What's good about overseas outsourcing?

What's good about overseas outsourcing? (Full Version)

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LadyEllen -> What's good about overseas outsourcing? (1/23/2008 2:54:38 AM)
So, what’s good about overseas outsourcing? I can find lots of things that are bad about it for the majority of our populations and for our countries as wholes – fewer jobs, net social welfare cost increases as a result, loss of skills, loss of security in the form of control over manufacturing resources and so on. I would also link the whole thing to the general malaise of the UK at least – the growth of a significant group of people who have become rejects from our society, who formerly could get a reasonable unskilled job but now can’t, because the job has gone overseas and what’s left is either out of their reach or doesn’t pay as well as welfare – and so are actively rejecting our society. The only aspects I can see benefit in are in terms of reduced inflation – goods made overseas are imported at low cost and sold at low price (UK inflation was kept under control for a while by virtue of Chinese imports), and in terms of huge profits for those involved in outsourcing. These huge profits make our performance look better perhaps, and the idea is that taxes paid on them makes up for the downsides in the first paragraph – but it doesn’t have to work out that way for corporations with inventive accounting and declaration methodologies. And of course, one cannot put a price on the wasted lives of those who have become rejects from the workplace or the loss of security involved in reliance on distant manufacturing for our needs. And further, once the skills are gone, they will be gone forever – no going back. So, does anyone have any good arguments as to why overseas outsourcing is a good thing for we ordinary folk? I’m thinking, hoping, that there must be something? E

UtopianRanger -> RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? (1/23/2008 3:37:52 AM)
I'm sure you could make a case that it both sets up a framework and facilitates improvements /modernization in that third world country’s infrastructure. But in terms of the market being outsourced, it's ''classic race to the bottom mentality.'' Those in the market being outsourced, are essentially making themselves poorer in order to raise the emerging market up. On the whole, clearly America has become a much poorer nation since it's lost its manufacturing base. - R

LadyEllen -> RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? (1/23/2008 3:48:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger I'm sure you could make a case that it both sets up a framework and facilitates improvements /modernization in that third world country’s infrastructure. - R Yes, I see that - though I wonder why its our job to improve others' lots at the expense of a significant proportion of our own populations' well being? Is it that we hope to increase their wealth so that they can become consumers (ie have the wealth to buy from us)? I can see that, but it seems like a long term project whilst the consequences to us are quite immediate and severe - and of course there is the question of what we might sell to them if they are making it anyway? E

Level -> RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? (1/23/2008 3:51:57 AM)
Well, lifting up other nation's poor could (concievably sp???) reduce tensions, anger, and violence, or at least some argue that. But at our expense......

LadyEllen -> RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? (1/23/2008 4:26:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Level Well, lifting up other nation's poor could (concievably sp???) reduce tensions, anger, and violence, or at least some argue that. But at our expense...... Yes, I see that too. But again I dont see why its our job as countries to provide a framework for "social work" for global capital, thereby making us weaker by virtue of the social problems we develop as a result. And I certainly do not believe for a moment that corporations are interested in anything other than increasing profits as is their duty to shareholders. We'd have slavery tomorrow if it were commercially viable. Is there not an argument for us to be helping from a position of strength, if we wish to help? E

Level -> RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? (1/23/2008 4:30:13 AM)
quote: And I certainly do not believe for a moment that corporations are interested in anything other than increasing profits as is their duty to shareholders I could not agree more! quote: We'd have slavery tomorrow if it were commercially viable. Just as long as I'm on top... [:D] quote: Is there not an argument for us to be helping from a position of strength, if we wish to help? The globalists argue that that is exactly what we're doing, I think. Now, ask someone that just watched their job go to Malaysia how "strong" they feel, and you'll get a vastly different answer. [:)]

LadyEllen -> RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? (1/23/2008 4:35:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Level The globalists argue that that is exactly what we're doing, I think. Yes. In the same way that the Khmer Rouge were busily creating a rural idyll in Cambodia. Spin, spin and spin again. E

OrionTheWolf -> RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? (1/23/2008 5:40:54 AM)
The only good I have seen come from it: keeps a failing company in business so that the non-outsourced jobs are still there. One of my clients refused to outsource, and they closed their doors last year, with over 200+ jobs lost. Here in the US at least, the consumer wants the cheapest product available, and once a competitor outsources then how can others stay in business? quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen So, what’s good about overseas outsourcing? I can find lots of things that are bad about it for the majority of our populations and for our countries as wholes – fewer jobs, net social welfare cost increases as a result, loss of skills, loss of security in the form of control over manufacturing resources and so on. I would also link the whole thing to the general malaise of the UK at least – the growth of a significant group of people who have become rejects from our society, who formerly could get a reasonable unskilled job but now can’t, because the job has gone overseas and what’s left is either out of their reach or doesn’t pay as well as welfare – and so are actively rejecting our society. The only aspects I can see benefit in are in terms of reduced inflation – goods made overseas are imported at low cost and sold at low price (UK inflation was kept under control for a while by virtue of Chinese imports), and in terms of huge profits for those involved in outsourcing. These huge profits make our performance look better perhaps, and the idea is that taxes paid on them makes up for the downsides in the first paragraph – but it doesn’t have to work out that way for corporations with inventive accounting and declaration methodologies. And of course, one cannot put a price on the wasted lives of those who have become rejects from the workplace or the loss of security involved in reliance on distant manufacturing for our needs. And further, once the skills are gone, they will be gone forever – no going back. So, does anyone have any good arguments as to why overseas outsourcing is a good thing for we ordinary folk? I’m thinking, hoping, that there must be something? E

LadyEllen -> RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? (1/23/2008 5:53:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf The only good I have seen come from it: keeps a failing company in business so that the non-outsourced jobs are still there. One of my clients refused to outsource, and they closed their doors last year, with over 200+ jobs lost. Here in the US at least, the consumer wants the cheapest product available, and once a competitor outsources then how can others stay in business? Absolutely. My company has to outsource the supply of road haulage to companies in central Europe for exactly the same sort of competitive pressures, albeit in the B2B environment. The result has been the destruction of the UK international haulage industry and now UK domestic hauliers are importing drivers from these countries too. Obviously there is a loss of jobs twice over here - first the UK drivers previously engaged on international routes, and now UK drivers who demand higher pay than their imported brethren. Whilst some of these drivers are sufficiently capable to then move to office work, most are not and end up taking low wage jobs or no job at all. But really, all this is after the fact I believe. The question is, why is outsourcing so good for the ordinary man and woman in the domestic workplace? E

subfever -> RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? (1/23/2008 5:58:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen So, does anyone have any good arguments as to why overseas outsourcing is a good thing for we ordinary folk? I’m thinking, hoping, that there must be something? E The PTB, state-worshippers, and those who directly benefit by virtue of profit or compensation will argue that outsourcing provides consumer goods at prices otherwise unobtainable to the needy lower and middle classes of the outsourced nation. I personally believe that all they're really doing is expanding the needy lower and middle classes of the outsourced nations, and at the same time, developing new markets abroad to eventually exploit and usurp wealth and power from. What good is world domination when most of the world doesn't have two nickels to rub together?

pahunkboy -> RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? (1/23/2008 6:00:04 AM)
It is good for the quirks of the English language to be learned by others. Some things are cultural and simply cant be picked up in books or training.

samboct -> RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? (1/23/2008 7:48:23 AM)
Hi Lady E Sorry- I have to agree with you. While the benefits of trade have long been clear to the world, outsourcing is not trade, much as its proponents would like to conflate the two. The only possible benefit I'd see from outsourcing to China is that if Europe and the US would keep the most modern technology in house, then exporting older technology isn't so terrible. But that's not what we've done, although we still have something of a working R + D establishment- a bit better than what's in China. But they're catching up fast.... Our smartest move is to export some of our workforce to China. We need to send them lawyers, lots and lots of lawyers. That'll fix 'em. Sam

marsman -> RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? (1/23/2008 8:14:07 AM)
I think that outsourcing is one of the causes of the so called "housing credit" problem. If average middle class people do not have good paying jobs, then they cannot pay off large mortgages. Henry Ford figured this out a century ago. He always paid his workers enough to be able to afford to buy a car.

meatcleaver -> RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? (1/23/2008 8:14:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger I'm sure you could make a case that it both sets up a framework and facilitates improvements /modernization in that third world country’s infrastructure. But in terms of the market being outsourced, it's ''classic race to the bottom mentality.'' Those in the market being outsourced, are essentially making themselves poorer in order to raise the emerging market up. On the whole, clearly America has become a much poorer nation since it's lost its manufacturing base. - R America, like Britain, has lost its manufacturing base because they weren't making products anyone wanted to buy at the price they wanted. The German economy has recovered through its manufacturing because Germany makes premium products and people are willing to pay premium prices for them. I mentioned this before, Germany exports more manufactured products than the USA does so its not impossible for the US to have a manufacturing base, it just has to make the right products. In the past the US has manufactured products with its home market in mind and on the whole not considered the export market. German companies consider their export market first. If you have a successful export product, the chances are your home market will want it too.

samboct -> RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? (1/23/2008 9:35:51 AM)
Meatcleaver Nope-German unions had more of a stranglehold on German companies- they couldn't outsource although in many areas such as electronics, they desperately wanted to. Outsourcing is not about market pricing, it's about hidden costs. China's costs are lower because they lack environmental standards, human life is cheap, and they respect no one's intellectual property. This is an economics problem and demonstrates that practitioners of that dismal science have screwed up yet AGAIN! (and we all pay for it- ARGGGHH!) China's mfg is NOT more efficient- heck the average efficiency of their coal generating plants is down in the high teens, whereas the average efficiency of US plants is in the mid 30s (Japan is a touch higher). It's also demonstrating that MBAs should stick to sweeping floors and not running businesses (who else can I slam here?) because the idea that you would take your hard won intellectual property (R+D ,. branding etc.) and GIVE IT TO YOUR COMPETITOR to manufacture is utterly idiotic. That most firms persist in doing so shows how lemminglike most businesses are. Sam

popeye1250 -> RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? (1/23/2008 11:06:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: marsman I think that outsourcing is one of the causes of the so called "housing credit" problem. If average middle class people do not have good paying jobs, then they cannot pay off large mortgages. Henry Ford figured this out a century ago. He always paid his workers enough to be able to afford to buy a car. Well said. And these companies are canibalising the U.S. market, sure, make it so that your biggest market has no money to spend on your merchandise. There used to be a thing called "brand loyalty" but no more. People just have no "interest" in seeing these companies stay in business anymore. Now, if they go out of business it won't hurt the middle and working class in this country because these businesses don't employ them anymore. So now it'll be a "race to the bottom" for these companies competing against each other! We can make book on which one will be the next to go out of business! "We have Acme tools at 5 to 2." What's "good" about "outsourcing?" In the long run nothing! It's hurt the working and middle classes and now it's going to hurt the companies themselves. It's called Greed. And who in their right mind would now want to buy stock in these outsourcing companies only to watch them get eaten alive by other outsourcing companies in an ever decreasing profits scenario? NOT ME! I'm very carefull which stocks I buy and stay well away from any companies who outsource. It'll be fun watching them spiral down. And just because a company has a maildrop or it's "headquarters" in London or Cleveland doesn't make it a British or American company anymore. It's just a matter of time before these companies are driven out of business by cheaper Chinese , Indian or other cheaper companies so fuck 'em, they deserve to go out of business!

SugarMyChurro -> RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? (1/23/2008 3:17:57 PM)
I think we are looking to the free markets to resolve all of these issues. [8\|] LadyEllen, you just need to retrain into some kind of higher level brain job for better pay. Yeah, that's the ticket...! [;)]

LadyEllen -> RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? (1/23/2008 3:22:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro LadyEllen, you just need to retrain into some kind of higher level brain job for better pay. Yeah, that's the ticket...! [;)] Whilst I appreciate the irony, I'm actually in a sector where there will always be sufficient demand for my skills and knowledge - at least until they invent the instantaneous automatic translator and the matter transporter! Watch some clever sod go and do both LOL! E

Leatherist -> RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? (1/23/2008 3:23:56 PM)
Part of the problem is that overtaxation by local and federal government adds to costs. Then you have overseas competition that forces companies that want to stay solvent to outsource to places where they don't have to pay all of the bennies and taxes at raw material,transportation in between steps, manufacturing and wholesaling, retailing etc..... Until half of the cost of what reaches market is from taxes. Of course, government does not want to admit that it is milking the cash cow to death-so they point to "corperate greed" instead. And we participate in our own demise by outsourcing our production base-we could not fight a large scale war now if it happened. And all of that outsourced stuff was cut off. Not a very good situation.

popeye1250 -> RE: What's good about overseas outsourcing? (1/23/2008 3:53:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro I think we are looking to the free markets to resolve all of these issues. [8\|] LadyEllen, you just need to retrain into some kind of higher level brain job for better pay. Yeah, that's the ticket...! [;)] Churro, I do my part, I just don't buy anything that not made in the US anymore. I have $12,000 in a savings account that I add to each month just from not buying cheap plastic crap or clothes that are made in China. I buy good stuff that's made in the U.S.A. and of much higher quality and lasts longer. I haven't been in a Walmart in 5 1/2 years now. People need to start fighting back against these greedy companies by NOT BUYING!

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