RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human?

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Stephann -> RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? (1/24/2008 12:39:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol As for putting a daughter on birth control de facto... quote: I believe if and when I have a daughter, as early as is medically safe, I expect she'll be on the safest form of birth control possible. ... I find this presposterous. Why not wait until the daughter expresses the need and desire to practice contraception? It's far more respectful of her and of her choices, rather than make the assumption that now that she's able to reproduce she will. How many daughters don't admit to their parents that they want/need birth control because they are afraid to admit they're having sex? Honestly, given my personality (which doesn't express as well through this message board) I highly doubt my daughter would be afraid to ask for birth control; yet I've already pointed out several good reasons unrelated to actual contraception, for why I would rather she take the pill as soon as she is able. Again, the final assumption, is that the child has the right to make that choice or not. thedark's son sums up what most children in healthy families would say "if you thought it was the right thing to do, I'd be ok with it." Children take their cues on their health and safety from parents; not the other way around. I've also clearly stated that if my daughter was adamently against it, and I felt I could trust her judgment (and I pray that I could) I wouldn't force the issue. Stephan

RCdc -> RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? (1/24/2008 12:40:48 PM)
Complete hijack (meh whats new) - Have you read 'Revisited'? If so, would you recommend it? the.dark.

LaTigresse -> RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? (1/24/2008 12:43:17 PM)
I am glad you said you would not force the issue. While I prefer the idea of education and communication with the outcome being an intelligent informed decision, I know that some parents prefer to stick their heads in the sand on this issue. I would be extremely against trying to force birth control on anyone in this context.

kittinSol -> RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? (1/24/2008 12:48:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Stephann How many daughters don't admit to their parents that they want/need birth control because they are afraid to admit they're having sex? Honestly, given my personality (which doesn't express as well through this message board) I highly doubt my daughter would be afraid to ask for birth control; yet I've already pointed out several good reasons unrelated to actual contraception, for why I would rather she take the pill as soon as she is able. Again, the final assumption, is that the child has the right to make that choice or not. thedark's son sums up what most children in healthy families would say "if you thought it was the right thing to do, I'd be ok with it." Children take their cues on their health and safety from parents; not the other way around. I've also clearly stated that if my daughter was adamently against it, and I felt I could trust her judgment (and I pray that I could) I wouldn't force the issue. Stephan Perhaps my experience made me into a hopeless idealist... I was lucky enough to be raised in a highly intelligent environment where matters of love and sex weren't taboo, or dirty. I was comfortable enough to ask for the pill when I needed it... Which brings me to this: if sexual education was an integral part of the curriculum in schools; if teenagers were able to seek contraception when they need it (as in Maine) without having to tell their parents, if the morning after pill was available at all pharmacies; if sex wasn't such a taboo subject; if politicians stopped listening to the religious despots... if all these matters were resolved... abortion would still be necessary in some instances. I think we agree on the above anyway [:D] . PS: quote: Complete hijack (meh whats new) - Have you read 'Revisited'? If so, would you recommend it? the.dark. I haven't read it; but I'm Googling it this instant. Thank you for the lead :-) .

Stephann -> RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? (1/24/2008 12:52:40 PM)
See, that's the tricky spot there. Parents force their children to do things all the time; going to bed, going to school, going to the doctor when they're sick. Parents are in a unique position where they not only are permitted, they are indeed required to force children to do things they otherwise don't wish to do. I also agree; my stance on the pill doesn't mean I wouldn't bother with communication or education. In practice, I wouldn't sit her down and say "you have a doctors appointment tomorrow, and you're going on the pill." I'd find out what she knows (or thinks she knows) about it, and then share my own thoughts and concerns with her. I'd (pray to god that I) know her friends, know where she is, and what she's doing. I'd make sure she's aware of the risks associated, but also (as delicately as possible) explain that in the right context and situation, sex is a wonderful thing between people who care about each other. I'd then ask her about how she feels about the pill, and suggest that going on it might be beneficial in terms of making her cycles more regular and less painful. Hope that clarifies things; I don't plan to wear a swastika around the house yanno. Stephan

Stephann -> RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? (1/24/2008 12:58:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol Perhaps my experience made me into a hopeless idealist... I was lucky enough to be raised in a highly intelligent environment where matters of love and sex weren't taboo, or dirty. I was comfortable enough to ask for the pill when I needed it... Which brings me to this: if sexual education was an integral part of the curriculum in schools; if teenagers were able to seek contraception when they need it (as in Maine) without having to tell their parents, if the morning after pill was available at all pharmacies; if sex wasn't such a taboo subject; if politicians stopped listening to the religious despots... if all these matters were resolved... abortion would still be necessary in some instances. I think we agree on the above anyway [:D] . Yep, in some instances. Just like electro-shock is recommended in some instances. I think sex is only taboo today, because it is profitable for sex to be taboo. People pay more for something they feel is 'secret' and men wouldn't be drooling over hot chicks in bikinis for beer commercials, if they didn't feel they had to hide it (so much) from their wives. The fact is, it is hard for many teens to get effective contraception when they're young. The pill is far more effective than condoms alone (after all, teens are the least experienced and capable when it comes to using condoms) and combined, there's even less of a chance of pregnancy. But because it's taboo, because it's a 'big deal' teens continue to become pregnant. I'd like to mention, briefly, that I didn't intend to focus only on teens; I think that when contraception methods improve, it will be adults who will also be taking advantage of these procedures. In short, it's not just teens getting abortions; it's adults who also didn't bother with contraception. Stephan y

ravennfyre -> RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? (1/24/2008 9:26:26 PM)
quote: The words of my dad still haunt me today: "We don't do that sort of thing! We're not hill people!" I vividly remember the day my mother spoke to me the morning after she took me to abort a 5 month old fetus when I was 18. She said to me "We didn't raise you to be like this." I also remember, during that 5 month span of time, standing at the top of a flight of stairs wondering how many times I would have to throw myself down them to "get rid of this mess"...wondering how many days I would have to go without eating to "take care of this thing"...going up to CMU for orientation and looking desperately through the yellow pages for a cheap clinic...Even at age 18, I STILL wasn't prepared for the ramifications of having sex...protected or not. Clinics wouldn't touch me because I was too far along, so I had to tell my mother so that I could abort in the hospital. Would I do it again? Not a chance. Would I take that choice away from my 15 year old daughter? No, I wouldn't. Would I force my 17 year old son to step up and take responsibility for his actions? You bet I would. There's a part of me that goes along with Stephann's idea. If it were up to me, no one would be capable of procreating until they have graduated high school, and college, held down a job and supported themselves in their own home. Then again, I think that cars shouldn't be able to turn unless the driver uses the turn signal. I can't remember who posted about birth control in girls at 8, but those who oppose the idea might want to read up on "precocious puberty" My 14 year old niece went into full fledged puberty at the age of 8 and she's been on birth control ever since.

dcnovice -> RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? (1/24/2008 10:25:24 PM)
<fast reply> To me, the real question is when the fetus become a legal person with rights that must be balanced against his or her mother's.

PanthersMom -> RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? (1/24/2008 10:25:55 PM)
as an answer to the original question, "is a fetus human?" the answer is yes. visit a neonatal intensive care unit full of premature infants and you will see just how medical science is advancing to help even the smallest infants survive. babies born at the same stage as some abortions are performed are surviving with very good outcomes these days thanks to the advances in medical science. i do not believe in abortion as birth control, i believe children should be educated at an early age about responsibility, self respect, respect for others and the meaning of self control. they also should be taught the actual facts of life, not the rumors they get from friends. reliable, safe, and affordable if not free birth control should be available to both sexes. there is no excuse in this day and age for our children to be aware of sex at the age of five thanks to mom's soap operas and yet be "too young and impressionable" for sex ed in junior high school! we need to do better for our children. PM

Aileen1968 -> RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? (1/25/2008 3:26:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLord Dear all: It was my hope to point out that to be "human" is to meet a series of vague and differing definitions.. that, in the end, you can't say something is or isn't human anymore than you can say if the number 435 is close to 500. You could more accurately say that the subject in consideration (the 435) is close to the ideal (the 500) in ways. Or, more accurately, you could say it differs by 65. Or, with true reverence, you could state that they're simply 435 and 500, leaving the analysis up to circumstance. Therefore, is a fetus human? The question is silly because it's based off on how close to one's ideal of humanity it is! It's certainly closer than a pile of dirt, but it's probably further than your adult family members. My point is that if something is or isn't human is irrelevant. That we have to look beyond that to understand the question. More whispers lost to noise. I've been somewhat avoiding this thread since it kind of hits home to me. Here's wiki's definition of "fetus" To answer your question...yes. A fetus is most definitely human. Of course that's only my opinion and it's based on life experiences. I've never had an abortion, but I have delivered a "fetus" at 21 weeks and I can tell you that he was perfectly human in every minute detail. I can also say that not once have I ever remembered him as anything other than my son and not some random developing mammal. As soon as I knew I had a baby growing within me that was my child not a fetus.

aviinterra -> RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? (1/25/2008 4:54:11 AM)
oh dear, this thread has gone way off it's topic. Stephann, you seem to be sure that the pill is a godsend against pregnancy. As someone who has worked in the pharm. industry, I urge you to reconsider your quick judgement that you would have your daughter put on it, and fast, before you have even had her much less consulted a competant physician. For your future benefit and perhaps as a service to some others, here is a list of pros and cons, as given by a leading university: The good things: Decreased menstrual blood flow, both in amount and duration. Decreased menstrual cramps. Decreased severity of premenstrual syndrome. Decreased incidence of functional ovarian cysts and ovulatory pain. Decreased risk of breast cysts Decreased risk of ovarian and uterine cancer. Does not interrupt love-making. Reversible contraceptive method - previous fertility status returns after discontinuation of the pill. The bad things: Spotting or bleeding between normal periods, "break-through bleeding" Weight and/or appetite changes Nausea, prevented by taking the pill with food Breast tenderness or fullness Mood changes, irritability and infrequently, in sex drive change Hormonal changes resulting in vaginal itching and possible vaginitis Abdominal Pain Vomiting Weakness Chest Pain (Severe) Shortness of Breath Cough Left Arm or Shoulder Pain Headache (severe) Dizziness Weakness Sudden Intellectual Impairment Eye Problems Complete or Partial Loss of Vision Sudden Visual Impairment Severe Leg Pains Swelling Localized Heat Tenderness Hypertension - (occasional) High blood pressure. There may not be any symptoms. Blood pressure should be checked every 6 to 12 months by a health care practitioner. Amenorrhea - (occasional) Failure of menstrual periods to return after stopping the pill. There may be slight delay, as long as six months, in return of regular menses after stopping the pill. This is sometimes accompanied by galactorrhea, a milky discharge from the nipples. Amenorrhea is more apt to occur in those women who had irregular periods prior to pill use. Gall bladder disease - (rare) Development of gallstones. Symptoms are upper abdominal pain, indigestion. Liver tumors - Rare, but reported with long-term oral contraceptive use. Abdominal pain occurs, possible rupture and extensive bleeding. Severe Side Effects: Circulatory problems due to blood clots or thrombosis are the potential life-threatening side effects of the pill. These include stroke, heart attack, and cardiovascular disease. Women over the age of 35, are obese, have high cholesterol levels, and who smoke are most at risk. As you can see, the pill is no fun for some women, and it was designed for the average ADULT and sexually active woman, not a female that is still even in the last phases of puberty, which can continue until 20.

Owner59 -> RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? (1/25/2008 5:39:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: aviinterra oh dear, this thread has gone way off it's topic. Stephann, you seem to be sure that the pill is a godsend against pregnancy. As someone who has worked in the pharm. industry, I urge you to reconsider your quick judgement that you would have your daughter put on it, and fast, before you have even had her much less consulted a competant physician. For your future benefit and perhaps as a service to some others, here is a list of pros and cons, as given by a leading university: The good things: Decreased menstrual blood flow, both in amount and duration. Decreased menstrual cramps. Decreased severity of premenstrual syndrome. Decreased incidence of functional ovarian cysts and ovulatory pain. Decreased risk of breast cysts Decreased risk of ovarian and uterine cancer. Does not interrupt love-making. Reversible contraceptive method - previous fertility status returns after discontinuation of the pill. The bad things: Spotting or bleeding between normal periods, "break-through bleeding" Weight and/or appetite changes Nausea, prevented by taking the pill with food Breast tenderness or fullness Mood changes, irritability and infrequently, in sex drive change Hormonal changes resulting in vaginal itching and possible vaginitis Abdominal Pain Vomiting Weakness Chest Pain (Severe) Shortness of Breath Cough Left Arm or Shoulder Pain Headache (severe) Dizziness Weakness Sudden Intellectual Impairment Eye Problems Complete or Partial Loss of Vision Sudden Visual Impairment Severe Leg Pains Swelling Localized Heat Tenderness Hypertension - (occasional) High blood pressure. There may not be any symptoms. Blood pressure should be checked every 6 to 12 months by a health care practitioner. Amenorrhea - (occasional) Failure of menstrual periods to return after stopping the pill. There may be slight delay, as long as six months, in return of regular menses after stopping the pill. This is sometimes accompanied by galactorrhea, a milky discharge from the nipples. Amenorrhea is more apt to occur in those women who had irregular periods prior to pill use. Gall bladder disease - (rare) Development of gallstones. Symptoms are upper abdominal pain, indigestion. Liver tumors - Rare, but reported with long-term oral contraceptive use. Abdominal pain occurs, possible rupture and extensive bleeding. Severe Side Effects: Circulatory problems due to blood clots or thrombosis are the potential life-threatening side effects of the pill. These include stroke, heart attack, and cardiovascular disease. Women over the age of 35, are obese, have high cholesterol levels, and who smoke are most at risk. As you can see, the pill is no fun for some women, and it was designed for the average ADULT and sexually active woman, not a female that is still even in the last phases of puberty, which can continue until 20. My mom,on birth control,conceived my brother 4 months after having me. The pill is not 100 % affective.And the heath issues/side affects are many,as posted above. I got a vasectomy a while back.So far ,so good.[image]http://www.collarchat.com/micons/m11.gif[/image]

Stephann -> RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? (1/25/2008 7:43:39 AM)
In no way am I suggesting the pill is flawless contraception. I'm suggesting that, statistically, it works far better to prevent pregnancy, and generally I find the benefits (even for someone who is practicing abstinance) outweigh the risks for the average, healthy person. I've actually been speaking more, in this thread, about the future though; about the likelyhood of procedures that will be painless, harmless, and even more effective in reducing the possibility of unwanted pregnancy. Again, if it was on par with just getting a shot at 3, 5, or 8 years old, to never have to worry about your child becoming pregnant until they choose to do so, why wouldn't yo? Stephan

DisenchantedLife -> RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? (1/25/2008 8:04:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: loveNdevotion "Thankfully, your dream will remain a fantasy. Abortion isn't such a problem that we'll ever have to resort to such extreme measures. It's an unfortunate fact of life that women have to terminate pregnancies: but it's not the end of the world. Only anti-choice people would have us believe that. " Actually, it is the end of someone's world. Quite literally so. Whether that someone was considered human at the time their world ended- or would have become human at some point in the ensuing months- the world did, indeed, end- for them. Why does everyone ignore that? IMO that is the greatest tradegy

Mercnbeth -> RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? (1/25/2008 8:19:02 AM)
tragedies get prioritized by degree... once the raped 14 year old presents her pregnant self at the hospital and requests the procedure, the medical doctors and legal analysts on staff decide that operating under current California law, the PARENTS HAVE NO SAY. they can neither force her to abort or not to abort...it is a choice SHE MAKES, with counsel of the Doctors on staff...who, by the way, unanimously agree to stop the fetus's heart and induce labor. the parents only decision is if they are going to admit her into the hospital to labor and deliver there...or take her home and have her labor and deliver at home. having the same 14 year old decide on a semi-permanent birth control method WITHOUT the approval of her parents seems to make even more sense---ounce of prevention and all.

Muttling -> RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? (1/25/2008 8:21:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth having the same 14 year old decide on a semi-permanent birth control method WITHOUT the approval of her parents seems to make even more sense---ounce of prevention and all. Didn't the nation have this exact same argument concerning the sell of condoms to minors about 20 years ago???

Owner59 -> RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? (1/25/2008 8:25:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Stephann In no way am I suggesting the pill is flawless contraception. I'm suggesting that, statistically, it works far better to prevent pregnancy, and generally I find the benefits (even for someone who is practicing abstinance) outweigh the risks for the average, healthy person. I've actually been speaking more, in this thread, about the future though; about the likelyhood of procedures that will be painless, harmless, and even more effective in reducing the possibility of unwanted pregnancy. Again, if it was on par with just getting a shot at 3, 5, or 8 years old, to never have to worry about your child becoming pregnant until they choose to do so, why wouldn't yo? Stephan about the likelyhood of procedures that will be painless, harmless, and even more effective in reducing the possibility of unwanted pregnancy. Hope so,a vasectomy feels like a kick in the balls for days.

Mercnbeth -> RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? (1/25/2008 8:36:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Muttling quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth having the same 14 year old decide on a semi-permanent birth control method WITHOUT the approval of her parents seems to make even more sense---ounce of prevention and all. Didn't the nation have this exact same argument concerning the sell of condoms to minors about 20 years ago??? this slave doesn't know, but thinks that selling minors condoms is a bad idea... they should be GIVEN to them...

Stephann -> RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? (1/25/2008 8:46:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 quote: ORIGINAL: Stephann In no way am I suggesting the pill is flawless contraception. I'm suggesting that, statistically, it works far better to prevent pregnancy, and generally I find the benefits (even for someone who is practicing abstinance) outweigh the risks for the average, healthy person. I've actually been speaking more, in this thread, about the future though; about the likelyhood of procedures that will be painless, harmless, and even more effective in reducing the possibility of unwanted pregnancy. Again, if it was on par with just getting a shot at 3, 5, or 8 years old, to never have to worry about your child becoming pregnant until they choose to do so, why wouldn't yo? Stephan about the likelyhood of procedures that will be painless, harmless, and even more effective in reducing the possibility of unwanted pregnancy. Hope so,a vasectomy feels like a kick in the balls for days. Well, considering the first documented 'modern' vasectomy happened in 1899, I'd say 50 more years is a lot of time to improve the procedure. http://www.vasectomy-information.com/moreinfo/history.htm Stephan

Marc2b -> RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? (1/25/2008 8:59:08 AM)
quote: If they are,then why don`t people have funerals for miscarriages or the unborn? People do. Just thought I’d point that out. For the record, I don’t like the idea of abortion but I am pro-choice (it's easy to have high moral princliple's so long as the consequences don't affect you)

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