RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? (Full Version)

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LadyEllen -> RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? (1/25/2008 8:33:48 AM)

Here's something I cant get over - we in the UK have huge reserves of coal we dont mine, because its cheaper to import foreign coal for our power stations etc. The following is for illustration only and the figures are equally illustrative.

And yes, the prices per tonne are different. The difference being presumably made up by the additional labour costs to mine it here, and such annoyance factors as providing as safe a working environment as possible, which isnt such a concern elsewhere perhaps.

The mines here employed thousands and were pretty efficient at extracting and delivering coal - we always had the lights on after all, apart from when the miners went on strike. And electricity was no more expensive then that is now.

But, lets say a tonne of foreign coal costs £200-00, and a tonne of UK coal costs £500-00 - clear incentive to buy from overseas, except that by doing so and closing one of our own mines we throw (say) a thousand workers onto unemployment benefits. Each former worker then costs the country around £300-00 per week to keep on the dole, taking into consideration all the benefits that could be acquired. This is then a total cost to the country of £300,000-00 per week.

If those thousand former miners produced 1000 tonnes of coal per week at £500-00 per tonne then the original cost for those 1000 tonnes was £500,000-00 and now, replaced with the foreign coal the cost is £200,000-00 - except of course that once we add in the cost of paying unemployment benefits the cost to the country is also £500,000-00.

The government has to raise taxes to pay that £300,000-00 extra each week for the former miners' unemployment benefits, and this is recovered from those remaining in work and those companies remaining in business - each of which suffers and each of which is ever more likely to go under in the face of overseas competition as a result. Cue further job losses and further outsourcing in mining for the rest to keep pace with the competition - a vicious cycle. Meanwhile, the cost of the electricity generated from the coal remains the same.

Only the power company won - everyone else suffered.

And this is why I cant get my head around why outsourcing is such a good thing for we mere mortals, or for our countries as a whole?

E



SugarMyChurro -> RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? (1/25/2008 8:46:39 AM)

Right, because it isn't a benefit to anyone but the snake corporations that want to ignore the underlying social contract for which reason corporations are even allowed to exist and do business as entities with limited liability for debt. The unspoken cost of that benefit is to do business with the local economy by hiring from the local labor pool, paying local taxes, and providing some general benefits to the society from which the corporation arises.






popeye1250 -> RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? (1/25/2008 8:47:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Here's something I cant get over - we in the UK have huge reserves of coal we dont mine, because its cheaper to import foreign coal for our power stations etc. The following is for illustration only and the figures are equally illustrative.

And yes, the prices per tonne are different. The difference being presumably made up by the additional labour costs to mine it here, and such annoyance factors as providing as safe a working environment as possible, which isnt such a concern elsewhere perhaps.

The mines here employed thousands and were pretty efficient at extracting and delivering coal - we always had the lights on after all, apart from when the miners went on strike. And electricity was no more expensive then that is now.

But, lets say a tonne of foreign coal costs £200-00, and a tonne of UK coal costs £500-00 - clear incentive to buy from overseas, except that by doing so and closing one of our own mines we throw (say) a thousand workers onto unemployment benefits. Each former worker then costs the country around £300-00 per week to keep on the dole, taking into consideration all the benefits that could be acquired. This is then a total cost to the country of £300,000-00 per week.

If those thousand former miners produced 1000 tonnes of coal per week at £500-00 per tonne then the original cost for those 1000 tonnes was £500,000-00 and now, replaced with the foreign coal the cost is £200,000-00 - except of course that once we add in the cost of paying unemployment benefits the cost to the country is also £500,000-00.

The government has to raise taxes to pay that £300,000-00 extra each week for the former miners' unemployment benefits, and this is recovered from those remaining in work and those companies remaining in business - each of which suffers and each of which is ever more likely to go under in the face of overseas competition as a result. Cue further job losses and further outsourcing in mining for the rest to keep pace with the competition - a vicious cycle. Meanwhile, the cost of the electricity generated from the coal remains the same.

Only the power company won - everyone else suffered.

And this is why I cant get my head around why outsourcing is such a good thing for we mere mortals, or for our countries as a whole?

E


LadyE, good example.
As we can see, outsourcing is good for companies, not for "The People."
If it were good for "The People" companies wouldn't be lobbying governments for it would they?
I think it's funny in a way that these companies want to half people's salaries but then they expect us to keep buying their products.
I mean how long do they think that that can continue?



meatcleaver -> RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? (1/25/2008 9:10:12 AM)

General Point
 
In regard to the what appears to be the general opinion that China makes shoddy goods, I'm old enough to remember when Japanese products were once generally described as Jap-scrap. You can't say that about Japanese products anymore and similarly Korean products are fast improving and becoming more numerous in the west. I don't see why Chinese products will always be perceived as low quality, they have enough educated and skilled people to take China out of the shoddy goods bracket. It seems the case to me that western capitalism is selling its future for bucks today. To paraphrase Lenin, capitalists will sell you the rope you use to hang them with. He obviously didn't mean it in terms of outsourcing but his quote is apt regarding outsourcing. We are teaching other countries how to beat the west at their own game.



popeye1250 -> RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? (1/25/2008 9:48:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Griswold

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

I think we are looking to the free markets to resolve all of these issues.

[8|]

LadyEllen, you just need to retrain into some kind of higher level brain job for better pay.

Yeah, that's the ticket...!

[;)]





Churro, I do my part, I just don't buy anything that not made in the US anymore.
I have $12,000 in a savings account that I add to each month just from not buying cheap plastic crap or clothes that are made in China.
I buy good stuff that's made in the U.S.A. and of much higher quality and lasts longer.
I haven't been in a Walmart in 5 1/2 years now.
People need to start fighting back against these greedy companies by *NOT BUYING!*


Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha....yeah, right.

That emachine you just bought?

China.

"Clues for $500.00 Alex".


Gee, that's funny, I just checked the back of the computer and it says; "Made in Framingham, Mass."



ManInTheBox -> RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? (1/25/2008 11:09:12 AM)

Indeed, the fact of the matter is it doesn't help us at all. It's helps the companies that do it because they get cheaper labor, and the government doesn't really care because those countries still in turn give the government money and if the government has and qualms about it they could just move their headquarters elsewhere. When labor here becomes cheaper than some other places (which the way the economy is right now it may very well start to be) they'll come back. The Globalists arguement and stuff like that about how they're trying to help the less fortunate countries by providing jobs is the same bull crap thing everyone gives as an excuse when they want to move into another country...it's what the US and other major powers did and still do when they go/went into countries. Then while "helping" them they do something for their own benefit as well. There isn't really such a thing as doing something out've the goodness of your own heart anymore...and some philosophers would argue there never was.



popeye1250 -> RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? (1/25/2008 11:20:57 AM)

"Hi, I'm from the government and I'm here to help."



FirmhandKY -> RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? (1/25/2008 1:18:46 PM)

FR:

Well, other than Fangsnfeet, this seems like an anti-globalization love-fest.

Ok, questions before I join in ...

If you are against "outsourcing":

1. Do you believe that all the people in the world should have the same economic and political freedoms?

2. Do you think it would be better if nation states had less power, and that a higher political power than a nation-state should exist, and would be good - overall - for the people of the world ... including  your nation?

3.  Do you believe that it would be better for your nation to totally restrict all foreign imports that had any negative impact on jobs?

4.  Has the overall standard of living gone up or down in your nation, since about 1945?

Firm



LadyEllen -> RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? (1/25/2008 1:44:56 PM)

1) Absolutely. But its not the job of my government to enable that - especially at the expense of our own people. If we can help then we should, but we shouldnt have to make ourselves weaker to help out.

2) Yes and no. Yes because that way we could organise things so that everyone had a fair crack at life and lawful values could be enforced everywhere - but no, because quite frankly there is not a person on this planet (including me) who could be trusted with such power, and since a "World Government" would be made up of people who could not be trusted....

3) No. But we should have the power to put in place tariffs and so on which make the market a more balanced one - Anti Dumping Duties are a must. Our aim must be to ensure the greatest welfare possible of the highest number of our people possible - and we dont do this by allowing cheap imported goods to put our people out of work.

4) This is a strange question. It really depends on how one measures quality of life. I'd say quality of life went up from 1945 (a very low point in the UK at least, following the war) until about the mid 1970s. Thereafter, whilst our economic performance indicators have probably risen, quality of life has not by my measures for any - whether thats those disposessed by economic "development" or those who find themselves working harder and harder to keep pace with the race.

What I dont get is why companies are allowed to do pretty much as they damn well please to further their own ends - but we as countries are forbidden to do exactly the same to the ends of making the lives of our people better. Or rather, I do get it because the way we organise our electoral systems is such that corporations call the shots.

E



popeye1250 -> RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? (1/25/2008 2:12:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

General Point
 
In regard to the what appears to be the general opinion that China makes shoddy goods, I'm old enough to remember when Japanese products were once generally described as Jap-scrap. You can't say that about Japanese products anymore and similarly Korean products are fast improving and becoming more numerous in the west. I don't see why Chinese products will always be perceived as low quality, they have enough educated and skilled people to take China out of the shoddy goods bracket. It seems the case to me that western capitalism is selling its future for bucks today. To paraphrase Lenin, capitalists will sell you the rope you use to hang them with. He obviously didn't mean it in terms of outsourcing but his quote is apt regarding outsourcing. We are teaching other countries how to beat the west at their own game.


Meat, sure you can, the Japanese make junk!
Look at their cars and trucks in cold snowy climates like New England! Rusted out after 5 or 6 years!
I saw more and more of them broken down alongside the highway up there the last few years I lived there.
And don't even start in on those POS Lexus'!
Nice if you don't mind spending $350 to replace a fuel filter or $2,300 for an exhaust system!
And trust me, you WILL be spending a lot of money for repairs on a Lexus!
A friend of mine just bought a Corvette and traded in his Lexus for it.
He said, "I feel sorry for the poor son of a bitch who buys THAT POS!"



NorthernGent -> RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? (1/25/2008 2:12:32 PM)

I think you pick out an atypical example, Ellen.

With regard to manufacturing and heavy industry, generally Britain is less productive than France, Germany and the USA for a variety of reasons; coal was the exception to the rule. Then again, closing the mines was not a matter of perceived productivity, it was about Thatcher smashing working-class institutions and community in order to pave the way for neo-liberalism.

Furthermore, Thatcher aimed to liberalise the labour market, as opposed to "keep former workers on the dole"; you have to give credit where it's due because, by and large, she achieved her vision. Unlike say France and Germany, we can shift workers between sectors to meet demand, and while there are associated negatives, there is certainly one huge positive in today's increasingly competitive world: adaptability. 

Ultimately, unemployment is far lower today (in comparison with the age when the majority of the coal mines were closed down), so your example is flawed by virtue of not placing it within the context of the wider economy.

When all is said and done, success comes from being innovative and allowing people the room to breathe in order to create; it follows, thus, that a liberal take on the economy is better suited to the modern world. You think it's bad today? Wait until the Chinese and the Indians actually have the know-how; it's coming because they're putting ridiculous numbers of people through university, so we're going to have to be full of drive, innovation and energy to compete with their huge resources. Protectionism is not the answer; rather, it's a barrier to the aforementioned qualities that are necessary to succeed.



popeye1250 -> RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? (1/25/2008 2:22:34 PM)

NG, but whenever decent jobs are created by an industry they are just outsourced anyway.
It's not "The People" who were for this "free trade" crap it was business.
I've yet to see "The People" protesting in the streets; "We want more "free trade!"



Politesub53 -> RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? (1/25/2008 2:27:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Then again, closing the mines was not a matter of perceived productivity, it was about Thatcher smashing working-class institutions and community in order to pave the way for neo-liberalism.



Yet again you make it sound as though Thatcher shut down a thriving industry. This wasnt the case though, several factors such as North Sea gas being a "Cleaner " source of energy, and coal in general having less call for it came into effect. That said its true she used the miners strike for political gain, but considering the seventies strikes i cant say i blame her.

Ironically the miners at Tower colliery decided to use their redundancy payments to buy out the pit. They were told mining coal from there was just too uneconomic, although they had a good try, today they went into receivership after 13 years of production.



LadyEllen -> RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? (1/25/2008 2:32:14 PM)

way to miss the point NG! It was an illustration (as I think I pointed out) of the wider effects on the country of allowing and enabling this scenario, designed to show that whilst a very few gain enormously, overall it renders us weaker.

But youre right on your second point - that we will do damned well if we can compete with our "partners". So damned well that most of us will have to take whatever wages are offered for whatever work remains, whilst a very few get incredibly rich. Because, for all the innovation, drive and energy we put in, they can simply copy whatever we innovate and produce it in far higher volumes at far lower costs than we can here. And as long as someone here gets rich off of it, no one will do a damned thing about it.

And I'd like to know, whats wrong with protecting our people? I thought that was a primary responsibility of government?

E



meatcleaver -> RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? (1/25/2008 2:37:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

General Point
 
In regard to the what appears to be the general opinion that China makes shoddy goods, I'm old enough to remember when Japanese products were once generally described as Jap-scrap. You can't say that about Japanese products anymore and similarly Korean products are fast improving and becoming more numerous in the west. I don't see why Chinese products will always be perceived as low quality, they have enough educated and skilled people to take China out of the shoddy goods bracket. It seems the case to me that western capitalism is selling its future for bucks today. To paraphrase Lenin, capitalists will sell you the rope you use to hang them with. He obviously didn't mean it in terms of outsourcing but his quote is apt regarding outsourcing. We are teaching other countries how to beat the west at their own game.


Meat, sure you can, the Japanese make junk!
Look at their cars and trucks in cold snowy climates like New England! Rusted out after 5 or 6 years!
I saw more and more of them broken down alongside the highway up there the last few years I lived there.
And don't even start in on those POS Lexus'!
Nice if you don't mind spending $350 to replace a fuel filter or $2,300 for an exhaust system!
And trust me, you WILL be spending a lot of money for repairs on a Lexus!
A friend of mine just bought a Corvette and traded in his Lexus for it.
He said, "I feel sorry for the poor son of a bitch who buys THAT POS!"


Popeye, it's strange how Japanese cars tend to be found the most reliable cars in most countries in the world.

http://www.gizmag.com/go/5657/   100 most reliable cars in the last decade

1 - Honda Accord - A classy package, well put together and feels more special than the average family car. Superb engines and value for money. 2 - Subaru Forester - Not quite an off roader, much more than an estate with a sporty edge, making it the perfect combination. Great all round buy. 3 - Mazda MX-5 - Blueprint for the modern roadster with sweet handling and engines to match. Extremely easy to live with. 4 - Mitsubishi Carisma - Despite the name, not that interesting to look at or drive, but that’s not the point. Here is a no-nonsense hatchback that won’t let you down. 5 - Toyota Yaris - Superminis don’t come better. Bags of room and perky engines. Probably the best small car buy. 6 - Honda Civic - Solid build quality and good engines are just part of the appeal, the Civic is one of the most spacious small cars around. Great value. 7 - Nissan Almera - A dull package, but that’s no reason to dismiss the Almera which is practical and perfect for the smaller family who need a big boot and utter reliability. 8 - Honda CR-V - Proof that you don’t need an XXXL 4x4. Here is a four-wheel drive estate that is flexible, easy to drive and own. 9 - Toyota RAV4 - So few four-wheel drives are fun to drive. This car is suitably sporty, but very practical. Expensive used buy but worth it. 10 - Nissan Micra - The driving school favourite. Tough, fairly roomy, but with its light controls is easy to steer around town.

http://www.reliabilityindex.co.uk/tophundred.html?apc=3128339010848601

http://www.forbes.com/2006/04/20/reliable-vehicles-japanese_cx_dl_0424feat.html

http://www.fivecentnickel.com/2006/11/16/ten-most-reliable-cars/

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/consumer/article.html?in_article_id=421909&in_page_id=5

http://images.businessweek.com/ss/06/05/reliable_cars/index_01.htm

SUVs http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/23790/reliable_carsknow_good_from_bad.html

Hell there are hundreds of sites (I can't link them all) from lots of countries and they all seem to agree. Japanese cars are consistently the most reliable with various makes from other countries occasionally breaking into the top few.



domiguy -> RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? (1/25/2008 2:40:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

NG, but whenever decent jobs are created by an industry they are just outsourced anyway.
It's not "The People" who were for this "free trade" crap it was business.
I've yet to see "The People" protesting in the streets; "We want more "free trade!"


Great point! Free trade has definitely had a negative impact on many countries ...Look how negatively India has been affected.

It's entertaining to watch those which cannot seem to grasp that we do live in a global economy...There is no going back. It's over. You better position yourself to profit from this event....Blame everything on the outsourcing of jobs and illegal immigration. lol. Those are obviously the only two reasons that this country is on the brink of a serious recession.

I'm looking forward to getting my "kickback" from the government...That should single handedly end the recession...I can go out have a nice dinner or two and fill up my gas tank and maybe buy some groceries....That seems like enough to right any economy....Domiguy to the rescue!



meatcleaver -> RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? (1/25/2008 2:46:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Furthermore, Thatcher aimed to liberalise the labour market, as opposed to "keep former workers on the dole"; you have to give credit where it's due because, by and large, she achieved her vision. Unlike say France and Germany, we can shift workers between sectors to meet demand, and while there are associated negatives, there is certainly one huge positive in today's increasingly competitive world: adaptability. 



Adaptability there might be in the labour market NG but Britain along with the USA (according to a 2006 OCED report) has the lowest social mobility in the developed world, far behind supposedly socially rigid Japan and social democratic north European countries, they even came behind conservative France. Also, when you are counted as unemployed in places like Germany and France, you are really unemployed, unlike Britain which has changed how the unemployment figures are counted so often to make them politically acceptable. I know a lot of people who have never worked since the miners strike yet never appeared as unemployed having been shunted onto the disabled register or retraining for the umpteenth time without a prayer of getting a job they are training for.



domiguy -> RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? (1/25/2008 2:52:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

I think we are looking to the free markets to resolve all of these issues.

[8|]

LadyEllen, you just need to retrain into some kind of higher level brain job for better pay.

Yeah, that's the ticket...!

[;)]





Churro, I do my part, I just don't buy anything that not made in the US anymore.
I have $12,000 in a savings account that I add to each month just from not buying cheap plastic crap or clothes that are made in China.
I buy good stuff that's made in the U.S.A. and of much higher quality and lasts longer.
I haven't been in a Walmart in 5 1/2 years now.
People need to start fighting back against these greedy companies by *NOT BUYING!*


One could take this approach...Maybe they might feel like they are accomplishing something. Then again you might want to purchase only train tickets to try to stop the airlines from getting a foothold upon our transportation.

I really doubt that you can distinguish between "the high quality of American made goods" and those manufactured abroad. You actually might have more money in your savings account by becoming a tad bit more of a savvy shopper.

You are a broken record.

quote:

popeye
Meat, sure you can, the Japanese make junk!
Look at their cars and trucks in cold snowy climates like New England! Rusted out after 5 or 6 years!
I saw more and more of them broken down alongside the highway up there the last few years I lived there.
And don't even start in on those POS Lexus'!
Nice if you don't mind spending $350 to replace a fuel filter or $2,300 for an exhaust system!
And trust me, you WILL be spending a lot of money for repairs on a Lexus!
A friend of mine just bought a Corvette and traded in his Lexus for it.
He said, "I feel sorry for the poor son of a bitch who buys THAT POS!"


You have no concept of what you speak....It is obvious in your mind that the Japanese make crap....Have you looked at the ratings of American cars when compared to other countries? how about electronics? On and on and on...If you continue to watch Lou Dobbs I'm sure you will be content in your ramblings. I have no idea what planet you are living on...But this one has gone global. It's a shame you fail to recognize it. There is no going back. Anyone who thinks that they can undo what has transpired does not have a grasp on reality. It is the future and it is the now...Deal.



Politesub53 -> RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? (1/25/2008 2:52:37 PM)

Not awaiting approval [8D]



FirmhandKY -> RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? (1/25/2008 2:56:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Not awaiting approval [8D]


[sm=biggrin.gif]

I gotta say, even if I did get caught up in the dragnet, I really REALLY like Mod 11's new "get tough" policy!

Firm



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