RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing?

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meatcleaver -> RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? (1/24/2008 1:38:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: samboct Meatcleaver Nope-German unions had more of a stranglehold on German companies- they couldn't outsource although in many areas such as electronics, they desperately wanted to. Outsourcing is not about market pricing, it's about hidden costs. China's costs are lower because they lack environmental standards, human life is cheap, and they respect no one's intellectual property. This is an economics problem and demonstrates that practitioners of that dismal science have screwed up yet AGAIN! (and we all pay for it- ARGGGHH!) China's mfg is NOT more efficient- heck the average efficiency of their coal generating plants is down in the high teens, whereas the average efficiency of US plants is in the mid 30s (Japan is a touch higher). It's also demonstrating that MBAs should stick to sweeping floors and not running businesses (who else can I slam here?) because the idea that you would take your hard won intellectual property (R+D ,. branding etc.) and GIVE IT TO YOUR COMPETITOR to manufacture is utterly idiotic. That most firms persist in doing so shows how lemminglike most businesses are. Sam To say German unions have a strangle hold on German companies is the position of an ideological capitalist. German companies do outsource many lines of products, it is necessary to compete with competition. However, Germany also makes premium products people around the world are willing to pay premium prices for which enables companies to pay for German high paid workers. The fact remains that Germany exports more manufacturing products than the USA with around a quarter of the population. Considering that, US manufacturing should be doing better at home but it isn't. Let's take US cars compared to German cars or Japanese cars, to see an American car (manufactured in the US) on the road here is a rare sight indeed, in fact any product that is manufactured in the US is a rare sight. However, it is not rare to come across German and Japanese products made in their respective countries (they have to label the country of manufacture, not the country of the company), in fact the street and homes are full of them. Both have comparable wage costs to the US. The problem with the US as it is with Britain, they are both fast-buck ideological capitalist cultures, they want a quick profit today at any price even if it comes back and bites them on the arse tomorrow. German business culture like Japan, is far more considered and think in the long term not the short term. Getting back to unions having a stranglehold on German companies, it is probably more correct to say there is a culture of cooperation between the unions and management. Many rights and duties of each side are embeded in German law. The unions made serious entitlement compromises to keep companies manufacturing in Germany with the understanding that if the company has success the work force shares the profits of that success. The German business culture seems to be far more successful for the German worker than the American and British system is for their workers. But then both countries think that union participation in industry is bordering on the resurrection of Karl Marx but such an attitude allows capitalists to cream off profit at the expense of everyone else. You point out that China's costs are lower because they lack environmental standards, human life is cheap, and they respect no one's intellectual property. Well that just about sounds like western capitalism in the 18th and 19th century before the rise of the trade unions and other workerclass organisations. China's mfg is NOT more efficient- heck the average efficiency of their coal generating plants is down in the high teens, whereas the average efficiency of US plants is in the mid 30s No one has said that Chinese manufacturing is more efficient, it is just cheaper. Well not cheaper for the world which will still have to pay for cleaning up all the shit or face the consequences but the real problem is the west's wastefulness and propensity to buy shit, throw it away after a year and go out and buy more shit. Over harvesting and using the planet as a free resource is not a Chinese problem, it is a problem of ideological capitalism. In reality our generation have never had it so good but without a serious change in our attitudes to consumption, our children and grandchildren won't have it so good and where stuff is made will be meaningless.

UtopianRanger -> RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? (1/24/2008 2:38:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger I'm sure you could make a case that it both sets up a framework and facilitates improvements /modernization in that third world country’s infrastructure. But in terms of the market being outsourced, it's ''classic race to the bottom mentality.'' Those in the market being outsourced, are essentially making themselves poorer in order to raise the emerging market up. On the whole, clearly America has become a much poorer nation since it's lost its manufacturing base. - R America, like Britain, has lost its manufacturing base because they weren't making products anyone wanted to buy at the price they wanted. The German economy has recovered through its manufacturing because Germany makes premium products and people are willing to pay premium prices for them. I mentioned this before, Germany exports more manufactured products than the USA does so its not impossible for the US to have a manufacturing base, it just has to make the right products. In the past the US has manufactured products with its home market in mind and on the whole not considered the export market. German companies consider their export market first. If you have a successful export product, the chances are your home market will want it too. That's ridiculous Meat....and you're well aware it. Our machine tool sector, nautical and aeronautics industries were all second to none.....yet they've been outsourced. A close friend of mine that sells industrial-type machinery /equipment out of the SF Bay Area, has calls all day from people overseas looking for Clausing, Cincinnati and Bridgeport milling machines that are over thirty years old because they don't break down and are far more efficient than the junk coming from China. Hell....America's chocolate icon, Hershey, just moved out of its ancestral home in Pennsylvania and down to Mexico. Are you going to tell me there's better quality chocolate being manufactured south of the border? You're well aware of the fact that outsourcing by way of globalization only lives to weaken the labor movement and benefit capital---you're just goading us over the arrogant, ''ugly American'' notoriety that europeans of your age have always been so fond of. [;)] - R

meatcleaver -> RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? (1/24/2008 5:39:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger I'm sure you could make a case that it both sets up a framework and facilitates improvements /modernization in that third world country’s infrastructure. But in terms of the market being outsourced, it's ''classic race to the bottom mentality.'' Those in the market being outsourced, are essentially making themselves poorer in order to raise the emerging market up. On the whole, clearly America has become a much poorer nation since it's lost its manufacturing base. - R America, like Britain, has lost its manufacturing base because they weren't making products anyone wanted to buy at the price they wanted. The German economy has recovered through its manufacturing because Germany makes premium products and people are willing to pay premium prices for them. I mentioned this before, Germany exports more manufactured products than the USA does so its not impossible for the US to have a manufacturing base, it just has to make the right products. In the past the US has manufactured products with its home market in mind and on the whole not considered the export market. German companies consider their export market first. If you have a successful export product, the chances are your home market will want it too. That's ridiculous Meat....and you're well aware it. Our machine tool sector, nautical and aeronautics industries were all second to none.....yet they've been outsourced. A close friend of mine that sells industrial-type machinery /equipment out of the SF Bay Area, has calls all day from people overseas looking for Clausing, Cincinnati and Bridgeport milling machines that are over thirty years old because they don't break down and are far more efficient than the junk coming from China. Hell....America's chocolate icon, Hershey, just moved out of its ancestral home in Pennsylvania and down to Mexico. Are you going to tell me there's better quality chocolate being manufactured south of the border? You're well aware of the fact that outsourcing by way of globalization only lives to weaken the labor movement and benefit capital---you're just goading us over the arrogant, ''ugly American'' notoriety that europeans of your age have always been so fond of. [;)] - R I pointed out in a previous post (though maybe moderation delays my post to the point it's really pointless debating anything but here goes) that Germany can produce premium equipement and sell them at premium prices, allowing a lot of manufacturing to remain in Germany. If they can do that then the US should be able to do that. However, the American business culture is like Britain's, its a fast-buck culture, anything to make a profit today even if it comes back and bites them on the arse. My point wasn't that the US doesn't or didn't make quality products whichever the case maybe, I pointed out that in the past American manufacturers concentrated on their home market rather than the export market, where Germany (and Japan) concentrated first on the export market. American manufacturers didn't design products that people in other countries readily wanted to buy, cars too big and expensive, fridges too big and expensive etc.etc. I guess American outsourcing allows American products to be cheaper, though the irony is, American style fridges are making inroads into the European market but they are made in Korea by Korean companies so that little anecdote shows certain sections of American manufacturing have been sleeping on the job.

SugarMyChurro -> RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? (1/24/2008 5:50:05 AM)
Speak up, man! No one can hear what you are saying! [8\|]

Griswold -> RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? (1/24/2008 8:04:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 quote: ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro I think we are looking to the free markets to resolve all of these issues. [8\|] LadyEllen, you just need to retrain into some kind of higher level brain job for better pay. Yeah, that's the ticket...! [;)] Churro, I do my part, I just don't buy anything that not made in the US anymore. I have $12,000 in a savings account that I add to each month just from not buying cheap plastic crap or clothes that are made in China. I buy good stuff that's made in the U.S.A. and of much higher quality and lasts longer. I haven't been in a Walmart in 5 1/2 years now. People need to start fighting back against these greedy companies by NOT BUYING! Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha....yeah, right. That emachine you just bought? China. "Clues for $500.00 Alex".

DesertRat -> RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? (1/24/2008 9:53:36 AM)
~fast reply~ For me, the best part of overseas outsourcing is the humorous amusement it sometimes provides. It always makes me smile when my customer service call is taken by a guy with a heavy Indian accent who tells me his name is 'Brad'. Funny in a sad way. Bob

samboct -> RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? (1/24/2008 11:14:32 AM)
Meat No need to throw out useless designations (ideological capitalist?- Moi?). I guess my choice of words was more provocative than intended since "stranglehold" does have a negative connotation now that you mention it. Actually, I wish the unions were stronger in this country and probably by extension, Britain, since they played a key role in the success of regulated capitalism that grew out of the excesses of the late 1800s and early 1900s. Marx was right about the destructive nature of capitalism- what he missed was the moderating influence of the unions and the even more destructive system of communism that he proposed. Reagan in this country and Thatcher in Britain did their countrymen no favors by demolishing a system of safeguards against the predatory capitalism that prevailed during the 1700s through the early 1900s that had taken decades to build. Germany has been fortunate that their labor safeguards have proven to be more resilient. (I suspect we agree on this point.) My comment about China though- you misinterpreted. More efficient manufacturing leads to lower production costs. If it doesn't something's wrong. In the case of China- the fact that they can sell what they manufacture more cheaply without more efficient production methodologies means that there is a different business structure which is difficult for any individual company to compete with. What this means is that a totalitarian government is happy to pass along costs to the taxpayer which would be borne in the rest of the capitalist world by the manufacturer. Expecting our companies to compete with this is crazy and is destroying our own economies. Your diatribe that US companies don't make quality products that the rest of the world wants is sorely in error. The US is the worlds largest arms supplier, the worlds largest pharmaceutical mfg (I think this is still true) and the worlds largest supplier of high end chips. as well as the world leader in aerospace. Name a major product that has been sold throughout the world where from the basic R + D through to development took place in China? I certainly can't, can you? I agree that the US and Europe cannot rest on past laurels however, and what I'm aggravated about is that we are failing to invest adequately in R +D for next generation technologies. My comment remains- that China has become such a global economic power has far more to do with the idiocy of Western economists for failing to adequately calculate costs of goods produced with no regard to the environment and business leaders who have no idea of what actually makes their company valuable than any wonderful technological achievements from China. We don't know what China's economy is doing, but when the iron curtain finally fell, what we discovered about Communist countries was that they were in far worse shape than we had thought. I suspect that China is no different. Sam

meatcleaver -> RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? (1/24/2008 12:10:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: samboct Your diatribe that US companies don't make quality products that the rest of the world wants is sorely in error. The US is the worlds largest arms supplier, the worlds largest pharmaceutical mfg (I think this is still true) and the worlds largest supplier of high end chips. as well as the world leader in aerospace. Name a major product that has been sold throughout the world where from the basic R + D through to development took place in China? I certainly can't, can you? I agree that the US and Europe cannot rest on past laurels however, and what I'm aggravated about is that we are failing to invest adequately in R +D for next generation technologies. Samboct I didn't say the US doesn't make quality products, I said the US manufacturing industries concentrates on the home market and we were discussing manufacturing industries but I guess pharmaceuticals could come under that. Yes, you arm one half of the world and often you more or less give the arms away but the R&D is so huge I did once read that the money is never recovered through sales. However, the basic fact is true, according to OCED, Germany exports more manufacturing products (in $) than the USA and it has a quarter of its population. That fact alone suggests American manufacturing is under performing.

Politesub53 -> RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? (1/24/2008 12:25:01 PM)
quote: Name a major product that has been sold throughout the world where from the basic R + D through to development took place in China? Gunpowder quote: the worlds largest supplier of high end chips. Harry Ramsden [8D] quote: as well as the world leader in aerospace Debatable call....Harrier, Concorde, Airbus, Rolls Royce engines.

ottRopesandKnots -> RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? (1/24/2008 12:29:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: marsman I think that outsourcing is one of the causes of the so called "housing credit" problem. If average middle class people do not have good paying jobs, then they cannot pay off large mortgages. Perhaps average middle class people shouldn't be paying off large mortgages, perhaps they should focus instead on average middle sized morgages that they can afford.

MissApprehend -> RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? (1/24/2008 2:58:12 PM)
Perhaps average middle class people shouldn't be paying off large mortgages, perhaps they should focus instead on average middle sized morgages that they can afford. Amen! The average house for an average family in Europe and Latin America is actually an apartment. And guess what? They're not less happy than American families, in fact the opposite is true! They're not slaves to their houses, the kids share rooms and bond, the whole family spends more time together as there's not enough room to spread out and isolate oneself. Large mortgages - i.e. single-family dwellings - are what have brought us urban sprawl, commutes (and pollution), high energy consumption, social isolation, and any number of other social ills. But I'm getting off-topic here. We were talking about overseas outsourcing.

samboct -> RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? (1/24/2008 7:17:53 PM)
PS53 Gunpowder- Good one! Umm, Harry Ramsden is lost on these Yank ears. Would that be a high end Chip and Fish chain? In aircraft-I think in sheer numbers the US aviation industry wins, with Russia in second. In terms of the Harrier- yup brilliant airplane (actually more Rolls Royce brilliant engine and ducting). But I'll raise you an F-14- (a real wonder weapon with that swing wing although a maintenance nightmare). Concorde- 60s technological wonder- we built spyplanes that cruised at Mach 3, the English (and French) built a beautiful passenger aircraft that was very noisy and terribly uneconomical (not very roomy either, but then again, you weren't gonna be in it all that long)- but uncatchable by any fighter aircraft without a head start. But you wanna show me an English spacecraft? Sam

FangsNfeet -> RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? (1/24/2008 7:58:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen So, what’s good about overseas outsourcing? Just a few points. One, outsourcing is good for the owner. It's his business and should have the right to set up shop where evere he damn well chooses in occordiance with the laws of the various lands. Two, outsourcing is apart of competition. Which countries can manufacture the best products at the cheapest prices and labor cost? If you really want a company in your country, then what do you offer those companies that other countries can't? Three. Outsourcing is good for the world economy. More countries and people get to meet and do extra business with one another. These deals help with investments and keep products more affordable for the average consumer. Because of trade, products also become more avalible for all to use.. That's it in a nutshell.

meatcleaver -> RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? (1/25/2008 5:46:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: samboct PS53 Gunpowder- Good one! Umm, Harry Ramsden is lost on these Yank ears. Would that be a high end Chip and Fish chain? In aircraft-I think in sheer numbers the US aviation industry wins, with Russia in second. In terms of the Harrier- yup brilliant airplane (actually more Rolls Royce brilliant engine and ducting). But I'll raise you an F-14- (a real wonder weapon with that swing wing although a maintenance nightmare). Concorde- 60s technological wonder- we built spyplanes that cruised at Mach 3, the English (and French) built a beautiful passenger aircraft that was very noisy and terribly uneconomical (not very roomy either, but then again, you weren't gonna be in it all that long)- but uncatchable by any fighter aircraft without a head start. But you wanna show me an English spacecraft? Sam All this fantastic hardware is fine but what does it earn the US? From what I understand the US doesn't make money on all this military R&D, it costs the US money. Many defence sales are made on such easy terms as to be giving hardware away, paid for with the compliments of the US taxpayer and all the top technology is not for sale anyway so it doesn't help the US in financial terms, it is a drain. Yes, no doubt there are spin offs but who gets the pay off, the American taxpayer who paid for the R&D? I doubt it. The reason why many European countries buy US military aircraft is not because the US makes the best (which they largely do) but because it is cheaper to buy off the shelf than develop ones own. Britain and France have on several occasions discussed sharing costs on developing various systems of their own but rejected the idea as being too draining on their economies and went for buying off the shelf. It is one of the reasons why everyone in western Europe has health cover and many Americans don't. So despite the US's impressive military industrial complex, a lot of it is largely a drain on the US economy and doesn't increase its export earning that much which is why Germany exports more than the US I guess. I'm no expert but I keep checking and I'm right in saying Germany exports more manufactured products than the US. http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_exp-economy-exports http://www.tralac.org/scripts/content.php?id=2144

samboct -> RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? (1/25/2008 6:28:53 AM)
Fangs If outsourcing were based on trade and fair competition- I'd agree with you, because those are the arguments for free trade- and they tend to work pretty well. But outsourcing hasn't been free trade. 1) Outsourcing often involves going to countries without rigorous legal protections or a working legal system. This involves closing our eyes to various unsavory labor practices that were outlawed in the civilized world after the excesses of the 1800s and early 1900s to whit- child labor, sweatshops, criminal labor and the aforementioned pollution and lack of IP prevalent in China- pollution which does not respect national boundaries. Does this matter? Well, most of the particulate matter in the LA basin is now Chinese in origin. If these plants which emitted this amount of soot were located in this country- they'd be getting slapped with lawsuits and cease and desist orders from the EPA and OSHA. 2) Again- unregulated capitalism doesn't foster competition-it build monopolies instead. Try reading some history or play the game of Monopoly as an example. 3) Driving down labor costs is good for the world's economy? Gee, maybe you think that invading Iraq was a good idea too? Again, try doing some reading or independent thinking for a change. Henry Ford showed that by paying his workers what was then double the prevailing wage- he got lots of people banging on his doors looking for work (thousands) and these workers could afford the cars he was building. Then they could afford to send their kids to college too which really did raise the wealth of the country- not creating robber barrons. Can the workers in China even afford a crummy TV set that they're building? Are their kids going to be any better off? I kinda doubt it. bear in mind that you are complicit in the oppression of these workers by your purchases. While the "intelligentsia" dismiss manufacturing as a source of wealth- it's the only thing that separates us from being cavemen. Sam

Politesub53 -> RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? (1/25/2008 7:42:43 AM)
I think globalisation is here to stay. We will always have outsourcing where cheaper labour markets are available. The downside of moving factories abroad is a loss os manufacturing jobs and eventually the skills that went with them. The upside is cheaper goods and new markets becoming available. Germany are the worlds biggest exporters, mainly due to the new Eastern European markets. It remains to be seen as how long this remains the case though, as sooner or later the other EU countries will start trading there too. Sam, you are correct about the chips, if only you wouldnt call them fries ! As for space travel, what about the Tardis ? [8D]

popeye1250 -> RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? (1/25/2008 8:12:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: samboct Fangs If outsourcing were based on trade and fair competition- I'd agree with you, because those are the arguments for free trade- and they tend to work pretty well. But outsourcing hasn't been free trade. 1) Outsourcing often involves going to countries without rigorous legal protections or a working legal system. This involves closing our eyes to various unsavory labor practices that were outlawed in the civilized world after the excesses of the 1800s and early 1900s to whit- child labor, sweatshops, criminal labor and the aforementioned pollution and lack of IP prevalent in China- pollution which does not respect national boundaries. Does this matter? Well, most of the particulate matter in the LA basin is now Chinese in origin. If these plants which emitted this amount of soot were located in this country- they'd be getting slapped with lawsuits and cease and desist orders from the EPA and OSHA. 2) Again- unregulated capitalism doesn't foster competition-it build monopolies instead. Try reading some history or play the game of Monopoly as an example. 3) Driving down labor costs is good for the world's economy? Gee, maybe you think that invading Iraq was a good idea too? Again, try doing some reading or independent thinking for a change. Henry Ford showed that by paying his workers what was then double the prevailing wage- he got lots of people banging on his doors looking for work (thousands) and these workers could afford the cars he was building. Then they could afford to send their kids to college too which really did raise the wealth of the country- not creating robber barrons. Can the workers in China even afford a crummy TV set that they're building? Are their kids going to be any better off? I kinda doubt it. bear in mind that you are complicit in the oppression of these workers by your purchases. While the "intelligentsia" dismiss manufacturing as a source of wealth- it's the only thing that separates us from being cavemen. Sam If we started "in-sourcing" lawyers from India and that was causing lawyer's billable hourly rates to plummet in the U.S. the lawyers in Washington would put a stop to that immediately! Same thing for doctors. The AMA's lobbyists would be incensed! But it's "ok" to do it to working class and middle class people? I don't understand how dropping people's salaries so that they can have "cheap consumer goods" is a "good" thing for anyone. How many or how much "cheap consumer goods" does the average person need anyway? And, these are not "trade deals", they're "out-sourcing" deals disguised as trade deals. I think it's time that we started to deny those companies access to our markets. Why do they feel the need to sell it in Western countries when we're less than a billion people? Don't you think they'd want to sell their products to the more than 5 billion other people? One thing I noticed is that furniture companies and stores are selling furniture that was made in Thailand for the same price as furniture made in the U.S.A.! So, they're OBVIOUSLY not "passing along the savings to the consumer." And when you look carefully at that furniture it's of very low quality! Hey, if those companies want to make their stuff overseas fine, then let them sell it overseas. They need to get a good dose of "Free Trade" themselves! Let them open some stores on the African Savanahs. Or maybe open a Lexus Dealership in Port O Prince, Haiti.

meatcleaver -> RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? (1/25/2008 8:13:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 Germany are the worlds biggest exporters, mainly due to the new Eastern European markets. It remains to be seen as how long this remains the case though, as sooner or later the other EU countries will start trading there too. You have to have something to export to the new eastern markets, Germany is there because of the geography but also they have an industrial base with infra-structure products east Europe wants. Britain doesn't have a great deal to sell anymore, certainly nothing much for rebuilding infrastructure such as trains and buses etc. Britain imports them from Germany (and Italy!). most of Britain's manufactering products are large scale plant, things that are usually negotiated for on a government level and there are rules inter-governmental agreements in the EU which make governmental intervention difficult. France is about the only other country that could take a large scale advantage as it still does have an industrial base and infra-structure products east Europe wants. However, France seem slow at making inroads into the east European markets and countries that get into a market first, usually have a long term advantage over their rivals. Germany is in east Europe for a long time, literally, as German manufacturers have been building factories all over the place. No sign of British penetration though.

samboct -> RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? (1/25/2008 8:23:48 AM)
PS 53 I'm not sure that outsourcing is here to stay- it's an idiotic business mantra, and these things tend to go in cycles. I still remember in the 80s where after massive layoffs, stock prices would go up since businesses were becoming "leaner". My take was that they were being bled to death, and I think in hindsight, this viewpoint was largely correct. In mfg products which require less human input such as chipmaking (not the edible kind- and are English chips edible? I must admit, vinegar on the damn things doesn't work for me.) where labor is down to 10% of the cost, moving factories is stupid. It's an asinine competitive position. As robotics increases, I suspect we're going to need a more highly educated workforce in mfg, not less, but we will need fewer humans per unit of GDP. Some industries will always look for cheap labor such as clothing (although high end textiles also require high end R + D) but as transport costs increase (cost of oil increasing for the foreseeable future and shipping is going to be really hard to do with something other than oil- the only other apparent choice is nuclear, and that's pretty expensive. Conversely biodiesel may work- but that's a digression....) distances will become more critical to costs. Meat- Your conjecture that the US military establishment is largely paid for by the tax payer is interesting and I think correct. The flip side of the argument about exporting arms is what would happen with the second rank US stuff? From the taxpayers perspective- better to sell it off and at least recoup some of the costs rather than just junk it. Typically though, aircraft mfg have made money on export sales- Lockheed certainly did on things like the F-104 which was sold in larger numbers for export rather than domestic use. On the other hand, big chunks of the US military are NOT exported, such as submarines and surface ships (at least for the most part). But I'll wholeheartedly agree that the US military is terribly bloated, inefficient, and a drain on the country economically- and paradoxically weakens the country rather than strengthening it. A smaller standing military would have reduced the appeal of going into silly foreign ventures such as Iraq- exactly what the founders of the country worried about. Yes, those guys may be long dead- but even after centuries, they've got a hell of a lot more brains than the imbecile in the White House. Sam

SugarMyChurro -> RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? (1/25/2008 8:27:15 AM)
FangsNfeet: If you refer to individuals doing business as themselves then I would think that some patriotic desire to serve and hire from the local economy would be in order. I wouldn't want a neighbor that wanted to send all my money offshore. Keep it simple. Keep it local. If you refer to corporations then I think you show a fundamental ignorance of the underlying social contract that should govern the activities of all corporations. Corporations are created as legal fictions to serve a public good: to provide a particular kind of goods or service, to hire from the community, to give back some profits in the way of taxes, etc. If corporations are just going to offshore then I suggest they go create themselves in China or wherever and leave us well out of the equation. They don't need us, we don't need them. Fuck 'em! It's quid pro quo or nothing. Seriously, I buy local and American (and sometimes European) as often as I can because I do actually care that my money goes to people with values approximately like my own. And sure, the appalling labor conditions of some countries is a concern, but not my primary concern. I care that my money supports my neighbors and our closest allies. I consider myself politically radical, but I don't know what explains the desire to do business with countries that are communistic totalitarian states. I guess for most people $$$=God. Great set of values there. [8\|]

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