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Unable to use your safeword? - 1/21/2008 8:40:08 PM   
hejira92


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We all know how important safewords are, and how we have to be unafraid to use them (no, we are not disappointing master. It is the sub's responsibility to protect master's property, etc.)
 
My question is- have you ever been unable to use your safe word?
 
I don't mean because of a gag or something- a signal suffices then- but because your mental state was just not right.
 
I'm not explaining well.
 
One time, Master was playing with me- not really extreme, but there was some mindfuck stuff going along with the physical (as there often is). Somehow, my mind left- not in a good way. I went totally fight-or-flight. Feral. I was in total survival mode- remaining outwardly calm while plotting my escape. I finally broke and went crazy- screaming and fighting (in His small townhouse. Yikes, He had to calm me fast.)
 
He had no clue from my behavior that my mind was freaked (until the screaming, of course) and I was so out of my mind that I didn't even realize I should call a safeword. I don't think I even knew what one was when I was in that state.
 
Has anyone ever dealt with a similar thing?
 
Is there a safeword/signal for mental/emotional danger as well as physical?
 
How would one recognize that they are in danger if it's the mind that is unbalanced?
 
And, please don't cop out with- it's the dom's responsibility to monitor. Believe me, it was not from a lack of Master's monitoring that caused or contributed to the situation. I got very clever in my feral state and made sure I didn't make any sudden moves to alert Him to anything being wrong. Yes, I was crazy.
 
Anyway. I ask here because I am interested in all opinions.

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RE: Unable to use your safeword? - 1/21/2008 8:52:02 PM   
juliaoceania


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There are a lot of people that post here that do not use safewords, and there are some that even find them to be "dangerous". I just wanted to put that out there, because you can plan on those people replying to this thread, as they do to all safeword threads.

They will even use the fact that a submissive cannot always use a safeword to "prove" that they are "unsafe", which is really not true... it is when a dom only relies on this form of communication that the problem comes in.

So, anyways, as to the premise of not being able to use my safeword? Yes, this happened to me once. He stopped anyways. I simply could not say my safeword, I felt as though i could not stop him no matter what he wanted to do with me, to me. It was an emotional thing and I just started to sob because while I wanted him to stop what he was doing on some level, I lost the will to stop him. It was that night I realized just how much I belong to him when I sink into subspace.

I also used a safeword once when I felt like I was going to vomit. It worked well on the one occasion I used it. He stopped immediately and took care of it.

He knew that there may come a time when I could get to the place that a safeword would not be able to be accessed by me, and he knows I cannot be counted on to say my safeword, but he has decreed that it remains at my disposal should I want to say it. This is his choice. I will say my safeword if I can and need to, I do not feel there is shame in it.

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RE: Unable to use your safeword? - 1/21/2008 9:01:25 PM   
hejira92


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania


So, anyways, as to the premise of not being able to use my safeword? Yes, this happened to me once. He stopped anyways. I simply could not say my safeword, I felt as though i could not stop him no matter what he wanted to do with me, to me. It was an emotional thing and I just started to sob because while I wanted him to stop what he was doing on some level, I lost the will to stop him. It was that night I realized just how much I belong to him when I sink into subspace.



Yes. I have experienced this. There is a level of acceptance of your fate being in His hands. And the feeling of being owned and at His mercy is complete.
 
And, thank you for the warning about safeword debates. I don't want to re-start anything. This is just a personal inquiry. I guess I'm still digesting this experience and I asking my community for input.

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RE: Unable to use your safeword? - 1/21/2008 9:14:21 PM   
DisenchantedLife


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I tried using a safe word once.  It was a long the lines of "hey, I'm done"  The response was "Wack wack wack"  my response was to become hysterical and no matter that a hood, gag and leather cuffs were in place - my hysteria simply lead to leather cuffs being broken. 

Moral of a story.  No matter if a safe word isn't used on a general bases - if you call an end to a session no matter the reason and you are simply ignored - the guys an asshole who doesnt care about your well being.  If he doesnt care about your well being, things will only get worse.  Its a lack of respect.  Any person who holds no respect for you will only hurt you.  No matter if you are in a serious M/s TPE Gor ect relationship.  It comes down to respect.

Lack of respect = bad news

edited to add - Apparently I missed the meaning of the post!  As I wrack my brain..... there was once I was unable to physically use a safe word.  Mainly because of an iron fist wrapped around my neck.  I couldn't speak!  There was another time I was afraid to use one..... sorry no lovely dovey shit here.  Wait.. my memory is coming up with something......... once my ex latched his jaws onto my vagina...... and I started speaking in demonic tongues.  I think I mentioned Lorena Bobbit at one point, other then that I can't remember everything that popped out of my mouth (or anything I'd like to repeat).  Yet, I was unable to utter any sort of safe word.  - )  Dern, still nothing sweet.

< Message edited by DisenchantedLife -- 1/21/2008 9:19:52 PM >

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RE: Unable to use your safeword? - 1/21/2008 9:17:24 PM   
LadyLolly


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Mindfuck is edge play.  It's more difficult to master than physical edge play because unless you are mind reader or have a very strong empathic bond - it's not generally readily visable what the effects on an inner working level are. should he have been able to "sense", smell fear, tension - maybe - but he didn't.

You deliberately (perhaps uncontrolably/irrationally) with held. 
Perhaps there was no telling on either side for what ever reason.

The main thing is a land mine was triggered in you.  Understanding and discovering why is very important.  We are the sum of our experiences throughout our life.  Some we remember, others we bury/suppress.  To have the reaction you did, something is there that needs to be better understood.

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RE: Unable to use your safeword? - 1/21/2008 9:22:38 PM   
hejira92


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DisenchantedLife

I tried using a safe word once.  It was a long the lines of "hey, I'm done"  The response was "Wack wack wack"  my response was to become hysterical and no matter that a hood, gag and leather cuffs were in place - my hysteria simply lead to leather cuffs being broken. 

Moral of a story.  No matter if a safe word isn't used on a general bases - if you call an end to a session no matter the reason and you are simply ignored - the guys an asshole who doesnt care about your well being.  If he doesnt care about your well being, things will only get worse.  Its a lack of respect.  Any person who holds no respect for you will only hurt you.  No matter if you are in a serious M/s TPE Gor ect relationship.  It comes down to respect.

Lack of respect = bad news


Thank you for the response, but did you read my post?* I HAVE an assigned safeword- Master certainly respects it as He assigned it.
 
The quandry came in when I didn't use it due to my own messed-up mind. There was, and is, and will never be, a lack of respect for my safety from Master. My well-being is His first priority. I will never doubt that. He demonstrates this everyday in words and deeds. 'nuff said.


*Oh, I see you did. sorry.

< Message edited by hejira92 -- 1/21/2008 9:24:32 PM >


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RE: Unable to use your safeword? - 1/21/2008 9:27:41 PM   
DisenchantedLife


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My response wasnt a personal response to you.  A general response on what I thought being unable to use your safeword

Edited to add - on a general bases for the millions of readers that read this stuff.  For other people who may not have some one that respects them. 

< Message edited by DisenchantedLife -- 1/21/2008 9:29:53 PM >

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RE: Unable to use your safeword? - 1/21/2008 9:29:37 PM   
hejira92


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyLolly

Mindfuck is edge play.  It's more difficult to master than physical edge play because unless you are mind reader or have a very strong empathic bond - it's not generally readily visable what the effects on an inner working level are. should he have been able to "sense", smell fear, tension - maybe - but he didn't.

You deliberately (perhaps uncontrolably/irrationally) with held. 
Perhaps there was no telling on either side for what ever reason.

The main thing is a land mine was triggered in you.  Understanding and discovering why is very important.  We are the sum of our experiences throughout our life.  Some we remember, others we bury/suppress.  To have the reaction you did, something is there that needs to be better understood.


You are so right! And we have been doing a lot of soul searching and work on this. The incident actually happened early November and it's only now that I am at a place to discuss it publicly. Master has handled the whole thing, and me, wonderfully.

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RE: Unable to use your safeword? - 1/22/2008 3:59:51 AM   
MistressVnus


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quote:

This is just a personal inquiry. I guess I'm still digesting this experience and I asking my community for input.


There are several different "levels" of subspace with very real "indicators" of which level a subject is in, or heading into.
The level you had reached is called "Primal Subspace".  I have copied an excerpt from an online dissertation about the different levels of subspace.  You can find more by just doing a search on "levels of subspace".  There is quite a bit of info on it.  I hope this helps.

SUB SPACE Subspace - This term generally is used to describe a moderate to deep trancelike condition experienced by persons in the submissive position in a D/s relationship during interaction with the person in the Dominant position in the relationship. TOP SPACE: I will start by regarding top space or normal space. This is operational ground zero. The submissive in top space often appears quite aggressive, assertive and dominant. They will be hustling their children off to school, dominating their Dominant mate by organizing him/her off to work, cleaning and straightening the house, sending themselves off to work or to take care of business. They are the Commander of the ship, the General of the Army. Hustle, hustle, hustle. This is a submissives TOP SPACE. MARGINALLY DOWN SPACE: This space occurs when the Dominant in the relationship directs attention at the submissive. This may be a glance, a light touch, a small sound or any combination of these triggers. This marginal appearing contact drops the submissive out of top space into a state of waiting and/or listening for command. She stops. Generally she will cease talking even in the midst of a comment. She may stop moving. She will generally attempt direct eye contact with her Dominant to see if he/she has a direction or command for her. If nothing further occurs she will most likely re-top. Or, go back to full functional top space. If the Dominant mentally presses...she will generally descend further into space. SPRITE SPACE: Some submissives will squirm and utterly deny that this space exists. They will swear to you that they don't have it, it doesn't exist and they would never perpetrate mischief. Hmmm. Essentially just under or into down space there is a space where the submissive will test the Dominants attention, desire and will to control her. She may unclip cuffs, slide out of assigned position - all in total innocence. She didn't hear that command, the blindfold muffled her ears...etc... Note: If she notes that the Dominant doesn't catch her action she will feel he isn't paying her attention, therefore doesn't love her (mind of women at work). BLONDE SPACE: Now, as the submissive descends into space her IQ tends to diminish in a progressive fashion. Many submissives will tell you that their up person is off to the side watching everything. They, will feel themselves getting slower mentally. I call this blonde space <ducking the non-peroxide blondes> In blonde space the submissive has trouble with rational thought. If you ask her if something is uncomfortable she is likely to say "I dunno". The truth is - she doesn't know. At this point she is not capable of distinguishing danger to herself, she cannot and will not utilize any safeword - it become incomprehensible to her. In her mind, she has you the Dominant, she loves and trusts you, you won't let anything happen to her. SUB-VOCAL or PRIMAL SPACE: Sometimes the Dominant and the submissive penetrate what I call the sub-vocal barrier. The submissive in this space loses her submissive nature. If you intend to take her there have her well tied. As she drops through into this deep space she can and will get feral. Her voice becoming primal grunts and sounds, her eyes may alter, she will he hypersensitive to sound, light, movement. She will be fast and very dangerous. She can and will claw you, bite you or toss you into a wall if you are a small man. In a sense she is tapping into ancient primal body language. She becomes a predator <I>barely</I> submitting. If she senses any weakness in your control she will attempt to take you out. She cannot ever utilize safe words here. She cannot remember how to articulate human speech. These are the basic levels of subspace. Prior to beginning an exploration of subspace the Dominant and submissive should have intensive conversations about what she may expect and how she may feel. The Dominant should set up a sequence of escape words. This should be a simple question that would never occur in common life. Something such as "What color is your left big toe?" Her auto-UP UP UP response might be "My left big toe is orange!" <giggle> Essentially this question asked at any time is her command to fast up or come to TOP SPACE NOW!!! This escape question should be practiced multiple times until it becomes automatic. I included the <giggle> for a very important reason...submissives in down space seldom laugh. Their ability to laugh and giggle seems to diminish as their focus intensifies on their Dominant in space. By requiring the <giggle> as well, the Dominant is assured that the submissive has returned to top space. Note: this command should only be used in a problem situation. For regular activities in subspace the submissive needs and desires to be 'caught' by the Dominant gently and allowed to return to top space in a normal way...this can take hours of after play cuddling. Some basic information: Never ever leave your submissive alone in space unless you wish to risk severe potential problems... You are her sole connection to reality. If you leave her alone she is likely to be terrified. She will return to top space at some point and may never forgive you for leaving her. Always keep your commands simple and direct. In space she will obey but comprehension is limited. Never impose responsibility on her for any aspect of the play. If you want interaction stay in Marginal Space or Sprite Space (sometimes known as Sammy Space). In any other down space she will not communicate well verbally. She may be unable to articulate your name at all. Talk to her in a reassuring fashion if penetration of subspace is new - she may be frightened. The further into space she goes the higher the chems pump into her blood stream and generally the more intensive the play can become. For a first timer, you need to tell her that subspace exists, what it is and how it may feel to her. She will desire to please you and open to seek this space. She must feel that you know what you are doing even if you do not. She must be convinced that she is utterly safe with you. Penetration of the different levels will vary for many reasons. Some people can only go so far. They have inhibitors. Often the penetration may occur over many months as the level of trust increases and the submissive relaxes into new experiences. You should not expect full flight from the beginning. 



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RE: Unable to use your safeword? - 1/22/2008 4:41:13 AM   
Taboo4Two


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hejira92
My question is- have you ever been unable to use your safe word?
 


For us its the norm. dee goes so deeply into sub space that she becomes non-verbal and physically unable to use any sort of a non-verbal signal.

I've always felt it was my responsibility to read her and to stop or at least significantly lessen the intensity of whatever I am doing to her at the time.

Flogging is probably the best example of how it works for us. Once she's in to that deep sub space I will switch to a very light touch with the flogger just to maintain the rythym. From experience I know that its the best way to keep her in that floaty happy place she's gone to. If I keep the intensity high when she is in that same place she reacts badly and often comes out of space frightened and lost.

Domino

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RE: Unable to use your safeword? - 1/22/2008 4:44:54 AM   
IrishMist


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quote:

We all know how important safewords are,

We do? Well fiddlefuck; I sure missed that memo

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RE: Unable to use your safeword? - 1/22/2008 4:52:57 AM   
DesFIP


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Usually when I go deep, the fact that I become nonverbal doesn't matter. The time I was suddenly in a place of extreme fear, he could tell by my body reactions. Usually I'm limp, melted. This one time my body became stiff, rigid. I probably hunched my shoulders to protect myself. He saw and felt the difference in my body language, untied me, and held me until I relaxed and could cry into his shoulder. I don't go primal though.

In general, I find a gesture to be easier than to speak a safeword. Somehow saying red is like being held down and forced to say uncle, with the resultant humiliation translating over from then till now. But a gesture has no pre-existing connotations and can be done without any problems. I open and close my fists very quickly to alert him to a problem when gagged, the same gesture works when I'm not gagged and also tells him I can't talk yet.

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RE: Unable to use your safeword? - 1/22/2008 5:00:56 AM   
crouchingtigress


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my thought on safewords is that it is more like guide lines...and extra measure of safty, but not to be depended on by either the dom or the sub..because of that very thing you speak about and some other experiances i have had as well..

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RE: Unable to use your safeword? - 1/22/2008 5:07:29 AM   
touchofeuphoria


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hejira92

We all know how important safewords are, and how we have to be unafraid to use them (no, we are not disappointing master. It is the sub's responsibility to protect master's property, etc.)
 
My question is- have you ever been unable to use your safe word?
 
I don't mean because of a gag or something- a signal suffices then- but because your mental state was just not right.
 
I'm not explaining well.
 
One time, Master was playing with me- not really extreme, but there was some mindfuck stuff going along with the physical (as there often is). Somehow, my mind left- not in a good way. I went totally fight-or-flight. Feral. I was in total survival mode- remaining outwardly calm while plotting my escape. I finally broke and went crazy- screaming and fighting (in His small townhouse. Yikes, He had to calm me fast.)
 
He had no clue from my behavior that my mind was freaked (until the screaming, of course) and I was so out of my mind that I didn't even realize I should call a safeword. I don't think I even knew what one was when I was in that state.
 
Has anyone ever dealt with a similar thing?
 
Is there a safeword/signal for mental/emotional danger as well as physical?
 
How would one recognize that they are in danger if it's the mind that is unbalanced?
 
And, please don't cop out with- it's the dom's responsibility to monitor. Believe me, it was not from a lack of Master's monitoring that caused or contributed to the situation. I got very clever in my feral state and made sure I didn't make any sudden moves to alert Him to anything being wrong. Yes, I was crazy.
 
Anyway. I ask here because I am interested in all opinions.


I have always found a lifestyle practice of meditation to keep me calm in situations that have a decent chance of bringing you into that "fight or flight" state of mind. If you're really worried about it happening again, try video taping your sessions with your master. After you two are done, go over them, and describe how you were feeling, what you were thinking at certain parts of the video. This can help your master realize certain things that might put you at risk for that again.

Also, incase a sub does freak and switch into that fight or flight mindset, it's always best to know a little martial arts. Targeting certain pressure points can bring someone down quickly, and with special care, can even change their moods and current mindsets.

< Message edited by touchofeuphoria -- 1/22/2008 5:08:38 AM >


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RE: Unable to use your safeword? - 1/22/2008 5:16:39 AM   
MaamJay


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Ah Mistress Vnus posted an excerpt from Mistress Steel's Chamber at Steel Door - some very good articles there.
As a sub, my own experience of subspace is a little different ... i tend to use numbers 1, 3, 5, 7 and 9 to indicate whether i am in normal space, slightly warm and fuzzy space, adrenalin space (everything is heightened), endorphin space (hard to speak and it hurts so good!), or deep space 9 (who am i? where am i? how do i lift my arm or move my leg?) i don't get violent in my deepest space so i wouldn't call it primal for me ... maybe i have just been lucky in not having anything deep inside that has been triggered by being there (so far anyway). One thing Master does is ask me "what number?" from time to time, so far i have more success in slurring out "7" or "9" than actually conjuring up a safeword out of the dim recesses of my coherent mind.

Master and I (in both My Domme and sub modes) have always held that a safeword can be used for any problem be it physical, mental, emotional, spiritual ... so if there's something wrong, say it. Another suggestion would be to have a gesture too ... if i snap my fingers against my palm 3 times that will alert Master to there being something wrong. That also might be easier to do when in mental torment than actually saying a word.

However, nothing is guaranteed, and has already been said, a Dom shouldn't rely solely on a safeword or gesture. That said, it seems that the OPs Master wasn't doing so and there was genuinely no obvious sign that He picked up that she was in trouble. That can happen ... no one and no system is infallible. What's important then is how it is handled ...  agree there is an issue there to be gently teased out and worked through ... that seems to be happening which is good. All the best to the OP and her Master.

Maam Jay aka violet[A]

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RE: Unable to use your safeword? - 1/22/2008 6:18:55 AM   
xxblushesxx


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It has never occurred to me when I am in that type of state, to use a safe word.
I suppose it may have made things a bit easier.
OP, I totally relate.
Thanks for posting this. It's nice to know I'm not the only one.

~Christina

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RE: Unable to use your safeword? - 1/22/2008 6:36:44 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

There are a lot of people that post here that do not use safewords, and there are some that even find them to be "dangerous".

Julia,
Don't know how you perceive this, but I would say the situation you describe below was "dangerous". This would be especially true for the situation where 'safe-words' are most often used; people with little or no experience with their own mental and emotional and emotional processing of the sensations. The helpless feeling can occur regardless of which side of the flogger you prefer.
quote:

Yes, this happened to me once. He stopped anyways. I simply could not say my safeword, I felt as though i could not stop him no matter what he wanted to do with me, to me. It was an emotional thing and I just started to sob because while I wanted him to stop what he was doing on some level, I lost the will to stop him.
It was fortunate that you had such an experienced person with your best interests in mind. Many, don't have that same luxury. Yours is a good example of the danger.

Thanks, I'll refer to it next time the subject arises at our munch.

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RE: Unable to use your safeword? - 1/22/2008 6:50:07 AM   
Evility


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You OP would have been so much better had you left off the first sentence.

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RE: Unable to use your safeword? - 1/22/2008 7:12:32 AM   
littlelostbunny


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hejira92

Somehow, my mind left- not in a good way.


Been there, done that, at least once. It was with somebody new and he was just touching me in ways that I wasn't used to with anyone. I ended up getting stuck in a rather bad headspace for several minutes, trying to figure out what I should do but finding myself unable to do anything about it. Finally, I managed to come back to myself enough to get him to stop -- I didn't safeword, but I did use our "slow" word.

I trust him a lot more, now, and we've talked about a lot, so this hasn't happened since. I think if I were to recognize that I was slipping back into that bad head space, again, I would probably safe/slow word out of it. I can't really give you any advice other than to recognize the signs and pull out while you're still sane. Trying to work your way through it on your own is not a good idea -- having someone else to ground you helps.


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RE: Unable to use your safeword? - 1/22/2008 7:15:04 AM   
Dari


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My pet is barely capable of uttering a safe word in top space.  It's a challenge going deeper (and we typically play in the blonde-to-primal areas, though he doesn't get violent) because there's no way he can be held responsible for anything that goes on.  Normally it takes him a day or so to have even a fuzzy idea of what happened, beyond the euphoria and sense of well-being that lasts for days.  For us, having a safe word is meaningless (though I do understand the desire to have one for some) because he doesn't have the ability to use it in the situations it would be most helpful.  Instead, I just have to pay very, very good attention, and make sure we stop when I think it's important to stop, not when he would cry mercy.


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