quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: Slavehandsome

Maybe it would be best if we siezed Jenna, Laura, Cheney's daughter, and whoever would mate with Rumsfeld.  Does he have children? 

Advocating an illegal act is against the TOS.

Firm

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Clinton carried the totem, Butch?  can you cite a little something?  I frankly am not aware of that.

Ron 

quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
Butch,

You're trying to reason with the "the faithful".  For the faithful, no amount of logic or countervailing facts will ever be sufficient to derail their fantasies one iota.

Firm

Fantasies? Why do suggest that?

The figure 935 lies--yes, lies, falsehoods, untruths, deceptions made unequivocally for the purposes of instigating a war--was derived by two not-for-profit journalist research groups: Center for Public Integrity and Fund for Independence in Journalism. These 935 instances are not blunders, misinformation, mistakes or errors--they are lies and obfuscation.

It is now beyond dispute that Iraq did not possess any weapons of mass destruction or have meaningful ties to Al Qaeda.

Nearly five years after the U.S. invasion of Iraq, an exhaustive examination of the record shows that the statements were part of an orchestrated campaign that effectively galvanized public opinion and, in the process, led the nation to war under decidedly false pretenses.

quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee
These 935 instances are not blunders, misinformation, mistakes or errors--they are lies and obfuscation.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
Just read contextual emotions by the "Bush lied" crowd.  Especially when someone "gores their ox" by challenging them (even politely). They generally treat disagreement as heresy.

Firm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Honsoku
No one wanted to even consider the extremely suspicious and convenient deaths of Ron Brown and Vincent Foster.

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Mnot you should look harder, the scope is far more than speeches.  He comitted acts of war and killed people over this stuff.

quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

It might be in your delivery.

quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

"The Duelfer report showed that Saddam was systematically gaming the system, using the U.N. oil-for-food program to try to influence countries and companies in an effort to undermine sanctions," Bush said as he prepared to fly to campaign events in Wisconsin. "He was doing so with the intent of restarting his weapons program once the world looked away."  --Bush Oct 2004

"The headlines all say, 'No weapons of mass destruction stockpiled in Baghdad.' We already knew that." Dick Cheney Oct 2004

quote:

ORIGINAL: Honsoku

quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee
These 935 instances are not blunders, misinformation, mistakes or errors--they are lies and obfuscation.

And just how, pray tell, do you know that? Do you have psychic abilities that we are unaware of? Or perhaps a memo detailing an planned set of lies and obfuscation? They call "military intelligence" an oxymoron for a reason. One of the things most people have a hard time grasping is just how difficult it is to acquire accurate information and to keep everyone updated on changes in that information. It isn't like we can expect other countries to be honest with us. In fact, we can expect other countries to try to actively mislead us.

It is funny how people always point to the Lewinsky business. Lewinsky was just the one which got the most media attention. It was simple, easy to understand, and sex was involved, so it sold to the public like hot cakes. The public ignored the receiving campaign funding from the Chinese and the resulting "close" ties with China, including the illegal sale of technology (including technology for the construction of missile guidance systems). No one wanted to even consider the extremely suspicious and convenient deaths of Ron Brown and Vincent Foster. Lewinsky was the smallest, most benign example which only gained the spotlight because it was so straightforward. If there is one lesson learned from both the Reagan and Clinton terms, it is that if you are going to try to unseat a popular sitting president, it better be an airtight connection and easily understood by the public.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Hi Gywn

So Cheney is a mastermind… starting a war for profit. And I suppose Colin Powell was in on it too.

The fact that they profited by the war does not mean they started it for that reason.

I’m sorry I can’t agree with you...like I often do… I think they were and are all egotistical idiots.

And yes they are very dangerous… not because they are masterminds but because the most powerful nation on earth is being led by egotistical incompetent fools.

Butch

Colin was used and abused,like so many, at the beginning.

That`s why Colin left,you know,"to spend more time with his family" <nod-wink>.

During WWII, people went to jail for war profiteering.Millions were saved,b/c H. Truman cracked a whip ,that kept greedy ass holes from taking more advantage,than was already happening.

My, how times have changed.Well ,only in the last 7 years,but neo-con don`t know how count, let alone,be accountable,anyway,so WTF.

When I hear republicans make comparisons of Iraq and WWII,I want to bitch slap them.Not only do they not compare,but it`s a true insult to those who commanded our GIs,in WWII.

For the faithful, no amount of logic or countervailing facts will ever be sufficient to derail their fantasies one iota.


firmhanky,..don`t talk about yourself.It`s not polite.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
Butch,

You're trying to reason with the "the faithful".  For the faithful, no amount of logic or countervailing facts will ever be sufficient to derail their fantasies one iota.

Firm

Fantasies? Why do suggest that?

The figure 935 lies--yes, lies, falsehoods, untruths, deceptions made unequivocally for the purposes of instigating a war--was derived by two not-for-profit journalist research groups: Center for Public Integrity and Fund for Independence in Journalism. These 935 instances are not blunders, misinformation, mistakes or errors--they are lies and obfuscation.

No, you (and the authors) interpret them as lies and obfuscations.  It's a matter of many biases being caught then turned to a justification of your position through an apparently analytical processes.

For example, this phrase from the study:

It is now beyond dispute that Iraq did not possess any weapons of mass destruction or have meaningful ties to Al Qaeda.

along with this statement:

Nearly five years after the U.S. invasion of Iraq, an exhaustive examination of the record shows that the statements were part of an orchestrated campaign that effectively galvanized public opinion and, in the process, led the nation to war under decidedly false pretenses.

... are the basis for all the claims made in the report, and your (and other's) support of the "Bush is a liar" meme.

1. It is not "without dispute" that Iraq had "no" weapons of mass destruction. It certainly wasn't "without dispute" prior to the war.

2.  No "meaningful ties with Al Qaeda" is a subjective call, and not the primary link that the administration made about Saddam's ties to terrorism.

3. Almost all effective public policies or political actions by an administration are "orchestrated campaign that effectively galvanized public opinion".  Ever heard of the "bully pulpit"? Yet here it seems to be better defined as a "conspiracy".

4. The conclusion that (a) the (then) current possession of WMDs, (b) "strong" links to Al Qaeda were the sole reasons for going to war is simply untrue.  You can go an dig out the official White House reasons for the war if you are really interested.  Overall, from memory, there were about 10 reasons for the war, at least.

5.  Another interesting question is how one defines a "lie".

The point of all of this is that you (... well ... at least the writers) aren't even close to approaching a dispassionate analysis of the situation. They are guilty of confirmation bias, skewed framing, outcome bias, and selective perception ... at the minimum.

My point to Butch was simply that the majority of the "Bush lied, people died." crowd aren't thinking rationally. They can use the cloak of rationality to excuse, justify and rationalize, but, at it core, this belief is based on faith and is not disprovable to them (or generally, open to even a calm discussion) by logical discussion of facts, timelines, or social and political explanations.

*shrugs*

Just read contextual emotions by the "Bush lied" crowd.  Especially when someone "gores their ox" by challenging them (even politely). They generally treat disagreement as heresy.

Firm

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I think he thought his dad mad a mistake not removing Hussein and decided to finish the job and used 9/11 as an excuse.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
There is no statute of limitations on murder so put up your evidence or shut up.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Out comes the tin-foil hats....eeeeeoooooow.lol

Just to bring you up to speed,all of the things he was charged w/,were investigated,at great government expence.Kennith Starr,cleared the Clintons of everything but the BJ stupidity.The lunitic fringe stuff,...well that`s for my cat`s litter box.

You Clinton haters ,remind of the clueless Japanese soldiers,who kept fighting on and on,years after the war was lost and over.