RE: Master and pet banned from the bus

RE: Master and pet banned from the bus (Full Version)

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celticlord2112 -> RE: Master and pet banned from the bus (1/24/2008 12:03:29 PM)
quote: Yet, that driver is fully entitled to be bigoted and wrong. Yet, if I go out with a slave on a leash, I'd be pretty foolish to think I won't or shouldn't experience a negative reaction from someone. Honestly, it was my understanding that many goths tend to actively seek those kinds of situations with the intention of provoking a response. Thus the couple in question also bear a measure of responsibility for their actions. In that regard, I agree. Everyone is sovereign in their own mind.

Asherdelampyr -> RE: Master and pet banned from the bus (1/24/2008 12:10:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Stephann quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 quote: Thus, someone calling me a 'freak' for leading my girl on a leash is well within their rights. True enough. And if that was all the off-duty bus driver had done, there would be so much less to discuss. It would still be bigoted and wrong, but it would also be down in the realm of the merely crass. The point I'm making, is that the driver is, in fact, bigoted, wrong, and crass. What he did wasn't illegal as a representative of the city transportation board, but rather the act of a private citizen who was intolerant. If I were his boss, I'd have fired him. Yet, that driver is fully entitled to be bigoted and wrong. Yet, if I go out with a slave on a leash, I'd be pretty foolish to think I won't or shouldn't experience a negative reaction from someone. Honestly, it was my understanding that many goths tend to actively seek those kinds of situations with the intention of provoking a response. Thus the couple in question also bear a measure of responsibility for their actions. Stephan I agree with you, the issue I have with it is that it was a bus driver that was off duty, that it seems physically attacked another person. A far as I can see, thats all that matters, no matter what you see/believe whatever, its never ok to physically hurt others, or try to, without their consent As far as all the bullshit I keep seeing about "imposing your kink on others" The hell with that, they arenet kidnapping people and focing them to go to fetish clubs, or anything like that, all the are doing is quietly living their lives, should I quit wearing bondage pants because of the name? what about people whos "kink" is to wear chastity belts and the like, should they be told that they shouldn't ever go outside, just in case someone sees a bit of it when they bend over? I saw in another post on here that someone likened this to people wearing really shorts skirts that exposed their genitals and the like, my argument to that is that those are clearly illegal, and they can get arrested for it, but unless the female half of the couple in question pops out a tit or something, they aren't breaking any laws. Now on the other hand, while the driver was on duty he had the right to refuse service to anyone, that is part of the price you pay when you look different from the crowd. he even has the right, all the time to call them whatever the hell he wishes, thats free speech. Isnt it wonderful when we all get freedom? ~Asher (wondering how many people in Utah get offended because of his long hair)

Stephann -> RE: Master and pet banned from the bus (1/24/2008 12:13:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FreeAgent Is making the decision to put on a collar and be lead around on a leash not contrived behavior? It's a planned decision they've made in choosing to put these items on and wear them in public for others to see. I choose not to do things, because I am aware it will offend people in public all the time. Yet, I own that decision; nobody has the right to restrict my behavior so long as I act within the law. I am not obligated to seek other's consent to my legal activities in public. In honesty, I am pretty toned down in public; yet only because I am empathic enough that I feel bad, when I make other people fee bad. Asher, If the bus driver did, in fact, attack the other fellow, then he's violated the law and should be addressed in that fashion. Regards, Stephan

Asherdelampyr -> RE: Master and pet banned from the bus (1/24/2008 12:19:38 PM)
good that we can agree Stephann. also my compliments for the beautiful woman you have pictured with you :P

thetammyjo -> RE: Master and pet banned from the bus (1/24/2008 12:36:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: brainiacsub quote: ORIGINAL: sirguym I strongly disagree; may I make an anaology that may help explain why. There is a substantial population in the UK of muslim people. Many of their women-folk wear the niquab; the veil that hides the face below the eyes; or the burqua, the all-enveloping garment with a gauze 'window'. I find both unsettling to see, particularly the burqua, and I consider the whole baggage of cultural assumptions and religious fundamentalism that often goes with it to be both dangerous and misogynist for all concerned. But I accept that these women have the right to hold those views if they wish, however abhorrent I find those views; and to wear the garments that proclaim that they accept that set of cultural (for it is NOT a religious thing, there are many muslim women who don't wear them) views. I agree with you that form and mode of dress is cultural and should be tolerated - up to a point. Would it be acceptable for indigenous peoples of New Guinea to walk around the streets of London or New York wearing only a boar tooth necklace and a penis sheath? I think not. But, the niquab and burqua do not qualify. Again, I agree with you that it should be their right to wear it if they so choose, but the problem I have with this argument is that many of these women do not feel or understand that they have a choice. Therefore, for many of these women, their cultural dress is actually oppression thinly veiled (no pun intended) as cultural and/or religious expression. I support those who are educated and free enough to have a choice and wish to exercise it. I would be willing to bet that it is not the majority. I'm not sure that we, outsiders to that culture, have a right or responsibility to "help" them. Shouldn't that be something that those who are oppressed need to first speak up or ask help for? I just wonder if it will be a very slippery slope. What's to prevent someone else from looking at how you or I live and say we need to be saved? I'm all for helping those who want to fight for their rights but they have to take that first step otherwise they not only will not welcome the "help" but may work against it.

MisPandora -> RE: Master and pet banned from the bus (1/24/2008 12:38:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Stephann quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 quote: Being led by a leash is not socially acceptable for anyone, therefore a Goth cannot claim discrimination if they are not allowed to do it. Again, should there be some debate and dialogue as to whether or not this behavior is acceptable? Probably, but that was not the point of my objection. Why are we limited to what is "socially acceptable"? Since when does one need ask neighbor's permission to live one's life? One doesn't. Yet, since when did the neighbor need permission to strongly voice their opinion in a legal manner, against how I live? If I'm a bus driver, I have an enormous amount of responsibility. The lives of the dozen or so people are literally in my care. I'm entitled to work that job as I see fit; if I saw people in white sheets and hoods trying to get on the bus, I'd (personally) deny their entry. Yet, they're well within their rights to be part of the KKK, and express their dislike of blacks. If my boss doesn't agree, he can always fire me. But no law says any employee (city or otherwise) is obligated to service anyone if they refuse. You can't force someone to do a job they don't want to do; all you can do is fire them. Stephan Their white robe may very well be our leash and restraints. Do you have proof that these individuals in the robes are violent or have an agenda to bring harm to the persons on that bus, or are you using judgement that they're in hite robes and identifying as KKK and as such, they're all monsters? I'm of the opinion that they could accomplish their mission without the robe, just like we could accomplish what we need to do in the public eye without our acoutrements. And whether we're the KKK, the Hare Krishnas, or the BDSMers, I tend to think that some of us like the shock campaign we go on when we go into the public spotlight wearing and doing the things that we do for the attention that it brings.

MisPandora -> RE: Master and pet banned from the bus (1/24/2008 12:42:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sirguym I strongly disagree; may I make an anaology that may help explain why. There is a substantial population in the UK of muslim people. Many of their women-folk wear the niquab; the veil that hides the face below the eyes; or the burqua, the all-enveloping garment with a gauze 'window'. I find both unsettling to see, particularly the burqua, and I consider the whole baggage of cultural assumptions and religious fundamentalism that often goes with it to be both dangerous and misogynist for all concerned. snipped Uh, you're comparing RELIGION with a chosen social behavior or "hobby". I hardly think the two belong in the same category!

Stephann -> RE: Master and pet banned from the bus (1/24/2008 12:44:58 PM)
If I'm the driver of that bus, it's my word that matters. If my boss doesn't like it, he can find another driver. Doesn't matter to me if they're KKK, Hare Crishnas, BDSMers, rednecks, or MSU Spartan fans; I'm the first, last, and final authority on who gets on and who doesn't. If I think someone getting on my bus is going to cause a problem and endanger the lives of others, they don't. If you had a bus filled with twenty black panthers, and you saw five KKK guys about to climb on, would you let them? Same deal; if I had twenty KKK ers on my bus, and I saw five black guys try to get on, I'd refuse it. Damn, I'm glad I don't drive a bus. Stephan

brainiacsub -> RE: Master and pet banned from the bus (1/24/2008 12:45:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark quote: ORIGINAL: FreeAgent And you're right, I see people vomit, boogers in noses all gross things I don't want to see BUT, all things that are inside the social norm. Which is what this comes down to. I am as kinky as the next person but, I do still believe that those that do not share my kinks have the right to live their lives as they choose without me imposing my lifestyle on them. And yet until something is seen regularly, it will never be inside the 'social norm'. So which comes first. Chicken or egg? the.dark. the.dark., See my response to GreedyTop. Is this not a question of education and activism? Every underrepresented and minority goup has faced this issue. When peoples understanding of the significance and symbolism associated with the collar and leash changes, their attitudes will follow. Before I became educated about the lifestyle, if I had seen someone leading another around by a leash I would have thought them behaving like animals. We cannot blame the public for thinking this way. But it will take smart, committed, and tolerant people within the lifestyle to be advocates and agents for change, not this idiot young couple that we are discussing here.

celticlord2112 -> RE: Master and pet banned from the bus (1/24/2008 12:52:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MisPandora quote: ORIGINAL: sirguym I strongly disagree; may I make an anaology that may help explain why. There is a substantial population in the UK of muslim people. Many of their women-folk wear the niquab; the veil that hides the face below the eyes; or the burqua, the all-enveloping garment with a gauze 'window'. I find both unsettling to see, particularly the burqua, and I consider the whole baggage of cultural assumptions and religious fundamentalism that often goes with it to be both dangerous and misogynist for all concerned. snipped Uh, you're comparing RELIGION with a chosen social behavior or "hobby". I hardly think the two belong in the same category! While the niqab is justified in the Hadith and to some extent in the Quran, I do believe its usage is fundamentally more cultural than religious in nature. As with so many things in ethnically derived religions, the line between religion and culture is quite blurry--but anything culturally based would certainly belong in the same category as leashes.

RCdc -> RE: Master and pet banned from the bus (1/24/2008 12:58:56 PM)
Now your assumption is that these are an idiot young couple. I haven't read it that way. But it all comes down to interpretation though hey. Here is a question - what if it was Darcy and myself walking down the street? Would that make a difference and why? the.dark.

MisPandora -> RE: Master and pet banned from the bus (1/24/2008 1:07:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 quote: ORIGINAL: MisPandora quote: ORIGINAL: sirguym I strongly disagree; may I make an anaology that may help explain why. There is a substantial population in the UK of muslim people. Many of their women-folk wear the niquab; the veil that hides the face below the eyes; or the burqua, the all-enveloping garment with a gauze 'window'. I find both unsettling to see, particularly the burqua, and I consider the whole baggage of cultural assumptions and religious fundamentalism that often goes with it to be both dangerous and misogynist for all concerned. snipped Uh, you're comparing RELIGION with a chosen social behavior or "hobby". I hardly think the two belong in the same category! While the niqab is justified in the Hadith and to some extent in the Quran, I do believe its usage is fundamentally more cultural than religious in nature. As with so many things in ethnically derived religions, the line between religion and culture is quite blurry--but anything culturally based would certainly belong in the same category as leashes. Then we run full circle and go back to the reasons WHY people in the general public react badly when they see a woman being led on a leash -- culture. We live in an era where it isn't ok to demoralize women and women should have equality, just like races should. To the untrained eye, a male leading a woman on a leash may very well be that spark that lights a roaring fire of hatred and bigotry, even though we know that "in our world", that leash is empowerment, love and a whole lot of positives that the mun public could never imagine.

celticlord2112 -> RE: Master and pet banned from the bus (1/24/2008 1:24:59 PM)
quote: Then we run full circle and go back to the reasons WHY people in the general public react badly when they see a woman being led on a leash -- culture. We live in an era where it isn't ok to demoralize women and women should have equality, just like races should. To the untrained eye, a male leading a woman on a leash may very well be that spark that lights a roaring fire of hatred and bigotry, even though we know that "in our world", that leash is empowerment, love and a whole lot of positives that the mun public could never imagine. Which merely proves that discrimination is the arbitrary imposition of personal values and beliefs on others. It's one thing for me to say that "X" behavior is wrong for me (e.g., I would never require a niqab of my slaves); it is quite another for me to say that "X" behavior is wrong for someone else.

celticlord2112 -> RE: Master and pet banned from the bus (1/24/2008 1:27:14 PM)
quote: But it will take smart, committed, and tolerant people within the lifestyle to be advocates and agents for change, not this idiot young couple that we are discussing here. It is worth noting that Rosa Parks was committed mainly to resting her tired feet.

Asherdelampyr -> RE: Master and pet banned from the bus (1/24/2008 1:41:33 PM)
If you want to star a fire, it only takes one spark

Stephann -> RE: Master and pet banned from the bus (1/24/2008 1:42:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 quote: Then we run full circle and go back to the reasons WHY people in the general public react badly when they see a woman being led on a leash -- culture. We live in an era where it isn't ok to demoralize women and women should have equality, just like races should. To the untrained eye, a male leading a woman on a leash may very well be that spark that lights a roaring fire of hatred and bigotry, even though we know that "in our world", that leash is empowerment, love and a whole lot of positives that the mun public could never imagine. Which merely proves that discrimination is the arbitrary imposition of personal values and beliefs on others. It's one thing for me to say that "X" behavior is wrong for me (e.g., I would never require a niqab of my slaves); it is quite another for me to say that "X" behavior is wrong for someone else. Personally, I feel entirely comfortable saying "X" behavior is wrong for someone else too. It's more of an issue of if I attempt to degrade others, for engaging in "X" activity that I don't agree with. I think degrading others, in any form, for any reason, is wrong. Thus, I find it equally distasteful whether it be conservative evangelists degrading the 'sinners' or rednecks degrading 'ragheads' or liberals degrading 'neo-cons'. I'm the first to defend the right to voice an unpopular opinion, but in the same sentence I've also been known to openly condemn the person who voiced that opinion. Thus, I reserve the right to impose my personal beliefs on whomever comes within my sphere of influence. Everyone imposes their beliefs on others, in one way or another; it's not a bad thing, so long as it's not done at swordpoint. Stephan

domiguy -> RE: Master and pet banned from the bus (1/24/2008 1:58:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Stephann If I'm the driver of that bus, it's my word that matters. If my boss doesn't like it, he can find another driver. Doesn't matter to me if they're KKK, Hare Crishnas, BDSMers, rednecks, or MSU Spartan fans; I'm the first, last, and final authority on who gets on and who doesn't. If I think someone getting on my bus is going to cause a problem and endanger the lives of others, they don't. If you had a bus filled with twenty black panthers, and you saw five KKK guys about to climb on, would you let them? Same deal; if I had twenty KKK ers on my bus, and I saw five black guys try to get on, I'd refuse it. Damn, I'm glad I don't drive a bus. Stephan Why did you let the 20 KKK ers on your bus to begin with?....Where were they all going? Are there still any black panthers alive?...Bobby Seals has got to be in his seventies...Is you bus equipped with lifts and all of that other shit that allows access for those who might be elderly or handicapped? At my bus company there would be a few rules....No loud music. No smoking. And no cock sucking, motherfucking Goths! Let me chime in one more time....We live in a society that doesn't care if you identify yourself as a slave, some sort of critter or a fucking fairie. However, depending on what you arer doing and where you are going you should present yourself in a somewhat acceptable manner. I don't know what it exactly is...But dragging around your dead, pale white vampire chick around on a leash may not always fit that definition. Before Christmas I happened to be doing a little shopping at a Mall on the south side of Chicago. Normally I wouldn't be caught dead in a mall but I was pressed for time and I thought it would also afford me the chance to check out some of da fine-ass sistahs. ...It was crowded and, hating people as I do, I knew that it was going to be a short lived experience. I was wearing a Cub's hat when a security guard told me that if I intended to shop at the mall I needed to remove my cap. The security guard obviously sensing that I am a bad ass, gun totin', gang lovin', mothah fuckin' playa...Informed me that it was for everyone's good and because of the gangs that baseball caps are no longer tolerated within the mall. It is not illegal to wear a ball cap. Being the wise pimp dat I am I removed my ballcap cuz it ain't nuttin' to me....'sides the 'yatches like to look at my beautiful brown thick locks. See, I could have caused a big commotion...But common sense prevailed and I removed my cap and immediately proceeded up the escalator to hit on that Puerto Rican hottie in the food court. See these fucktards didn't want to take that course...I'm sure every fucking time they went out she was wearing her leash and he was holding it. It's no sweat off of my balls either way. I just think they are idiots. Oooooh look at the fucking vampires....Day walkers! and oh my god.. he's holding a leash. Anything for shock! Anything to garnish attention to his pathetic life. Get the fuck off of my fucking bus, you fucking freak!....You can leave the girl behind, she might come in handy...I think that Puerto Rican hottie at the food court will go both ways.

domiguy -> RE: Master and pet banned from the bus (1/24/2008 2:13:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 quote: But it will take smart, committed, and tolerant people within the lifestyle to be advocates and agents for change, not this idiot young couple that we are discussing here. It is worth noting that Rosa Parks was committed mainly to resting her tired feet. Comparing Rosa Parks and all she endured to these two nitwits is beyond belief. If I was driving a bus I wouldn't let you on. We have rules on my bus as to how one constructs an argument that allows them to ride. Sorry. The short bus will be here in about a half hour.....Is this the reason I'm on moderation?...lol. But I'm a Moderationist! Dammit!

subrob1967 -> RE: Master and pet banned from the bus (1/24/2008 2:26:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 Keep rereading. You may get there eventually. As reported, it is the bus driver's behavior that steps outside the realm of civilized conduct. (Remember, nice people, even nice vanilla people, do not go around calling people freaks and shoving them around. If someone shoved me, for whatever reason, "fascist pig" would be the nicest thing I would have to say about him) Again... We have Lurch's version of the story, collaborated by Fifi the human Poodle, and thats it. No police report, no report from the company, no statement from the driver, or potential witnesses. Like I said, right now it's a He said, one sided story, and until the other side comes out, I stand by the company, and it's regulations. Until I hear the official version of the story, where the driver is guilty of something.

shysub0951 -> RE: Master and pet banned from the bus (1/24/2008 2:37:47 PM)
They were correct for standing up for themselves and to me it is still considered discrimination no matter where you live. Good for them.

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