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Feelings of Worth - 8/31/2005 12:56:55 AM   
ProtagonistLily


Posts: 1222
Joined: 12/27/2004
Status: offline 		I was reading the thread down a ways entitled "Feelings of Worthlessness" and decided maybe we should talk about feeling good about ourselves.

It is not a pre-requisite to feel worthless because you are a submissive. For me, an ideal situation is being owned. Most people want to own things that are nice, that other people notice. If I want a car, I want the nicest car I can get, not a rust-bucket.

I never confused feelings of low self esteem with submissiveness. I never felt like I had to be dirt in order to be submissive. I'm intelligent, well read and a good conversationalist. I never dummy down for the Doms. I feel that those and other traits I have are valuable, and the man who is attracted to me will be so because they are valueable.

I have worth as a person who is submissive. My Sir values me as his property. He chose me because I was more than just into BDSM. It is my responsibility to be the best person I can be, to reflect well as his. To do otherwise drops my stock a great deal, and not only would I not want to do that to Him, I wouldn't want to do that to myself.

Submissiveness does not equal garbage. If you feel worthless, then find out why and get some help to feel better.

_____________________________

"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind"
~Dr. Seuss~
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RE: Feelings of Worth - 8/31/2005 1:06:24 AM   
brightspot


Posts: 3052
Status: offline 		Well said Lily.... And I am Proud to say...I agree with you and feel
as Rich about my submissiveness!

I also dare say...So does MsN!

*Brightspot

_____________________________

"Comedy is NOT Pretty!" ~Peter Nelson

But..."May at Least One person have a sense of Humor!" ~KML.

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(in reply to ProtagonistLily)
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RE: Feelings of Worth - 8/31/2005 6:17:45 AM   
mossy


Posts: 189
Joined: 2/21/2005
Status: offline 		Yes i wholeheartly agree with you both. i used to think being a submissive meant being less then somehow. Now i walk tall and proud. Worth is something only i can give or take away from myself. Ownership for me will be different with my next master whomever He shall be. Because i will choose One that encourages/supports me to feel great self-worth.

_____________________________

~~inner peace & mental clarity~~

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RE: Feelings of Worth - 8/31/2005 6:23:12 AM   
ridergn


Posts: 11
Joined: 7/21/2005
Status: offline 		Couldn't agree more with everything that has been said. There is a sense of purpose in submissivness. If you feel worthless then there surely is no purpose and that is NOT what a good relationship should be about

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RE: Feelings of Worth - 8/31/2005 6:29:39 AM   
slavedesires


Posts: 669
Joined: 3/2/2004
Status: offline 		Worthiness and worthlessness should never be equated to submission or domianance...the operative word is should.
It is a human thing, a self thing. No one can give you your sense of worth it is something we do for ourelves. i think taht was pointed out on the other thread.
The fact that someone believes in your value improves ones sense of self worth.

It is always an awesome thing to know someone believes in you, the core of you, no matter what.

~~shy

_____________________________

i speak only my personal opinion, sometimes O/ours.

"i am the keeper of fragile things and i have kept what is indisolvable."
....the greatest gift.....vulnerability

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RE: Feelings of Worth - 8/31/2005 6:39:33 AM   
Hissweetshiv


Posts: 200
Joined: 6/24/2005
Status: offline 		Well said lily! If i may be permitted a generalization, submissives as a class are strong intelligent people - more so than many realize. It's nice to hear someone else who is fully aware of their good points, rather than the usual "i'm dirt i'm not worthy" post. Bravo!

_____________________________

"Put your big girl panties on and deal with it."

"Forget love...i'd rather fall in chocolate."


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RE: Feelings of Worth - 8/31/2005 8:07:38 AM   
ProtagonistLily


Posts: 1222
Joined: 12/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Well said lily! If i may be permitted a generalization, submissives as a class are strong intelligent people - more so than many realize. It's nice to hear someone else who is fully aware of their good points, rather than the usual "i'm dirt i'm not worthy" post. Bravo!


Indeed! We run organizations, organize events, win events, etc. It takes a good deal of internal fortitude in a group setting (think bdsm organization) when the Doms are around thinking that they are making all the rules for a sub to say "Well, I understand why you might want to set a St. Andrews Cross 7 feet in the air suspeded by a winch but...." ~grin~

Lily

_____________________________

"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind"
~Dr. Seuss~

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RE: Feelings of Worth - 8/31/2005 8:32:31 AM   
EmeraldSlave2


Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hissweetshiv

Well said lily! If i may be permitted a generalization, submissives as a class are strong intelligent people - more so than many realize. It's nice to hear someone else who is fully aware of their good points, rather than the usual "i'm dirt i'm not worthy" post. Bravo!

For me subs are just like everyone else, some are strong, capable, comptent, secure. Some are scared, weak, rife with insecurities and co-dependent.

Most people are very strong in some areas ans really bad in others. Subs are no different.

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RE: Feelings of Worth - 8/31/2005 8:40:16 AM   
ProtagonistLily


Posts: 1222
Joined: 12/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

For me subs are just like everyone else, some are strong, capable, comptent, secure. Some are scared, weak, rife with insecurities and co-dependent.

Most people are very strong in some areas ans really bad in others. Subs are no different.


Ok, fair play to you. And you are right. But don't you think that there's a pathology running around that allows some submissives to feel they must feel worthless, that they are common dirt?

I have no argument with differant personalities. I think that those of us who are strong and those of us who are more delicate can both feel they have worth.

I'm certainly not saying that submissives who are more demure are in some fashion doing so out of an innate need to be treated or feel like dirt. What I am saying is that you hear a lot of women, especially on these boards, talk about feeling worthless. It alarms me when the "Worthless" thread gets 101 responses with 1500+ hits and the topic of Worthiness gets 9 responses and 63 hits.

< Message edited by ProtagonistLily -- 8/31/2005 8:43:15 AM >

_____________________________

"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind"
~Dr. Seuss~

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RE: Feelings of Worth - 8/31/2005 8:59:57 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

It alarms me when the "Worthless" thread gets 101 responses with 1500+ hits and the topic of Worthiness gets 9 responses and 63 hits.


ah, but you failed to start your thread with some innane psycho-babble theory you just picked up from your Psych 101 class! politics, religion, psychoanalytic theory and the "difference between sub and slave" issues seem to always get discussed ad nauseum.

this slave, for one, appreciates your effort to spread joy and discuss the positive!!! and for the record, this slave does not and has not felt worthless because of past emotional trauma OR from her position in an M/s relationship.

(in reply to ProtagonistLily)
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RE: Feelings of Worth - 8/31/2005 9:03:34 AM   
ProtagonistLily


Posts: 1222
Joined: 12/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

quote:

It alarms me when the "Worthless" thread gets 101 responses with 1500+ hits and the topic of Worthiness gets 9 responses and 63 hits.

ah, but you failed to start your thread with some innane psycho-babble theory you just picked up from your Psych 101 class! politics, religion, psychoanalytic theory and the "difference between sub and slave" issues seem to always get discussed ad nauseum.

this slave, for one, appreciates your effort to spread joy and discuss the positive!!! and for the record, this slave does not and has not felt worthless because of past emotional trauma OR from her position in an M/s relationship.


Beth, you rock girl!

I've met Beth IRL and she's the real deal and so is her Master.

_____________________________

"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind"
~Dr. Seuss~

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: Feelings of Worth - 8/31/2005 10:02:04 AM   
CitizenCane


Posts: 349
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ProtagonistLily

It alarms me when the "Worthless" thread gets 101 responses with 1500+ hits and the topic of Worthiness gets 9 responses and 63 hits.


Well, you didn't allow equal time, for one thing.

I go with Emerald on this one, but I'd add that self-worth issues do seem to polarize in submissives. I note a lot of self-identified 'strong' submissives and a lot who exhibit many signs of a serious self-esteem deficit. There appear to be fewer with run-of-the-mill low-grade anxieties on this subject, but that might be because those don't feel any pressure to discuss the topic one way or the other. And that possibility suggests that perhaps many of the 'strong' submissives do have issues that they're compensating for- not unlike swaggering uber-doms. Just speculation- there's no reliable data base.

As for the relationship between low self-worth and submission, I don't think it's a positive one. In my observation, anything in the way of 'voluntary' submission is much more difficult for subs with low self-esteem- their underlying perspective is fearful and defensive. But then, any style of intimate interaction with persons with extremely low self-worth is problematic.
I think that comfortable submission requires a kind of self-assurance and flexibility that goes with a fairly high level of mental health, but I don't know that I'd characterize this as one pole in a strong/weak dichotomy. It's more a question of truly being comfortable with who or what you are than having any particular 'strength' in any given area.

Cane

(in reply to ProtagonistLily)
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RE: Feelings of Worth - 8/31/2005 10:54:22 AM   
OnlySheIsWorthy


Posts: 7
Joined: 8/17/2005
Status: offline 		I tend to agree with you Lily. While I'm not 24/7 collared, I am still deeply submissive. I am extremely confident and don't often feel down on myself at all. I am an exceptionally strong and willful woman, and it takes my exceptionally strong husband to dominate me. Though, I've never been particularly materialistic, I appreciate your sentiments on knowing that master owns something nice, that he's enjoying the finer things in life. I most certainly am not garbage. And, speaking for many submissives I've met on this site, neither are any of you. You are beautiful women, with intelligence to back it up. To so many I have met, most dom/mes would be lucky to have you.


See below. I didn't write this. Are you all laughing yet?

< Message edited by OnlySheIsWorthy -- 8/31/2005 11:04:53 AM >

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RE: Feelings of Worth - 8/31/2005 10:59:40 AM   
NakedOnMyChain


Posts: 2431
Joined: 11/29/2004
From: Indiana
Status: offline 		Alright, my bad. The above post is actually from me. I posted it from my husband's account on accident. He never posts, so I didn't realize he was logged in. Oops. The above statement would sound kind of off coming from him.

_____________________________

"Oh, it's torture, but I'm almost there."
~The Cure

"I ask for so little. Just fear me, love me, do as I say, and I will be your slave."
~The Labyrinth

(in reply to OnlySheIsWorthy)
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RE: Feelings of Worth - 8/31/2005 11:40:46 AM   
EmeraldSlave2


Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ProtagonistLily
Ok, fair play to you. And you are right. But don't you think that there's a pathology running around that allows some submissives to feel they must feel worthless, that they are common dirt?

I wouldn't call it a pathology, but there's certainly common patterns in most Ds relationships that lends itself to such easily.

Remember- scared people are people who are easy to control. A lot of focus on Ds is about being in control. The scares subs want doms to control them so they can feel secure, doms find it easy to control someone scared.

More than anything I see most subs as control freaks and perfectionists. What other personal relationship do people get into where they do something correct 99 times but that LAST time they do it wrong and they get punished for it? What other personal relationship exists where the priary REASON for the relationship is so that one person can serve and be pleasing to the other? I think this is why so many subs want a vanilla core of love and devotion as the REASON for the relationship, with service and pleasing being how they express their love, it makes things a lot easier to be secure when there's an emotional tie.

quote:

It alarms me when the "Worthless" thread gets 101 responses with 1500+ hits and the topic of Worthiness gets 9 responses and 63 hits.

It alarms me too, this is why when I see so much crying of "Not a doormat!" and then immediately turning around and asking "can I really say no to a dom at a club?" I try and point out the problems there.

Again I think most of us are just normal people trying to do what we can. I think a lot of newbie subs ARE acting like hormone crazed fantasy eyed teens and they either (hopefully) wake up to it slowly and rationally, or (more often) got jolted out of their haze and run away, very disillusioned.

The only thing to do is just keep putting good info out there, be supportive but NOT coddling, be sympathetic but NOT relinquishing of responsibility. And making sure that people hear messages just like this one- submission isn't about not being or becoming worthy, you have to find worth in yourself no matter who you are.

(in reply to ProtagonistLily)
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RE: Feelings of Worth - 8/31/2005 11:42:36 AM   
EmeraldSlave2


Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NakedOnMyChain

Alright, my bad. The above post is actually from me. I posted it from my husband's account on accident. He never posts, so I didn't realize he was logged in. Oops. The above statement would sound kind of off coming from him.

LOL but I love the irony of a dom with the name "Onlysheisworthy" posting on a topic called "Feelings of worth"

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RE: Feelings of Worth - 8/31/2005 11:59:44 AM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline 		nevermind

- LA

< Message edited by LadyAngelika -- 8/31/2005 12:02:26 PM >

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

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RE: Feelings of Worth - 8/31/2005 12:15:05 PM   
NakedOnMyChain


Posts: 2431
Joined: 11/29/2004
From: Indiana
Status: offline 		LOL. Can you tell I'm great with computers?

_____________________________

"Oh, it's torture, but I'm almost there."
~The Cure

"I ask for so little. Just fear me, love me, do as I say, and I will be your slave."
~The Labyrinth

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)
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RE: Feelings of Worth - 8/31/2005 12:24:58 PM   
Oumae


Posts: 911
Joined: 1/4/2005
Status: offline 		I have worth and want someone who has worth too.

Oumae

_____________________________

Is cuma le fear na mbrog ca leagann se a chos.
( The man with the boots does not mind where he places his foot)

(in reply to ProtagonistLily)
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RE: Feelings of Worth - 8/31/2005 2:15:44 PM   
CitizenCane


Posts: 349
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2

Remember- scared people are people who are easy to control. A lot of focus on Ds is about being in control. The scares subs want doms to control them so they can feel secure, doms find it easy to control someone scared.



I think that the sense in which this is right is very limited. A lot depends on how scared people are. People obeying out of fear who aren't very scared, tend not to be all that obedient either. People who are extremely scared can generally be 'controlled' in only rather crude ways- and may freak out, freeze up, or find the first opportunity to bolt. I've never really tried, since it's really not my style, but I suspect sustaining a 'just right' level of fear is a pretty tricky business- people tend to slide in one direction or the other.
Some kinds of fear can be fun, but as a primary motivator in a relationship I don't think it's very effective, never mind the ethical issues.


Cane

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)
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