RE: Yob culture. (Full Version)

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seeksfemslave -> RE: Yob culture. (1/23/2008 2:55:52 AM)

quote:

LadyE
..................onto the lowest socio-economic classes - which is where most of the ASBO kids are from, but then what do we expect of them when we threw their parents away and never showed any aspiration for them?
This statement is untrue, I know it is untrue, I have posted numerous times that it is untrue,nobody listens so I now post a "sauce" that demonstrates that it is untrue.
http://www.bristol.ac.uk/cmpo/workingpapers/wp119.pdf

quote:

Since coming into office in 1997, the Labour government has introduced extensivereforms to welfare and labour market policies, and the real incomes of low- income familieswith children have risen sharply. Analyses by Sefton and Sutherland (2004) show that thegains have been heavily focused on the bottom three deciles, with the change for the poorest decile representing an increase in income of close to 25% in real terms
.

What is true is that there was an increase in poverty thru' the 80s-90s which was across the social spectrum and IMO was inevitable due to attempts to revitalise a failing top down state focussed economy. As certain sections of society have had more financial aid directed to them their behaviour has not improved and for many it has got worse.

Remember also that poverty today is considered to be relative so if the state provides housing, which they still do and exemption from most taxes but you havent say more that one television ,you are considered poor

I dont even mention the increases in spending on secondary education, which has been enormous and produced...not a lot.
Also lets not forget the increases allocated to the NHS, tho' where that has been spent, by the quango minded executives I dread to think.
adding: employing more quango minded executives and bean counters of all kinds if truth be known. Dont forget stress councillers, 5 apples a day health co ordinaters etc etc etc groan groan groan etc etc  groan groan



LadyEllen -> RE: Yob culture. (1/23/2008 3:11:50 AM)

Such changes in the welfare system may have improved incomes Seeks - but this is not about money as I see it, its about the aspiration and opportunity to build a life for oneself, its about that sense of achievement that comes from doing a day's work and getting a reasonable day's pay, its about the development of the social skills and self discipline that comes from being included in the wider society. All soft psychological things I appreciate, but as I see it this is where the problem is.

When we develop an economy and a society in which there are simply not enough reasonable jobs for those less able to do well academically, it is irrelevant that we spend more on education. No one is foolish enough to work all week for less income than could be obtained from welfare payments. And we now have two generations and a third coming along who have not known any other way of life than to not bother; not bother in school, not bother in life - and it is this which has developed our yob culture from being a much smaller minority to a more significant one. Rejected from society, they reject society.

If we as a country looked after ourselves and our own a little better - and here I'm talking specifically about ensuring there is a life to be made that hasnt been exported to China et al, then I believe we should not have such a problem. I have huge sympathy for those in poverty around the world, but we dont solve that problem by rendering ourselves poorer as a society.

E



seeksfemslave -> RE: Yob culture. (1/23/2008 3:23:32 AM)

LadyE: you can build say a library oddly enough some where I live financed by grants from the Andrew Carnegie foundation, but you cant make a "smart alec" use it.

I agree totally with your point about low skilled jobs having diminished in number, actually as I type this I just wonder if it is true. Is it  that the number of low skilled jobs suitable for men who consider themselves "tuff guys" has reduced ?
ie labourer in a factory = OK. Working behind a bar or a fast food shop = NOT OK .
adding: IMO many jobs taken by the academic types are basically "welfare for the educated"  . I've posted that before ....numerous time lol



LadyEllen -> RE: Yob culture. (1/23/2008 3:58:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

I agree totally with your point about low skilled jobs having diminished in number, actually as I type this I just wonder if it is true. Is it  that the number of low skilled jobs suitable for men who consider themselves "tuff guys" has reduced ?
ie labourer in a factory = OK. Working behind a bar or a fast food shop = NOT OK .


could be Seeks, could be. Although I'd say the opportunity for being a "tuff guy" behind a bar is good, going by the pubs round here!

I think the problem is that the welfare system has become so elaborate and so replete with disincentives to doing anything other than claim, compared to the wages available in unskilled and low skilled work. This is not to say the welfare system should be abolished or curtailed - but it certainly needs sorting out so that doing something for onesself is an advantage, not a disadvantage.

And the other side is that we need to look into the true cost of outsourcing - by which I mean the net effect on society, which whilst I believe it actually costs us a fortune in terms of money, is far more strongly adverse in terms of psychology for those shut out of the economy and reflects in general attitudes and behaviour for those shut out and for those in work.

For those shut out, why would they behave civilly in a society which shuts them out? For those in work I hear more and more the attitude that one should have no commitment whatever to one's work or employer, because they could outsource one at the drop of a hat. Its a "fuck 'em all" society we have built, and the growth in yob culture is one symptom of it.

E



Sanity -> RE: Yob culture. (1/23/2008 5:34:16 AM)

You spoke of making national service "compulsory" in the same post that you said you're against using the birch, and I would assume that you meant amy form of force.

Forced, compulsory... Same thing, really.

So again, how would you force these Yobs to go into national service without using force. How would you compel them. It seems a bit unrealistic to me.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

That wasn't the original statement.
You spoke about force.
No one else did.
 
the.dark.



NorthernGent -> RE: Yob culture. (1/23/2008 11:27:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent


I think we worked out in the 13th century that a man has a right to enter the employment of his choice: rather than your choice.


Nothing like tradition eh NG [:D] 


Yeah, in the same way breathing air is a tradition. 



NorthernGent -> RE: Yob culture. (1/23/2008 11:30:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

Do you have a standing army, navy, air force, etc?
 
Regards,
 
Vendaval



Yeah, we have 3 soldiers, a canoe and a zeppelin.

Britain has never had a large standing army; in fact, we've always been suspicious of the agents of authority, which is why the police uniform was originally designed to look like civilian clothing.



RCdc -> RE: Yob culture. (1/23/2008 11:33:16 AM)

I did not say national service Sanity.
Ask again when you read correctly.
 
the.dark.



NorthernGent -> RE: Yob culture. (1/23/2008 11:34:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

And that is one of the problems we have, in that social benefits offer a far better form of "employment" than the jobs available to a significant proportion, and given the choice, no one would be so foolish as to work all week for less income than one could obtain from doing nothing.



I'd quite like to delve into your significant proportion comment, as it underpins your point of view.

Can you put some meat on the bones of this comment? What is a significant proportion, and from where have you gleaned such figures?



RCdc -> RE: Yob culture. (1/23/2008 11:40:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

And that is one of the problems we have, in that social benefits offer a far better form of "employment" than the jobs available to a significant proportion, and given the choice, no one would be so foolish as to work all week for less income than one could obtain from doing nothing.



I'd quite like to delve into your significant proportion comment, as it underpins your point of view.

Can you put some meat on the bones of this comment? What is a significant proportion, and from where have you gleaned such figures?


I am always surprised by people who claim that living on benefits is 'easy', and usually claimed by people who have never had to survive on any kind of state benefit for any signofocant amount of time.  Having done so for a short time, I can verify, it isn't easy at all.
 
the.dark.



domiguy -> RE: Yob culture. (1/23/2008 11:46:45 AM)

I am so looking forward to "growing and thinking" old. It seems like it must be fun.



Aneirin -> RE: Yob culture. (1/23/2008 12:00:21 PM)

You are right .d. Living on benefits is not the soft touch the majority think it is. The basics of living, food,fuel and travel, all have risen in price, benefits do not go very far and lead people into debt and there problems with depression. Be honest with yourself, could you as an individual live, that meaning food,bills,travel, the necessities, live on £59 per week?

Then there is the consistent problem of problems with the payments, them not arriving when they should, or being of an incorrect amount and for those receiving job seekers allowance, the bi weekly humiliation of the job centre, where the staff try to foist you into any job, not the job you want. If they are dissatisfied with your performance on looking for the job you want, they stop your benefit entitlements.

True, if someone is not actively seeking work in their reality, defrauding the system, they should not be entitled to financial help, but if the jobs are not there to start with, or it is not the job you would consider liking to do, can you blame them.

As everyone knows, if you are not happy in your work, that leads to poor performance and illness something which can become an even bigger burden on society.

Oh yes, those on benefits get financial help to paying their housing needs, but this payment is never the full amount and can be upto a third less than is required, thus requiring the claimant to find the remainder. Which is all well and good, but that remainder often comes out of the £59 per week which leaves not a lot to live on.

No, not by a long shot is a life on the scrounge an easy option, most, want work, work that pays a reasonable amount, so they can perhaps go on one holiday per year, maybe run an old car, and basically be what society expects everyone to be, a member of society, not an outcast to be blamed for everything.



seeksfemslave -> RE: Yob culture. (1/23/2008 12:20:42 PM)

There's benefits and there's benefits.
A single unemployed male probably wont get much.
A 15 year old pregnant girl or a family with several children will get everything.

Dont make me look for a "sauce" on welfare expenditure in the UK. I will if I have to.
Welfare should be a safety net not a life style choice.
Remember that Doncaster woman on Wife Swap who declared her income 30k it was.
Caused a national outcry at the time.

Re the canoe and zepplin that make up our armed forces dont forget the 65 Field Marshalls and 5 gattling guns 75 Admirals with the said canoe and 85 Air Force Marshalls with a Focke Wolf based at Liverpool airport. Ready at a moments notice it is
The Zepplin? well nobody has been able to get it down from the launching mast after a failed launch, our best brains are working on that..

Funnily enough off the top of my head we spend as much on "defence" as a percentage of GDP as does the US.



RCdc -> RE: Yob culture. (1/23/2008 12:25:48 PM)

How about a 35 year old woman with two children ?
Because if can promise, it was not easy.  And we got virtually nothing.  And it was a terrible struggle where I sometimes ate nothing for days just so my children could.  And you know what?  I am not a stupid person.  I worked for the benefits agency as well a few years back, so I knew the way the system works. 
So if you really want to fall for the old mediahype view of benefits and how easy it is - go ahead.
Doesn't mean you are right.
 
the.dark.



Aneirin -> RE: Yob culture. (1/23/2008 12:40:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

There's benefits and there's benefits.
A single unemployed male probably wont get much.
A 15 year old pregnant girl or a family with several children will get everything.

Dont make me look for a "sauce" on welfare expenditure in the UK. I will if I have to.
Welfare should be a safety net not a life style choice.
Remember that Doncaster woman on Wife Swap who declared her income 30k it was.
Caused a national outcry at the time.






There will always be exceptions, but not those the topic is about are yobs, and the surmise that they could be unemployed 'scoungers'.

If that is so, as you say, a single unemployed male probably won't get much, is it not possible that the yobs might very well be dissatisfied with life in general, with their basic struggle to even survive in a very critical society where they may see themselves as the butt of society's ills.

But I think the yobs are not the unemployed, as how else will they afford to become drunk and disorderly. They are also largely well dressed in their peculiar fashion sense and all sport the latest camera phones and seemingly the funds to run them. They have money, whether it be honestly earned or not, but they are largely not the unemployed.



Sanity -> RE: Yob culture. (1/23/2008 2:33:13 PM)

Yes you did.

Right here.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

I did not say national service Sanity.
Ask again when you read correctly.
 
the.dark.



LadyEllen -> RE: Yob culture. (1/23/2008 2:51:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

And that is one of the problems we have, in that social benefits offer a far better form of "employment" than the jobs available to a significant proportion, and given the choice, no one would be so foolish as to work all week for less income than one could obtain from doing nothing.



I'd quite like to delve into your significant proportion comment, as it underpins your point of view.

Can you put some meat on the bones of this comment? What is a significant proportion, and from where have you gleaned such figures?


I am always surprised by people who claim that living on benefits is 'easy', and usually claimed by people who have never had to survive on any kind of state benefit for any signofocant amount of time.  Having done so for a short time, I can verify, it isn't easy at all.
 
the.dark.

 
Not quite sure where I said that it was easy to live on benefits? I merely pointed out that there is a lack of suitable low skilled and unskilled jobs paying a higher rate than is possible to receive on benefits. If this were not so, then we would not have vast imports of Poles et al here doing these jobs, as our indigenous unemployed would be pleased to take them? This is a criticism of the economy and society we have built, not a criticism of the unemployed, who as I pointed out, have the sense to realise where theyre best off.
 
And no NG, I dont have figures on "significant proportion", but if you were to live in an area like this and others in this town like it, and areas like it in every town and city across the country, you would understand. In my little neighbourhood, we have 25% unemployment, which is significant in my book - but of course this is obscured when taken across the town and the country as a whole, because areas like this are where the rejects from the current economy end up concentrated. Just because you cant see it, doesnt mean its not there, and for me at least, I find it something worth discussing with a view to a resolution - because its simply unacceptable to have pockets like this one where so many lives, so much potential is wasted, and so much misery is occasioned thereby to the inhabitants and to the wider population by virtue of the rejection of society which is the natural response to having been rejected by society.
 
The alternative view is to hold that such unemployed people are lazy and useless, and I'm sure you wouldnt go for that? Some of them perhaps are lazy - but that is the life they have been trained for by our systems - but I refuse to believe anyone is useless; it is just that their path in life has been closed down to them in our economy and for this reason we have no use for them, and neither will we have use for them until we understand that we are all in this together and that looking after our weakest is what will make us strong.
 
But to get to that place we have to first understand that we are not all equally blessed with the same abilities - anathema I realise, but equitable is not the same as equal and equitable is where we need to be. Only then will we realise that not everyone is cut out for academia and an office job in the service economy and get things together so that everyone has a future according to their personal attributes, capacities and interests - and produce an economy and a society which provides for this.
 
Otherwise we will continue down the path of winner takes all and the devil take the hindmost, the "fuck 'em all" society, and breed more and more generations of people, in work and out of work, who simply dont give a monkey's, and thus develop our yob culture even further.

E



seeksfemslave -> RE: Yob culture. (1/23/2008 2:53:10 PM)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/actionnetwork/A3539531
quote:


More than 830,000 lone parents live on welfare benefits, claiming income support, child allowances and housing benefit costing a total of £14 billion a year

£14*10^9 divided by 830*10^3 = £16867
£324 per week.
I know you wont have received that in cash but that is the cost to the taxpayer of supporting single mothers.
You believe you received very little !!!!





NorthernGent -> RE: Yob culture. (1/23/2008 3:04:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

And no NG, I dont have figures on "significant proportion",
 

 
Same old then , eh.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

but if you were to live in an area like this and others in this town like it, and areas like it in every town and city across the country, you would understand. In my little neighbourhood, we have 25% unemployment, which is significant in my book - but of course this is obscured when taken across the town and the country as a whole, because areas like this are where the rejects from the current economy end up concentrated.



'Problem is, Ellen, you have no idea where I live. I live on the border of Salford and Manchester - just down the road from a place called Lower Broughton. If you're ever up this way, pop down to Lower Broughton (or anywhere else in Salford and many parts of Manchester) and then come back and tell me about your super deprived area that supports your claim to be the bible of all things deprived. Now, I could be wrong here, as I don't take that much notice of crime tables, but I have a feeling that, in a recent crime survey, Manchester was deemed to be the most dangerous place in the country (armed robbery, street violence etc).

Furthermore, look up a place called Easington Council - you'll find it's the most deprived area in England with the highest rate of unemployment in the country - I lived there for the first 18 years of my life.

Of course, Stourbridge makes Belfast look like Buckingham Palace. 'Tell you what, I'm going to look up this Stourbridge place and get back to you.



LadyEllen -> RE: Yob culture. (1/23/2008 3:07:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

There will always be exceptions, but not those the topic is about are yobs, and the surmise that they could be unemployed 'scoungers'.

If that is so, as you say, a single unemployed male probably won't get much, is it not possible that the yobs might very well be dissatisfied with life in general, with their basic struggle to even survive in a very critical society where they may see themselves as the butt of society's ills.

But I think the yobs are not the unemployed, as how else will they afford to become drunk and disorderly. They are also largely well dressed in their peculiar fashion sense and all sport the latest camera phones and seemingly the funds to run them. They have money, whether it be honestly earned or not, but they are largely not the unemployed.



Aneirin my dear - are you really so naive as to believe that the unemployed live solely on welfare benefits, when it has already been pointed out that it is difficult to even survive on them?

For example, a friend (not me, honest), might be supplying them the duty free cigarettes and rolling tobacco, some of which they use and some of which they sell on at a small profit. Not me again (honest), might be providing a little on the side work from time to time, cash in hand.

Thing is, those of us who have a little more - and especially those amongst the unemployed who have a little more, tend to share the wealth as we have it from time to time with our less fortunate friends and acquaintances. It comes back round, eventually, usually in kind. But not me HMRC, not me.

And those who might be described as yobs do the same amongst one another and likely get the same extra help from further up the socio-economic scale, according to their particular association groups, I'll venture.

But I will accept that yobs are not exclusively derived from the unemployed. Rather yobs are drawn from a wider spectrum of the socio-economic scale, yet still confined to the lower skilled and unskilled groups I would surmise, who have little to lose from rejecting a society where in work or not, they are at the bottom, rejected from the race the rest of us are frenziedly running.

E



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