RE: Master and pet banned from the bus

RE: Master and pet banned from the bus (Full Version)

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brainiacsub -> RE: Master and pet banned from the bus (1/25/2008 12:25:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MisPandora quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 While the niqab is justified in the Hadith and to some extent in the Quran, I do believe its usage is fundamentally more cultural than religious in nature. As with so many things in ethnically derived religions, the line between religion and culture is quite blurry--but anything culturally based would certainly belong in the same category as leashes. Then we run full circle and go back to the reasons WHY people in the general public react badly when they see a woman being led on a leash -- culture. We live in an era where it isn't ok to demoralize women and women should have equality, just like races should. To the untrained eye, a male leading a woman on a leash may very well be that spark that lights a roaring fire of hatred and bigotry, even though we know that "in our world", that leash is empowerment, love and a whole lot of positives that the mun public could never imagine. Bravo! Very good. I have been trying to say it, but you said it better.

brainiacsub -> RE: Master and pet banned from the bus (1/25/2008 12:34:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GreedyTop quote: ORIGINAL: brainiacsub ...snip... I would also like to add that if you really feel this way, I think you must ask yourself if you are prepared to become an advocate for social change and work to educate the public as to the symbolism and significance of the collar and leash in the lifestyle. This act of dominance and submission will never be viewed by the public as anything more than diminishing human life to that of the likes of animals. What society would want that? This is a perfect example of why social norms exist to begin with. Changing them requires education and activism. I agree that education and activism are vaulable tools in effecting change. But how do we know that these two individuals are active BDSMers? fetish clothing (and accessories like collars and leashes) have become fairly mainstream (think Hot Topic). Collars and leashes on girlfriends/boyfriends are no longer solely the property of kinksters grin I believe there was some reference in this thread about the couple making statements (Master/pet kind of thing) which would indicated that they were into/knowledgeable about the lifestyle.

RCdc -> RE: Master and pet banned from the bus (1/25/2008 5:35:26 AM)
This is Darcy The couple involved have just appeared on the Jeremy Vine radio show on BBC Radio 2, and I caught the last fifteen minutes of their interview as I was driving. They came across as intelligent, articulate people, who were somewhat surprised by the attention their complaint has caused. Far from being the benefit scrounging wastrels that the media would have you believe, she is actually at college, and he is about to start a course to become a community carer, working with the disabled and disadvantaged children. (All of which may be merely good PR, of course, but if so then they certainly talked a good talk) Re the lifestyle, however, they struck me as being into the lifestyle for the 'image' rather than the way of life. The girl described herself as submissive, yet the boy is the one who does all the cooking, cleaning, and other tasks that for me would be encompassed by the whole 'service' ethos. As a humourous aside, she also claimed to be heavily into gothic music, but had no idea who Joy Division were when Vine raised the point. [:D] Overall, they appeared to be a pleasant couple, who have done nothing particularly wrong. In fact, when I was younger I used to go out in spandex trousers, and I suggest that the sight of a collar and leash is infinitely less disturbing that my extremely visible schlong bulge was [;)]

Aneirin -> RE: Master and pet banned from the bus (1/25/2008 5:47:37 AM)
I just think this whole episode is sad, and a sad reflection on our 'live and let live society'. As to the bus driver who is reported to have assaulted the boy, I do hope now that at least he has felt the oh so cuddly arm of the law and is no longer a bus driver or even employed. Assaults on passengers, whatever next, maybe passengers will be herded onto buses with cattle prods. Whether the two be kinky or not, it does not matter, they were doing nothing unlawful or even obscene, just happy in their existance, harming no one. Just plain sad.

AquaticSub -> RE: Master and pet banned from the bus (1/25/2008 6:03:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: brainiacsub Idiot may have been too strong a word, but the sentiment still stands. They are young, self centered, provoking, lacking in empathy for others(with regards to this issue), have a sense of entitlement, and behave foolishly. But these are not necessarily bad things for their age. Who among us did not have at least some of those qualities when we were their age. But, as agents of social change, who would ever listen to them? If you and Darcy chose the same course of action, you would likely get the same response they did. You know this in advance, so why would you do it? From what I can tell, you and Darcy are intelligent, thoughtful, and mature adults. Why, if you were striving for social acceptance of your kink, would you act in such a provacative manner? You guys are artists, and according to your profile, accomplished ones. Why would you chose this course of action which will only serve to provoke and incite, when you could produce imagery and words that would inspire discourse, push boundaries open hearts and change minds? That, to me, is the difference. Social acceptance of something new is never a painless path. People, as a group, hate change. But this thread just keeps running around the point: If you are different, you deserve what you get and I've got some questions that haven't been answered... 1) If one of my vanilla friends wore a collar and leash because it appealed to them as an accessory and they were treated the same, would they also be idiots exposing the public to a kink? If not, why is it impossible for us to also wear these items as a fashion accessory? 2) For various reasons (none including anything so interesting as making a statement), I recently dyed my hair an unnatural color. That makes me different from the social norms, at least around here. I used to have a lot of piercings. If the sight of these things offends someone, should I be kept off a bus and called freak? I mean, if the logic here is that "different from the norm means you deserve what you get"...

RCdc -> RE: Master and pet banned from the bus (1/25/2008 6:05:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: brainiacsub Idiot may have been too strong a word, but the sentiment still stands. They are young, self centered, provoking, lacking in empathy for others(with regards to this issue), have a sense of entitlement, and behave foolishly. But these are not necessarily bad things for their age. Who among us did not have at least some of those qualities when we were their age. But, as agents of social change, who would ever listen to them? If you and Darcy chose the same course of action, you would likely get the same response they did. You know this in advance, so why would you do it? From what I can tell, you and Darcy are intelligent, thoughtful, and mature adults. Why, if you were striving for social acceptance of your kink, would you act in such a provacative manner? You guys are artists, and according to your profile, accomplished ones. Why would you chose this course of action which will only serve to provoke and incite, when you could produce imagery and words that would inspire discourse, push boundaries open hearts and change minds? That, to me, is the difference. I will grant you that they are young and maybe naive to think that this sort of thing would not draw attention. But the actions of the driver (and being from the UK I do know the laws on buses) was out of order. And absolutely stupid. You get pushchairs on buses. You get children on leashes on buses. You get animals on buses. The chain the girl was wearing was no more a safety issue than any of these - I have seen people mention this as part of the problem and it clearly wasn't. It was one off duty bus driver with a bee in his bonnet. I have worn a collar that has been remarked upon in the street, and I will be open and frank and happy to talk about it. As for Darcy and I - I have walked down the street wearing a leash with him. Apart from a small giggle from a trendy wine bar, not one person even double looked. But then again, I have giggled at people in jumpsuits or those with the tops of their underwear showing. But I wouldn;t attack a person or deride them publically for their choice of attire. So I have to ask... why is it the dressed person has to be the one solely to blame, and not the reactions of the attackers? Seriously, it comes to the point - and this isn;t the first time I have said this in the past couple of weeks, where a girl cannot walk down the street in a short skirt, and have to expect to be called a whore? Expect to be touched up? And yes as artists we do try and promote and provoke with our imagery and writings, and with our photography. the.dark.

GreedyTop -> RE: Master and pet banned from the bus (1/25/2008 6:08:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: brainiacsub quote: ORIGINAL: GreedyTop quote: ORIGINAL: brainiacsub ...snip... I would also like to add that if you really feel this way, I think you must ask yourself if you are prepared to become an advocate for social change and work to educate the public as to the symbolism and significance of the collar and leash in the lifestyle. This act of dominance and submission will never be viewed by the public as anything more than diminishing human life to that of the likes of animals. What society would want that? This is a perfect example of why social norms exist to begin with. Changing them requires education and activism. I agree that education and activism are vaulable tools in effecting change. But how do we know that these two individuals are active BDSMers? fetish clothing (and accessories like collars and leashes) have become fairly mainstream (think Hot Topic). Collars and leashes on girlfriends/boyfriends are no longer solely the property of kinksters grin I believe there was some reference in this thread about the couple making statements (Master/pet kind of thing) which would indicated that they were into/knowledgeable about the lifestyle. ""I am a pet, I generally act animal like and I lead a really easy life," she said." other than the writer of the article referring to her as a pet, this is the only reference I could find in the article to her being a pet. From Darcy: "The couple involved have just appeared on the Jeremy Vine radio show on BBC Radio 2, and I caught the last fifteen minutes of their interview as I was driving. They came across as intelligent, articulate people, who were somewhat surprised by the attention their complaint has caused. Far from being the benefit scrounging wastrels that the media would have you believe, she is actually at college, and he is about to start a course to become a community carer, working with the disabled and disadvantaged children. (All of which may be merely good PR, of course, but if so then they certainly talked a good talk) Re the lifestyle, however, they struck me as being into the lifestyle for the 'image' rather than the way of life. The girl described herself as submissive, yet the boy is the one who does all the cooking, cleaning, and other tasks that for me would be encompassed by the whole 'service' ethos. As a humourous aside, she also claimed to be heavily into gothic music, but had no idea who Joy Division were when Vine raised the point. [:D] " Enough said :) "Overall, they appeared to be a pleasant couple, who have done nothing particularly wrong. In fact, when I was younger I used to go out in spandex trousers, and I suggest that the sight of a collar and leash is infinitely less disturbing that my extremely visible schlong bulge was [;)] " Woohoo!! LOL

Aswad -> RE: Master and pet banned from the bus (1/25/2008 6:46:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MisPandora What you're describing is assault, and a racially-motivated hate crime, but it's NOT discrimination. Yeah, okay, whatever. Pretend I said what your first line indicated that you understood me to mean, then. Health, al-Aswad.

Aswad -> RE: Master and pet banned from the bus (1/25/2008 6:54:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NakedOnMyChain Regardless of this, there are things that it is inappropriate for children of a certain age, specifically quite young, to see. I will not argue that point here, except to say that affection is not one of those things, nor are clothes and accessories among those things. As a matter of fact, if it is legal in a public space, it's something they have to get used to sooner or later. But, yes, it may be that one should keep children away from public spaces until they reach a certain age. To impose the choice to have children on the public space by forcing it to become their private space, however; negates any argument about consent. quote: Although each parent must draw the line where they will, I believe that most would agree that an open flogging taking place on public tranport would be a good place to draw that line. Quite so. Equally, it wouldn't be appropriate for a vanilla het couple to start fucking on a public transport, either. Which is also a thing that is regulated by law, unlike leashes and collars. But the semantic content of a flogging is radically different from a lifestyle couple carrying a leash, after all. quote: On the other hand, I don't feel that a woman wearing a collar and leash for her dominant is in any capacity something that crosses that line. That is the point I was trying to get across. If I didn't do that clearly, I apologize. No need to apologize; I didn't read you correctly, then. Health, al-Aswad.

Gwynvyd -> RE: Master and pet banned from the bus (1/25/2008 7:28:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark So I have to ask... why is it the dressed person has to be the one solely to blame, and not the reactions of the attackers? Seriously, it comes to the point - and this isn;t the first time I have said this in the past couple of weeks, where a girl cannot walk down the street in a short skirt, and have to expect to be called a whore? Expect to be touched up? And yes as artists we do try and promote and provoke with our imagery and writings, and with our photography. the.dark. I had thought about this myself... there was a time here in the states and it still happens when rape victims were looked at as the evil ones.. "well what did they do to draw attention to themselves?" "What was she wearing?" "How short was her skirt" "Did she dance with any one at the bar that night" The scum bag lawyers would place the blame on the girl because of what she _wore_. Surely she should have known wearing a skirt above the calf would have incited a rapist somewhere? Surely. This is why women in the Middle East are under decentcy laws to cover themselves to protect thier virtue, because an ankle, or glimpse of thier full face in some cultures would incite men to rape. How is blaming this couple for the way they _dressed_ in direct porportion to what treatment they recived any different? It is not. I dont care if I walk into a club in a corset, and mini skirt I deserve to be treated as a lady period. I do not _deserve_ to be jumped out in the clubs parking lot by some jackass because of how I was dressed. I am a mother and I do not shield my child from the world. We discuss the news issues, the war, the economy, and diversity. I do not keep him from my gay friends, my straight friends, jewish, muslim, christian, pagan or any other types. We live near Tampa.. which is Goth central.. smiles even SNL said it was.. he has seen tons of people on leashes, in leather, all in black.. ect. He is a small adult in the making. It is nothing sexual.. it does not need to be anything sexual. Sadly adults focus and get lost on that one thing. Kids have no idea.. and couldnt give a rats ass about it to be honest. The clothes either look cool or weird to them. That is all. I like having an open line of communication with my son. I have never said you are too young to know about things.. I have explained it to his level and only to the point I felt comfortable with, and told him we would go back to it when he got older. The lil snot is much to smart to let me drop it. Often prejudice is so well buried we dont notice even in ourselves. Next time you see someone looking differently from you all ~ be it goth, or "slutty" or what have you listen to what your inner dialouge says. If the "slutty" one gets an "she is just askin' for it" bap yourself up side the head and try to correct yourself. If the goth gets a " they must not have jobs, blah blah blah losers" bap yourself up side the head and really think if you would like people making snap decisions on how you look. Change starts with ourselves. How in the hell can you ask others to change if you don't do it first? ~ and yes this goes well beyond a bloke leading some little tart on a leash. ( said that way to illustrate ) Gwyn

Stephann -> RE: Master and pet banned from the bus (1/25/2008 7:31:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: brainiacsub Asher, can I ask you something? Is there nothing you find objectionable for public consumption? Think beyond kink for a moment. And forget the obvious, like criminal or violent behavior, gratuitous cruelty, and things of that nature. Is there nothing that would shock you or give you pause if you accidently saw it? If you can imagine anything that would not be appropriate (that is within the law), is it so hard to accept that others may find things objectionable as well, such as kink? In other words, is it your position that any behavior/dress within the law should be acceptable? If not, how do you propose that we establish boundaries and guidelines for public display/consumption? See, there's an opposing side of the spectrum here. If everyone made a sincere effort to hide unusual proclivities, the instances where we see unusual people in our lives would drastically drop. That means every time you happened to come across unusual or odd people, it would be even more of a shock. This only encourages uniformity; we can see examples of places like Saudi Arabia, when Western women (journalists, travellers, diplomats) who walk down the street without a burka or chadari startle and offend those around them. It's not the fact that their faces are shown, it's the fact that so few women show their faces that make it such a spectacle. I'm not advocating people should intentionally behave as freaks (and as I pointed out in the other thread, no small amount of being 'Goth' is wrapped in actively seeking to elicit a reaction from others.) I'm saying that people should simply act as they feel they should, so long as it doesn't display wanton cruelty or maliciously incite others to attack them (A 'Fuck You Whitey/Nigger/Geek/Venutian T-Shirt, for example.) Stephan

celticlord2112 -> RE: Master and pet banned from the bus (1/25/2008 8:57:05 AM)
quote: Asher, can I ask you something? Is there nothing you find objectionable for public consumption? Think beyond kink for a moment. And forget the obvious, like criminal or violent behavior, gratuitous cruelty, and things of that nature. Is there nothing that would shock you or give you pause if you accidently saw it? If you can imagine anything that would not be appropriate (that is within the law), is it so hard to accept that others may find things objectionable as well, such as kink? In other words, is it your position that any behavior/dress within the law should be acceptable? If not, how do you propose that we establish boundaries and guidelines for public display/consumption? Is it your contention that there exists the inalienable right of the individual not to be offended?

Asherdelampyr -> RE: Master and pet banned from the bus (1/25/2008 8:59:56 AM)
Everyon quoting the question... noone quoting the answer.. :(

celticlord2112 -> RE: Master and pet banned from the bus (1/25/2008 10:20:09 AM)
quote: Idiot may have been too strong a word, but the sentiment still stands. They are young, self centered, provoking, lacking in empathy for others(with regards to this issue), have a sense of entitlement, and behave foolishly. But these are not necessarily bad things for their age. Who among us did not have at least some of those qualities when we were their age. But, as agents of social change, who would ever listen to them? Wow. You learned all that about them from one single article? Your powers of perception astound. I did not realize you had such intimate knowledge of them as individuals. Wow.

GreedyTop -> RE: Master and pet banned from the bus (1/25/2008 10:59:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Asherdelampyr Everyon quoting the question... noone quoting the answer.. :( the answer is 42. grin

Th3AbbyNormal -> RE: Master and pet banned from the bus (1/26/2008 10:55:49 AM)
well, after reading this im somewhat saddened, little confused and wondering what the big deal was all about. she was one a leash, why is that so hard for the bus driver guy to understand. whenever im out in public with my husband i am on a leash. yes it gets attention, it gets comments and for the most part there hasnt been any negitive reactions, aside from one guy who actually tried to unlock the collar and remove the leash because it didnt fit into how he though a woman should be treated. are we wrong for doing this? i dont think so. its not sexual in any and we arnt hurting anyone, like so many of the other posters have said, its like holding hands. nothing more.

domiguy -> RE: Master and pet banned from the bus (1/26/2008 11:28:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Th3AbbyNormal well, after reading this im somewhat saddened, little confused and wondering what the big deal was all about. she was one a leash, why is that so hard for the bus driver guy to understand. whenever im out in public with my husband i am on a leash. yes it gets attention, it gets comments and for the most part there hasnt been any negitive reactions, aside from one guy who actually tried to unlock the collar and remove the leash because it didnt fit into how he though a woman should be treated. are we wrong for doing this? i dont think so. its not sexual in any and we arnt hurting anyone, like so many of the other posters have said, its like holding hands. nothing more. I'm sorry, if you view walking around an adult woman on a leash as the equivalent as "holding hands" then I would imafine that Gor is just another planet in the solar system.....Common sense. People. Common sense.

brainiacsub -> RE: Master and pet banned from the bus (1/26/2008 7:53:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark This is Darcy The couple involved have just appeared on the Jeremy Vine radio show on BBC Radio 2, and I caught the last fifteen minutes of their interview as I was driving. They came across as intelligent, articulate people, who were somewhat surprised by the attention their complaint has caused. Far from being the benefit scrounging wastrels that the media would have you believe, she is actually at college, and he is about to start a course to become a community carer, working with the disabled and disadvantaged children. (All of which may be merely good PR, of course, but if so then they certainly talked a good talk) Re the lifestyle, however, they struck me as being into the lifestyle for the 'image' rather than the way of life. The girl described herself as submissive, yet the boy is the one who does all the cooking, cleaning, and other tasks that for me would be encompassed by the whole 'service' ethos. As a humourous aside, she also claimed to be heavily into gothic music, but had no idea who Joy Division were when Vine raised the point. [:D] Overall, they appeared to be a pleasant couple, who have done nothing particularly wrong. In fact, when I was younger I used to go out in spandex trousers, and I suggest that the sight of a collar and leash is infinitely less disturbing that my extremely visible schlong bulge was [;)] Darcy, I'm sorry it took so long to reply, but I have been very busy as of late. I see both you and the.dark have responded. Now I feel like I am being double-teamed. [image]http://www.collarchat.com/micons/m11.gif[/image] For the sake of expediency, I'll reply to you both here. First, let me say that I regret having used the word idiot when chastizing these kids for their behavior. the.dark said they were naive so I'll go with that. The idiot label has shifted the focus away from the issue and turned peoples attention and energy to defending these kids character or otherwise trying to paint them in a more favorable light. It's unimportant. Who they are is irrelevent. What they did is the issue here. Darcy, they could be William and Harry and it wouldn't make a difference. As for the rest, it's exhausting how circular the argument has become. It doesn't seem to matter what I say or how many times I rephrase it, the question keeps being regurgitated back to me in terms of who is right, wrong, or to blame. I have never taken this postition, but instead have chosen to frame my argument in terms of consequences and responsibility. In the vanilla world, for a woman to be led around by a leash is dehumanizing and degrading. If one is going to display this behavior in public - right or wrong, it makes no difference - then one must be prepared to accept the consequences - right or wrong - including ridicule, ostrisization, marginalization, among other things. I am not making statements or judgements as to whether the behavior or the consequences is right or wrong, except where either breaks the law, such as with assault. It may not be fair or just, but it is a fact of living in modern but not always progressive societies. Once again, the.dark, my position is not to blame the victim. From where I stand, there were no victims or villians, only participants. If you two, or anybody else, feels comfortable walking among the vanilla being led by a leash, then more power to you. But, it is unreasonable to expect universal acceptance of this behavior. Now, the spandex trousers with the schlong, bulge, well...that is just rude.[image]http://www.collarchat.com/micons/m11.gif[/image]

brainiacsub -> RE: Master and pet banned from the bus (1/26/2008 8:06:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub Social acceptance of something new is never a painless path. People, as a group, hate change. But this thread just keeps running around the point: If you are different, you deserve what you get and I've got some questions that haven't been answered... 1) If one of my vanilla friends wore a collar and leash because it appealed to them as an accessory and they were treated the same, would they also be idiots exposing the public to a kink? If not, why is it impossible for us to also wear these items as a fashion accessory? I have already answered this in response to GreedyTop. Again, I am not so certain this couple would have drawn the ire of the bus driver if the leash had been dangling from her neck as opposed to being led like an animal (in the publics view, not mine). quote: 2) For various reasons (none including anything so interesting as making a statement), I recently dyed my hair an unnatural color. That makes me different from the social norms, at least around here. I used to have a lot of piercings. If the sight of these things offends someone, should I be kept off a bus and called freak? I mean, if the logic here is that "different from the norm means you deserve what you get"... That is not the logic I argued. It's not about what you deserve, it's about anticipating consequences (again, see my response to Darcy). But, bizarre hair color and piercings are not so outside the norm in most metropolitan areas. You may be denied service in Quitman, Ms if you tried to board a bus there. Again, right or wrong, it is a consequence you accept when you step so outside the social norm as to make others feel uncomfortable or threatened.

brainiacsub -> RE: Master and pet banned from the bus (1/26/2008 8:10:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 quote: Asher, can I ask you something? Is there nothing you find objectionable for public consumption? Think beyond kink for a moment. And forget the obvious, like criminal or violent behavior, gratuitous cruelty, and things of that nature. Is there nothing that would shock you or give you pause if you accidently saw it? If you can imagine anything that would not be appropriate (that is within the law), is it so hard to accept that others may find things objectionable as well, such as kink? In other words, is it your position that any behavior/dress within the law should be acceptable? If not, how do you propose that we establish boundaries and guidelines for public display/consumption? Is it your contention that there exists the inalienable right of the individual not to be offended? No. My argument has nothing to do with 'rights.'

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