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RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? - 1/25/2008 2:56:50 PM   
LadyEllen


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[Awaiting Approval Of Posts Awaiting Approval]

Put that whip down and come approve MCs and Domiguys posts XI? Please..........?

I said the site was worth $100-00 a year on that other thread - but did I mention its only because of you?

E

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RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? - 1/25/2008 3:04:20 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Then again, closing the mines was not a matter of perceived productivity, it was about Thatcher smashing working-class institutions and community in order to pave the way for neo-liberalism.



Yet again you make it sound as though Thatcher shut down a thriving industry. This wasnt the case though, several factors such as North Sea gas being a "Cleaner " source of energy, and coal in general having less call for it came into effect. That said its true she used the miners strike for political gain, but considering the seventies strikes i cant say i blame her.

Ironically the miners at Tower colliery decided to use their redundancy payments to buy out the pit. They were told mining coal from there was just too uneconomic, although they had a good try, today they went into receivership after 13 years of production.


The public inquiry into the 1972 miner's strike backed the miners just about 100%. Their pay had seriously diminished compared to other workers. In fact, miners were barely earning more than they earned when the Labour Party came to power in 1963. The inquiry said the miner's demands should be met in full. It was not met in full and that is what led to the 1974 strike. There was a lot of headlines in the Tory press at the time talking about 100 pound a week miners. To earn that you had to live down the mine, a top paid coal face worker was actually earning 45 pounds a week for five shifts and that included unsocial hours. In fact I think you had to be a paramedic and a powderman to get the full whack if I remember rightly.

As for the mines being unprofitable in 1985, they were made unprofitable on paper. Mines were made to pay rent on scrap machinery that they had in their stock yard and all sorts of tricks like that to make many appear unprofitable. Non of this was reported in the press as was none of the police politicization and thuggery that people in mining areas had to endure. Seeing what happened in the miners strike finished me with Britain and comfirmed to me it is run by fucking bunch of fascists supported by a fully paid up media. I've seen nothing comparable in Europe that I saw in the miners strike and Britain thinks its so fucking liberal and free. It ain't. Brits just believe their own publicity.

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RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? - 1/25/2008 3:06:50 PM   
LadyEllen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Meat, sure you can, the Japanese make junk!
Look at their cars and trucks in cold snowy climates like New England! Rusted out after 5 or 6 years!
I saw more and more of them broken down alongside the highway up there the last few years I lived there.
And don't even start in on those POS Lexus'!
Nice if you don't mind spending $350 to replace a fuel filter or $2,300 for an exhaust system!
And trust me, you WILL be spending a lot of money for repairs on a Lexus!
A friend of mine just bought a Corvette and traded in his Lexus for it.
He said, "I feel sorry for the poor son of a bitch who buys THAT POS!"


I'm sorry Popeye, but I have to disagree. Japanese cars perform better and last longer than anything else, apart from the likes of Mercedes and (bizarrely) Lada (Russian, very basic). Over here anyway.

But I will agree that repairs and parts when theyre needed, cost a fortune! Presumably because not so many people buy Japanese cars and so there's not so much of a market?

E

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RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? - 1/25/2008 3:50:53 PM   
Politesub53


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Japanese cars here are reliable now, although its true that originally they were terrible. Remember why Datsun had to change the name to Nissan. To be fair Toyota have usually been pretty good in my experience.

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RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? - 1/25/2008 5:39:17 PM   
SugarMyChurro


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I live pretty close to work (under 10 miles away), so it really doesn't matter what I drive to get there. Most cars do very poorly on street mileage anyway, so...

I drive a Lincoln Continental from a few years ago while I await a vehicle powered entirely by a new technology. Other family members drive a Lexus. I have to admit that the Lexus is basically a super-engineered vehicle in the way of BMW and Mercedes Benz. A Lexus is an absolutely spectacular vehicle, and costs about the same as the other two whenever it needs repairs. So while there are no problems, you will be stunned. When you have problems you will be stunned again!

"A rearview mirror? $600? WTF!"



Someday I will buy this thing:
http://www.aptera.com/

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RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? - 1/25/2008 5:55:49 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

NG, but whenever decent jobs are created by an industry they are just outsourced anyway.
It's not "The People" who were for this "free trade" crap it was business.
I've yet to see "The People" protesting in the streets; "We want more "free trade!"


Popeye, why wouldn't you go for free trade?

This is a board full of people who purport to be disciplined, independent, creative and knowledgable. Assuming this is true, then why do you want the government to step in and protect you from competing interests? The best means of competing with emerging nations is to be innovative, develop tomorrow's products and get to the market first.

If you're good enough to compete, then where's the problem? Quite frankly, I'd like to see a level playing field, and then we can see what's what.

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RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? - 1/25/2008 6:02:02 PM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

So, what’s good about overseas outsourcing?


Free competition for everyone.  Jobs for those most willing to do them.

We live in a rather affluent part of the world, but there's a lot of other humans out there, too.  Free trade may force us to compete more, but, even for us, it does fight inflation.

The developed nations have become increasingly lazy, and it's not just due to efficiency.  People here, at college where I live, literally live off the system.. scholarships, no tax, taking up food, Ph.D's time and energy, land, beautiful and large complexes of buildings, power, and many other things.  And they think they're entitled to waste this time!

And what makes this situation truly sad?  They're typically the hard workers.  Some are so lazy that they just decide the instant gratification of a parttime job doing some trivial chore-like task justifies their existence.

I won't make many friends answering this, but it's true.  Many of us have grown lazy, expecting free handouts from the wealth of past generations and the relative bounty of land that's been spoiled and strains under ever increasing populations.

Do we deserve our wealth, particularly compared to those who will break their backs for a small portion of it?

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RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? - 1/25/2008 6:08:52 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

If you're good enough to compete, then where's the problem? Quite frankly, I'd like to see a level playing field, and then we can see what's what.


Nice point NG, level playing fields would have to be the same restraints on health and safety and no government intervention though.

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RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? - 1/25/2008 6:50:40 PM   
FangsNfeet


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quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

3)  Driving down labor costs is good for the world's economy? Henry Ford showed that by paying his workers what was then double the prevailing wage- he got lots of people banging on his doors looking for work (thousands) and these workers could afford the cars he was building.  Then they could afford to send their kids to college too which really did raise the wealth of the country- not creating robber barrons.  Can the workers in China even afford a crummy TV set that they're building? Are their kids going to be any better off?   I kinda doubt it.  bear in mind that you are complicit in the oppression of these workers by your purchases.  While the "intelligentsia" dismiss manufacturing as a source of wealth- it's the only thing that separates us from being cavemen.

Sam


The people who choose to work set the wages. If you agree to the wage, then you can't bitch about it. That's what strikes, riots, and unions are for. All these poor, back breaking, sweat shop laboring people of China should realize that they can all say "We're not going to work for pennies!" But maybe they take pride in being the cheapest workers in the world.

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RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? - 1/25/2008 6:59:22 PM   
SugarMyChurro


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Are you seriously that ill-informed? They work that way under threat of death, rape, and maiming.


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RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? - 1/25/2008 7:19:33 PM   
FangsNfeet


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

Are you seriously that ill-informed? They work that way under threat of death, rape, and maiming.




I've seen the Chineese riot more than once. They make the L.A. Riots look like ants on the picnic table.

Under threat of death? Hell, either live the life you think you deserve or die fighting for it. Besides, what good would it be to kill all the cheap workers? How would the Chinese government and the Corporations make production demands if they decided to kill all the workers?

Without a doubt, the workers will have a couple of Blair Mountain moments http://www.wvculture.org/hiStory/minewars.html But, if they band together, the workers will get labor/sanatation/wage laws passed in the end.

All they have to do is adopt the Musketeer Code: All for one and one for all! 



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RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? - 1/25/2008 10:28:40 PM   
samboct


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Fangs

Oh please.  So you've got a factory where a bunch of 12 year old kids are making sneakers for a buck a day.  Their option is either starve or work.  You really expect these kids to organize and overthrow something?  Get real....

From my perspective- your viewpoint is a sop to your conscience- you're contorting into a pretzel to try and justify buying the products of sweatshop labor when the reality is that there is no moral justification for doing so.

Sam

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RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? - 1/25/2008 10:37:58 PM   
Griswold


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
Gee, that's funny, I just checked the back of the computer and it says; "Made in Framingham, Mass."


Check again Popeye.

Your computer is made in China.

(Edited to add:  My error...your computer is made in Korea, by Acer, who bought Gateway last year...who bought emachines prior to that).

< Message edited by Griswold -- 1/25/2008 10:52:44 PM >

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RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? - 1/25/2008 10:44:16 PM   
samboct


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Firm

All right- I'll bite.

If you are against "outsourcing":

1. Do you believe that all the people in the world should have the same economic and political freedoms?

Same as the US Bill of Rights- certain minimum guaranteed freedoms would be nice.

2. Do you think it would be better if nation states had less power, and that a higher political power than a nation-state should exist, and would be good - overall - for the people of the world ... including  your nation?

Nope- humans are tribal.  Think global- act local.  Centralized planning was a raging success for the former Soviet Union.

3.  Do you believe that it would be better for your nation to totally restrict all foreign imports that had any negative impact on jobs?

Environmental impact- absolutely.  Jobs impact- depends.  I think the US should stick to its moral compass and repudiate the purchase of sweatshop products.  Conversely, if a company in another country figures out a superior process, then yes, we should be able to purchase these products even if some of our local jobs are lost.  The real task of the gov't is to make sure that we as a nation can replace these lost jobs with better ones. 

4.  Has the overall standard of living gone up or down in your nation, since about 1945?

Down since the 60s- (I was born in 1960)  Medical costs are up astronomically for little benefit (most is spent on the last year of life/dying) leisure time has decreased- middle class is being squeezed further- education costs from a family budget has increased.  Too many tax dollars spent on useless military expenditures, not enough on education- and I'm a firm believer that the real wealth of a nation is measured not in dollars, but in manufacturing capacity- which translates to an educated and adaptable workforce.  When I was born, a middle class lifestyle for a family of four was possible with one income- now it takes two-hence real wages have fallen.  Home ownership is largely unchanged.

Fangs

Get real.  Let's say you've got a bunch of 12 year old kids in a Chinese sweatshop batting out sneakers for a buck a day.  Their choice is either work or starve.  You wanna tell me it's their responsibility to organize?  methinks this position is a sop to your conscience for buying things that you know that you probably shouldn't.  Voting with your dollars is not a bad way of helping to change the world- amazingly, I kind of agree with Popeye on this one.

Sam

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RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? - 1/25/2008 11:30:08 PM   
SugarMyChurro


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Some links to help things along:

http://www.chinalaborwatch.org/en/web/

"Probe Sheds Light on Working Conditions in China"
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/business/july-dec07/china_11-20.html

"U.S. Corporations Work to Prevent Chinese Workers' Rights"
http://mww.alternet.org/stories/43051/?comments=view&cID=256909&pID=255620

"Spirit-Crushing 'McJobs' Are Putting an End to Upward Mobility"
http://www.alternet.org/story/50347/

-----

A telling quote from that last one:
"-- that's any job paying less than $11.11. How many are like that? Forty-four million."

So it sucks for them there, and it sucks for us here. Doesn't that make it a "lose-lose scenario"? The upside is limited to a very few. A very few...

Popeye is absolutely dead on in this one respect: people will eventually not be able to buy certain goods despite the race to the bottom on pricing. At some point that bullshit paying job just doesn't pay well enough for even the crappiest crap from China. And then it all goes bust anyway...


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RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? - 1/26/2008 1:14:37 AM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

NG, but whenever decent jobs are created by an industry they are just outsourced anyway.
It's not "The People" who were for this "free trade" crap it was business.
I've yet to see "The People" protesting in the streets; "We want more "free trade!"


Popeye, why wouldn't you go for free trade?

This is a board full of people who purport to be disciplined, independent, creative and knowledgable. Assuming this is true, then why do you want the government to step in and protect you from competing interests? The best means of competing with emerging nations is to be innovative, develop tomorrow's products and get to the market first.

If you're good enough to compete, then where's the problem? Quite frankly, I'd like to see a level playing field, and then we can see what's what.


NG, that's the problem, we're not "competing" against those "emerging" countries, we're helping them!
We give them foreign aid, access to our markets and all kinds of other things!
They tell us (Big business) that we're "developing new markets."
If your helping someone how is that "competing?"
Whatever happened to; "you don't help your competition?"
The only ones in the "competing game" are working class and now middle class people in the U.S. who get laid off from their jobs while their tax dollars go overseas to foreign aid programs.
On the News last week they had a segment about how college and university guidance councillors are now telling graduates with degrees to become "Firefighters and Policemen!"
So I guess they'll be competing with returning Military Veterans for those jobs!
This whole thing is an absolute MESS!
I hope we have an absolutely *bone jarring* reccession and all those outsourcing companies go bankrupt.
We need to start shaking this govt by the fucking NECK until we have it back in the hands of The People again!
A LOT of people in Washington belong in prison!

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RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? - 1/26/2008 4:06:47 AM   
LadyEllen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy
It's entertaining to watch those which cannot seem to grasp that we do live in a global economy...There is no going back. It's over. You better position yourself to profit from this event....Blame everything on the outsourcing of jobs and illegal immigration. lol. Those are obviously the only two reasons that this country is on the brink of a serious recession.


No, sorry - we can reverse this process and fairly easily, albeit with a significantly painful period of readjustment - but then we have a significantly painful period in adjusting to this brave new world already. The difference is in that by continuing down this present road we can only end up weaker, whilst the suffering of the other road leads us to being stronger.

We do this by insisting that we get out of those trade deals which adversely affect our people, instituting Anti Dumping Duties to level the market for cheap imports of products which we can make ourselves and making trade deals which benefit our people as a whole. But we only get to do that when we reform our electoral systems such that those paying for campaigns are not the very same few who benefit from the situation we are in and moving steadily deeper into.

Now, I expect to be bombarded for saying this, with how much it would affect the standings of our currencies, our GDP and so on. No doubt endless statistics and economic performance figures will rapidly wing their way to show how "damaging" my policy would be. Fair enough - but every last one of such responses will prove only one thing, and that is that supporters of the current situation totally miss the point and the wider consequences of the road we're on.

And the point is multiple, as are the wider consequences. And its all to do with "soft" sociological and psychological aspects of what it means to be a citizen, a society and a nation - things which are difficult to measure, except when it all goes wrong and we have generations of dispossessed and rejected citizens who no longer consider themselves citizens, a society which is anything but social and a nation which is nothing more than a subject of the world economy, and whose wealth has been transferred elsewhere; and as I'll remind readers, wealth is not the same as money. Of money there is plenty and always will be - albeit that it will more and more pass only to those few running the show, but even these happy few will have little wealth if any.

Either we as individuals, we as societies, we as peoples get to decide what is best and what is not for ourselves, and take the power to make sure we can achieve that end, or we submit to the whims and wills of powers that seek only their own benefit with regard for us only for so long as we are of use. And the advice that we cannot beat them, so we'd best join them......... did anyone see that film The 300? Are we really so easily bought?

Our nations exist to provide their peoples with the best collective circumstances. If they do not accomplish this function - if they exist only to benefit a small minority at the total expense of the remainder, then they are failed and due conquest. Such conquest can come from within by way of revolution, but the way things are now the conquest will undoubtedly be from outside - for this campaign is already underway and at the gates. Indeed, our increasing status as vassals of the world market may indicate that the gates are already long since breached.

E

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RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? - 1/26/2008 6:07:08 AM   
meatcleaver


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General point

What we are seeing is capitalism at work and normal capitalist reaction. Capitalists always cry foul when they are losing out but happy with a situation when they are gaining. I could take capitalists more seriously if they were consistent and worried about the conditions of workers when they are the ones gaining from the exploitation.

_____________________________

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RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? - 1/26/2008 8:18:03 AM   
samboct


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Nicely put Lady E

Sam

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RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? - 1/26/2008 8:51:08 AM   
domiguy


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quote:

LadyEllen
We do this by insisting that we get out of those trade deals which adversely affect our people, instituting Anti Dumping Duties to level the market for cheap imports of products which we can make ourselves and making trade deals which benefit our people as a whole. But we only get to do that when we reform our electoral systems such that those paying for campaigns are not the very same few who benefit from the situation we are in and moving steadily deeper into.


Then all of the people will join hands regardless of race and bake cookies.

What must be done is that our respective countries put education at the forefront...That we become the leaders of technology. That our productivity and skill does not lend itself to outsourcing.

If your level of expertise allows you to dig a hole, I don't think many will be able to distinguish your hole form the one dug by the guy in India. So you have to bring more to the table. It is estimated that a company can hire three engineers in India for every one hired in the States. But that is not the end of the story. There are extreme cultural differences. Difference in work ethics, accepting responsibility and blame...The cost of communication, whether it be by phone or in plane tickets...And the obvious language barriers....Just to name a few. Some companies are beginning to realize that this is not such a profitable venture.

This is not going away. What we should be doing is punishing those countries that do not respect the rights of "intellectual property" and patents and do not provide the basic needs for their workers. Other than that it is a brand new world....Deal.

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