RE: Robert E. Lee Day (Full Version)

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KatyLied -> RE: Robert E. Lee Day (1/20/2008 6:14:27 PM)

From the link I posted:
Neither Robert E. Lee, nor his wife, as title holder, ever attempted to publicly recover control of Arlington House  <snip> Custis Lee, as eldest son of Gen. and Mrs. Lee, claimed that the land had been illegally confiscated and that, according to his grandfather's will, he was the legal owner. In December 1882, the U.S. Supreme Court, in a 5-4 decision, returned the property to Custis Lee, stating that it had been confiscated without due process On March 3, 1883, the Congress purchased the property from Lee for $150,000. 




tigerstyle -> RE: Robert E. Lee Day (1/20/2008 6:16:38 PM)

An officer and a gentleman. A dom if you will.




AquaticSub -> RE: Robert E. Lee Day (1/20/2008 6:17:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

From the link I posted:
Neither Robert E. Lee, nor his wife, as title holder, ever attempted to publicly recover control of Arlington House  <snip> Custis Lee, as eldest son of Gen. and Mrs. Lee, claimed that the land had been illegally confiscated and that, according to his grandfather's will, he was the legal owner. In December 1882, the U.S. Supreme Court, in a 5-4 decision, returned the property to Custis Lee, stating that it had been confiscated without due process On March 3, 1883, the Congress purchased the property from Lee for $150,000. 


Now that's interesting and nice to know.




MissHarlet -> RE: Robert E. Lee Day (1/20/2008 6:23:48 PM)

Robert E Lee was the epitomy of a Southern Gentleman .. and no Im not condoneing slavery by saying that .. as it has been pointed out.. he freed his slaves at the onset of the war .... he was a product of his time and behaved with integrity and honor in my opinion.

I also take nothing away from MLK .. he was a great man of his time .. and without him the world would have been a far worse place for many. ...

There is not reason not to celebrate both of these men.




thompsonx -> RE: Robert E. Lee Day (1/20/2008 7:07:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

Curious, I know that he was human.  Like I said. you should readup on him.  He freed all his slaves upon the outbreak of the war. Grant didn't do that.  He was a man of his time, and I don't celebrate the wrong headed institution of slavery.  I don't support the history of the South in many areas.  The Jim Crowe laws and the treatment towards blacks is reprehensible.  I have relatives that were in the KKK, and I think they realize how wrong they were. 

Robert E. Lee was a victim of his time.  He was very patriotic and he discouraged succession.  But like most people at that time, he was loyal to his home state first and foremost.  He served with dignity, and he was a hell of a man.

slaveboyforyou:
Grant was anti slavery all of his life.  He only owned one slave and that was because he inherited him from his father in law.  Grant freed William Jones as soon as he got him.
thompson




MadameTakhisis -> RE: Robert E. Lee Day (1/21/2008 5:11:02 PM)

I guess Bush will be termed a southern gentleman in history as well. I find only the most racist states celebrate Lee. I am glad most states became aware of the harm and hatred it causes on a subliminal level perpetuating the support of tyranny. We have a long way to go or we are already inside of nowhere! I think it will be a supporter of  Lee not King looking  forward to taking a shot at the next pres, who may be black or female.Could you imagine a revolution today to save the right for bdsm? What a sad fight that would be! Right now to be a slave or a Dom is a choice then it was not. Lee is a stain in our history, he had a chance to be a man for all, his choice was to man up for the few! I cant imagine honoring some one so short sighted then or now! Like I said I guess Bush will be honared as a Southern Gentelman and an American hero in history as well  since Lee has set bar. 




tigerlilly34 -> RE: Robert E. Lee Day (1/21/2008 5:29:32 PM)

maybe if society was a little less pc in some respects we would be better off as a whole.




slaveboyforyou -> RE: Robert E. Lee Day (1/21/2008 5:49:20 PM)

quote:

I guess Bush will be termed a southern gentleman in history as well. I find only the most racist states celebrate Lee. I am glad most states became aware of the harm and hatred it causes on a subliminal level perpetuating the support of tyranny. We have a long way to go or we are already inside of nowhere! I think it will be a supporter of  Lee not King looking  forward to taking a shot at the next pres, who may be black or female.Could you imagine a revolution today to save the right for bdsm? What a sad fight that would be! Right now to be a slave or a Dom is a choice then it was not. Lee is a stain in our history, he had a chance to be a man for all, his choice was to man up for the few! I cant imagine honoring some one so short sighted then or now! Like I said I guess Bush will be honared as a Southern Gentelman and an American hero in history as well  since Lee has set bar. 


You should do a little more reading about American History.  People in 1861 did not identify themselves as Americans for the most part.  People took a lot of pride in their home states, and that is how they identified themselves.  There was no television or radio, and people rarely traveled out of their home counties much less their home state.  Most people couldn't read, so they got all their news from the few people in their communities that could read the newspaper.  That would have generally been the local school teacher or preacher. 

The War between the States was not about slavery, and if you believe that you need to read up on it.  Northern industrialists profited heavily from slavery, as did large plantation owners in the South.  However, they were the extreme minority.  The overwhelming majority of people in the South did not own slaves, and didn't care if it existed or not.  They were too concerned about feeding their families.  They fought in the war to protect their communities, and that is why Lee sided with the South.  All of his family and friends lived in Virginia, and he felt it was necessary to defend his home. 

You bring up tyranny, but I see that you failed to mention the tyranny brought about by Lincoln.  He suspended Habeus Corpus, and he allowed the wealthy to buy their way out of the draft.  The largest, most deadly race riot happened in New York City because of the draft.  Racism was prevalent everywhere, not just the South.  You call the states that celebrate his birthday the most racist, but you live in a state that doesn't have a very large African American population.  My county alone is close to 30% African American.  Whites and blacks live next to each other, and we go to school together.  I doubt that is the case where you live. 




thompsonx -> RE: Robert E. Lee Day (1/21/2008 6:38:39 PM)

slaveboyforyou:
If the war between the states was not fought over slavery what was it fought about?
thompson




AquaticSub -> RE: Robert E. Lee Day (1/21/2008 6:43:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

slaveboyforyou:
If the war between the states was not fought over slavery what was it fought about?
thompson


A lot of stuff. It was basically over state's rights with one particular right being to own slaves. My problem with the idea that the Civil War was completely about slavery is that Lincoln bluntly said that if he could end the war by freeing the slaves he would do that, and if he could end the war by not freeing the slaves he would do that. He made the war about slavery when he figured out it was the best tactic for ending the war.




Phin -> RE: Robert E. Lee Day (1/21/2008 6:57:43 PM)

The Emancipation Proclomation witch was drafted after the the Confederate States sucseded. That document http://www.nps.gov/ncro/anti/emancipation.html stated "all persons held as slaves within any State or designated part of a State, the people whereof shall then be in rebellion against the United States, shall be then, thenceforward, and forever free" quick translation only slaves in the Cofederate States would be free. Any state that rejoined the Union could keep the slaves.




subexploring -> RE: Robert E. Lee Day (1/21/2008 7:03:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

slaveboyforyou:
If the war between the states was not fought over slavery what was it fought about?
thompson


A lot of stuff. It was basically over state's rights with one particular right being to own slaves. My problem with the idea that the Civil War was completely about slavery is that Lincoln bluntly said that if he could end the war by freeing the slaves he would do that, and if he could end the war by not freeing the slaves he would do that. He made the war about slavery when he figured out it was the best tactic for ending the war.


No, the Civil War was definitely fought over slavery. What confuses people is that it was fought over the *territorial expansion* of slavery, not the existence of slavery in the South. Lincoln and the Republicans agreed that under the Constitution, slavery was legally permissible in states where it already existed. (This distinguishes them from the abolitionists, who did want to get rid of it -- Lincoln was not an abolitionist). But Lincoln wanted to stop the extension of slavery to any new states or territories. Everyone, including the South, believed that if slavery did not expand -- if it was kept in the old South -- it would eventually die out over time. That's especially true since if new states entering the Union did not have slavery, then free states would eventually get a Senate majority. The issue of the expansion of slavery was the key issue that sparked secession.

Lincoln is completely consistent and crystal clear in his position on this issue from 1850 on. Here he is in the first Inauguaral Address, before the start of the Civil War, when he was pleaded for the South to stay in the Union:

"One section of our country believes slavery is right and ought to be extended, while the other believes it is wrong and ought not to be extended. This is the only substantial dispute."

He says it again in more detail in the Second Inauguaral, in 1864:

"One-eighth of the whole population were colored slaves, not distributed generally over the Union, but localized in the southern part of it. These slaves constituted a peculiar and powerful interest. All knew that this interest was somehow the cause of the war. To strengthen, perpetuate, and extend this interest was the object for which the insurgents would rend the Union even by war, while the Government claimed no right to do more than to restrict the territorial enlargement of it."

Note: restrict the territorial enlargement, not eliminate. But also note that the interest of slavery is still the cause of the war.

During the war, of course, Lincoln made a series of decisions to undertake abolition in the southern states which had seceded. He believed that this would weaken the Confederacy, and also that by seceding the Confederate states had forfeited their Constitutional protections that permitted the ownership of slaves.




thompsonx -> RE: Robert E. Lee Day (1/21/2008 7:05:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

slaveboyforyou:
If the war between the states was not fought over slavery what was it fought about?
thompson


A lot of stuff. It was basically over state's rights with one particular right being to own slaves. My problem with the idea that the Civil War was completely about slavery is that Lincoln bluntly said that if he could end the war by freeing the slaves he would do that, and if he could end the war by not freeing the slaves he would do that. He made the war about slavery when he figured out it was the best tactic for ending the war.

AquaticSub:
Which other stuff besides the states right to have slavery?
thompson




AquaticSub -> RE: Robert E. Lee Day (1/21/2008 7:07:52 PM)

As you said, the problem was that people wanted to own slaves in new areas of the country, hence my opinion that is was the right to own slaves was the cause of the war. If a war were started by the right to own cars in new areas of the country, I'd call it an issue of rights not a war over cars.

Which isn't to say that I approve of slavery, I'm glad it ended - just that the war wasn't about "Free the slaves!" as people like to believe.




subexploring -> RE: Robert E. Lee Day (1/21/2008 7:09:08 PM)

And Lincoln was always anti-slavery. This is totally clear in the Lincoln-Douglas debates, and indeed in all his pre-war speeches. It was just that his method of getting rid of it was to contain it within the geographic boundaries where it was permitted under the Constitution. Then it would gradually die away.

He (along with most other Americans) believed it was too radical and difficult to get rid of it in one go. He wanted a more moderate solution. As a lawyer, he also believed the legal right to slavery in its existing boundaries was "grandfathered" into the Constitution.

People are confused over this in part because slavery is so hated today that no one can believe that Lincoln could compromise with the institution even while being anti-slavery. But this was the "mainstream" anti-slavery position in the 1850s. Also, there are some people out there who still aren't too happy that the South lost the Civil War, and would rather not admit that the war was about defending slavery. But as a matter of historical fact, it was.




AquaticSub -> RE: Robert E. Lee Day (1/21/2008 7:12:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

AquaticSub:
Which other stuff besides the states right to have slavery?
thompson


It was also a question of "Can the federal government make this decision for us?". Southern states believed that that more power should reside in the state government and that they should be able to decide if slavery was illegal or not. The war was coming for a long while though, the right to own was simply the issue that got it started. I agree with historians who believe that the war was needed to decide if America was a collection of states or a one nation comprised of states, if you understand my meaning.




subexploring -> RE: Robert E. Lee Day (1/21/2008 7:17:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

As you said, the problem was that people wanted to own slaves in new areas of the country, hence my opinion that is was the right to own slaves was the cause of the war. If a war were started by the right to own cars in new areas of the country, I'd call it an issue of rights not a war over cars.

Which isn't to say that I approve of slavery, I'm glad it ended - just that the war wasn't about "Free the slaves!" as people like to believe.


If you want to say that the war was about the right to own slaves, rather than freeing the already existing slaves, then that is true. But it still makes the war about slavery.

The Civil War was fought over the *future* of slavery. Many people believed that if slavery was allowed to expand, then slavery would continue and possibly become legal throughout the entire nation (we would all be "slave states"). They also believed that if slavery was confined to the Old South, then it would eventually die out and the nation would become completely free.

As usual, Lincoln is completely clear on this -- he was a very clear and direct thinker, who said what he meant and meant what he said. Here he is from the "House Divided" speech, two years before the war:

" I believe this government cannot endure permanently half slave and half free. I do not expect the Union to be dissolved -- I do not expect the house to fall -- but I do expect it will cease to be divided. It will become all one thing, or all the other. Either the opponents of slavery will arrest the further spread of it, and place it where the public mind shall rest in the belief that it is in the course of ultimate extinction; or its advocates will push it forward, till it shall become alike lawful in all the States, old as well as new -- North as well as South."




MzMia -> RE: Robert E. Lee Day (1/21/2008 7:18:34 PM)

 
American Civil War From Sumter to Surrender at Appomattox

I am sure one of the primary reasons of the Civil War was to protect the Union.
[sm=hair.gif]  Lets see the Civil War was not about keeping free labor/slavery?  Sure it was
about economics, and slavery was about economics.

  The South wanted to succeed so that they could keep things the way they were.
Which meant keeping their slaves and separating from the UNION, so they could
create their own little country.
Lets keep it real here.
Lets see the White man went to Africa and engaged in buying and stealing Black Africans
and brought them to America to be SLAVES and work for free.
Slave labor was all about MONEY.
Next, I will hear how slavery was not so bad! [sm=hair.gif]
People are more ignorant than I thought.




subexploring -> RE: Robert E. Lee Day (1/21/2008 7:24:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

AquaticSub:
Which other stuff besides the states right to have slavery?
thompson


It was also a question of "Can the federal government make this decision for us?". Southern states believed that that more power should reside in the state government and that they should be able to decide if slavery was illegal or not. The war was coming for a long while though, the right to own was simply the issue that got it started. I agree with historians who believe that the war was needed to decide if America was a collection of states or a one nation comprised of states, if you understand my meaning.


The Southern states would never have gotten rid of slavery on their own, it was the entire basis of their economy. They didn't even get rid of segregation on their own, and segregation had little or no economic benefit to them.

Also, Lincoln quite explicitly was willing to give the Southern states that already had slavery the right to determine whether slavery was legal within their own borders. In other words, he was willing to go along with states rights, so long as the states did not actually secede. He only wanted to control the expansion of slavery into new territories that were under Federal jurisdiction (until they became states). It would have been interesting to see if that policy would have worked to eliminate slavery.

You're right that the practical consequence of the Civil War was the something close to the end of states rights.




kittinSol -> RE: Robert E. Lee Day (1/21/2008 7:24:39 PM)

I'm curious: why invoke a Robert Lee day on Martin Luther King's day?




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