in addition to maybe learning more about your own perspectives?




kyraofMists -> RE: From the bottom up (1/19/2008 8:34:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressVnus
Perhaps it might be something he would learn about "himself" during this process.  Something not quite so obvious as just understanding "your" sensations.  Maybe sensations in general regarding that particular toy.   Or, what one's mind might go through when pushed to a limit.  Or, what effects endorphines produce.  Or, that he might like it....etc...etc

Somehow I can't fathom that one would learn "nothing" from it at all.


I believe you may be correct in that he could possibly learn things about himself. However, I think this is usually done so they can experience what a submissive feels and goes through and I don't believe that is any more possible than it would be for me to understand what it is like to be a dominant by swinging a flogger.


I also do not think that he would learn what the general sensations of a toy are either because sensations are individualistic to people and the sensations he feels may not be the sensations that either Alandra or I feel. 

Some examples, smack Alandra with a cane on her ass and it does not register as pain.  Hit me with a cane with even a fraction of the force he uses on her and I am in incredible pain.  Place as many clothespins as will fit on my breasts and then have me rip them off and I will laugh because I love how it feels.  Put just a few on Alandra and she will be vibrating because of how much it hurts.  Same toys and completely different sensations on us.

Knight's Kyra



MistressVnus -> RE: From the bottom up (1/19/2008 8:36:41 AM)

quote:

After being on the bottom a couple of times,


I would be interested in knowing what you DID get from that experience.  What you were "trying" to achieve by doing so.  And what you actually "did" achieve by doing so.



MadRabbit -> RE: From the bottom up (1/19/2008 8:47:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressVnus

quote:

After being on the bottom a couple of times,


I would be interested in knowing what you DID get from that experience.  What you were "trying" to achieve by doing so.  And what you actually "did" achieve by doing so.



Sure, I would say the most important thing was self understanding.

While I was already self aware enough to have a good idea of who I was and what my desires were, being on the bottom and my reactions to those experiences dispelled any doubts that were nagging me and brought about a complete sense of security in my orientation.

In the beginnings, I think a lot of people experience the same questions of "Am I really dominant?" "Am I really submissive?". Experience brings a greater understanding of where you stand in all this.

Even if you can't come to a deeper understanding of a submissive or dominant, the experiences plus your own empathy and imagination do present some degree of understanding. Even if this is limited in application because of how differently people process things, it still presents a small tool in being able to understand while someone might do something. By luck, that has proved useful and led to some degree of insight in certain things.

Also prior to that, I was bothered a lot when using a paddle or toy, because I had absolutely no association with the sensation I was creating. I felt I was completely blind in using it. Now, I don't because that association does exist (even if people process the sensation in different ways, it's still the same objective smack on the ass).

I don't think in the least that it was a pointless or futile exercise, but I don't agree that it is a requirement or necessary like some people preach. There is plenty of other ways to get from A to B in all the scenarios listed above besides being on the other end.

Edited to Add : I won't say I set out trying to achieve anything, because I wasn't sure what I would achieve since I had heard all the arguments from different people about it. I was just curious and decided to ask some friends to top me so I could find out for myself.



kyraofMists -> RE: From the bottom up (1/19/2008 8:49:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressVnus

quote:

I don't believe that is any more possible than it would be for me to understand what it is like to be a dominant by swinging a flogger.


Just playing devil's advocate here, bear with me.

What if you were to have somone placed in your care, like a new submissive in a poly family, for a day or two.  In this, you wouldn't exactly be the Dominant, but you would have the responsibility of guiding someone along, nonetheless.  You would be given the responsibility for teaching them the ways of the family, from your perspective,  for those couple of days.  Might that not expound on your empathy of what energy it might take for a Dominant to do these things in addition to maybe learning more about your own perspectives?


Again, I do not think that I would learn what it would take for him to be dominant.  Being a dominant person comes as natural as breathing to him.  It is just who he is and taking charge and making decisions is easy and fulfilling.  I have been in the dominant role different times in my life and it is uncomfortable, difficult and irritating as hell.  It isn't who I am. 

The closest that I can come to understanding how it feels for him to be dominant would be for me to be submissive.  In doing that I come to understand what it means to be fulfilled by being exactly who I am and not trying to be something else.

Knight's Kyra



mistoferin -> RE: From the bottom up (1/19/2008 8:57:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressVnus

quote:

I don't believe that is any more possible than it would be for me to understand what it is like to be a dominant by swinging a flogger.


Just playing devil's advocate here, bear with me.

What if you were to have somone placed in your care, like a new submissive in a poly family, for a day or two.  In this, you wouldn't exactly be the Dominant, but you would have the responsibility of guiding someone along, nonetheless.  You would be given the responsibility for teaching them the ways of the family, from your perspective,  for those couple of days.  Might that not expound on your empathy of what energy it might take for a Dominant to do these things in addition to maybe learning more about your own perspectives?




No, I don't think that it would give me any greater understanding of him but I might get a greater understanding of myself. Once, a very long time ago my ex Master allowed me to feel what it would be like to Top. He agreed to bottom to me in a very limited way. What I learned from the experience gave me no understanding of what Topping is like for him, but it did make me understand beyond a shadow of a doubt that Topping is simply not my cup of tea. The experience ended with me nauseous, feeling guilty and in tears. I am fairly certain that he did not process Topping in such a manner with anywhere near the same result. We come from two different orientations and perspectives...roleplaying the opposing one can not give me any understanding of what it is actually like to feel it, live it or be it.



MadRabbit -> RE: From the bottom up (1/19/2008 8:59:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressVnus
Perhaps it might be something he would learn about "himself" during this process.  Something not quite so obvious as just understanding "your" sensations.  Maybe sensations in general regarding that particular toy.   Or, what one's mind might go through when pushed to a limit.  Or, what effects endorphines produce.  Or, that he might like it....etc...etc

Somehow I can't fathom that one would learn "nothing" from it at all.


I believe you may be correct in that he could possibly learn things about himself. However, I think this is usually done so they can experience what a submissive feels and goes through and I don't believe that is any more possible than it would be for me to understand what it is like to be a dominant by swinging a flogger.


I also do not think that he would learn what the general sensations of a toy are either because sensations are individualistic to people and the sensations he feels may not be the sensations that either Alandra or I feel. 

Some examples, smack Alandra with a cane on her ass and it does not register as pain.  Hit me with a cane with even a fraction of the force he uses on her and I am in incredible pain.  Place as many clothespins as will fit on my breasts and then have me rip them off and I will laugh because I love how it feels.  Put just a few on Alandra and she will be vibrating because of how much it hurts.  Same toys and completely different sensations on us.

Knight's Kyra


While I agree that people experience things in different ways, I don't think the degree of difference between experiences is so wide that any experience on the bottom end is futile. I don't think there is such a huge variety of ways to experience a paddle that there is no common denominator and no way for any of us to relate or have some degree of a shared experience.

Yes, you still have to ask questions and come to an understanding of how exactly your partner experiences something, but unless a paddle feels like clamps for one person and clamps feel like a paddle for another, the information provided by experiencing your own toys still has some use.



HalloweenWhite -> RE: From the bottom up (1/19/2008 9:03:14 AM)

I have to admit I could never be someone's submissive in order to learn how to be a better Dominant, it's just not something I can ever imagine doing. I think I'd be radically inefective to quote Tom Waites and end up being thrown out of the Domme's home. I'd much rather be guided by experienced Submissives or slaves but I suppose Im just being lazy!.



MistressVnus -> RE: From the bottom up (1/19/2008 9:04:04 AM)

quote:

The experience ended with me nauseous, feeling guilty and in tears


Ack!!  I can see how that was awful for you and am sorry it was so unpleasant for you.
Just curious. ....Did it have any impact on how you viewed your Master?
Were the tears all for your own discomfort or was part of it about removing your Master from his role, as you see him in your mind?



DesFIP -> RE: From the bottom up (1/19/2008 9:07:51 AM)

It would work only for technical things. It wouldn't help a dominant understand a submissive's feelings, simply because the dominant would never share those feelings. But there are other ways to learn how to do things safely nowadays such as workshops.

Gay leathermen couldn't rent out a hotel to host s & m cons. They couldn't legally hold a rope seminar or one on florentine flogging. They were liable to be arrested simply for holding hands in an all male bar. Those days are long gone thankfully and the things they had to do surreptitiously to learn are no longer necessary as we don't have their constraints.



AFlyInYourWeb -> RE: From the bottom up (1/19/2008 9:09:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressVnus

We have very similar thoughts on this.
And some of mine are based on my military training, too, as well as from having to take classes for degrees that I didn't necessarily want to take or have an interest in.
It's funny what we can find out about ourselves when we have to do things we didn't necessarily see a point in.


I see military training as a "plus" in a Dominant as well. [:)]

It isn't an idle compliment.  People who have been in the Armed Forces have usually been in positions of being both subordinate and in command.  One certainly learns how to stretch one's own limits, and, when in command, how to help others stretch their limits.  

I could go on, but the idea probably deserves a seperate thread. 



MistressVnus -> RE: From the bottom up (1/19/2008 9:18:02 AM)

Wow...we've had similar experiences.

I, too, in the beginning had a bit of a penchant, I thought, for for both worlds.
What I have learned about myself is that although I can appreciate bottoming (or sensation play, if you will), I am in no way, shape, or form, submissive.   And, it rather had a reverse afftect on me.  In the beginning I identified as a swtich and really thought that's what I was.  After having gone through a couple of initial, submissive, experiences, I can't even "entertain" the idea in my head anymore.  I have no taste for it whatsoever.  Nada. Nil. Zilch.  I have even lost any cravings I used to have for a good spanking now and then.  Not sure why that all is but the experience definately changed my course with a stronger conviction of who I am.

And, like you, I do find that experiencing all the different sensations from different toys has helped me immensely as far as understanding the difference between the light, very stingy feel of a cane vs. the harder, more thumping PLUS stinging sensation of a paddle.    Just an example

And, when learning something new, I still like to see for myself.  For example, when learning to body cast, I had someone cast me.  Man, I had NO CLUE, how intense that was.  And, when I was learning about inverted suspension, I had someone string me up.  This helped immensely, as well, as I realized that the blood won't all rush to your head and make you pass out.  That eventually, your body compensates for this.  It  kind of feels like it at first, then dissapates.
Just those types of things have helped me to realize that sometimes, I get more out of trying it myself than what others' might have instructed.  That often, there are observations I, myself, make that add on to what someone has already imparted.



Elorin -> RE: From the bottom up (1/19/2008 9:22:54 AM)

I believe that it is at least partially beneficial to a Top to feel a sensation they are going to be giving, but I don't think it helps someone who is hardwired submissive or Dominant to be forced into the other role to attempt to "learn" more about the other side of things. I think those who are intrinsically switch definitely benefit on both submissive and dominant sides by having had both roles, but the empathy and compassion they pick up through experience of both roles isn't unique to them. Some sub and dom types comprehend all that is necessary to be good at their roles without needing to take on other roles.

~Ms. Elorin



Lashra -> RE: From the bottom up (1/19/2008 9:25:35 AM)

No I have never been submissive it isn't in my nature, I started out as a Dominant and that is who I am to my core.
However my current submissive was a gorean Master who had been told that because he was male he had to be Dominant, as we all know that is truly not the case for every male. But he always knew deep inside that it was just a mask he was wearing and when he met me he felt safe to take it off and be who he truly is. I think there are a few submissives/slaves out there who do find out eventually that it is not their true nature and some eventually go to the other end of the whip.

~Lashra



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