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RE: Should the U.S. claim Bankruptcy? - 1/25/2008 12:27:49 PM   
Stephann


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

Stephenn I do agree that a Depression would not be good.  However if you look at the world currentancy exchange the US Dollar is almost worthless.  A Balance Budget would be a great idea however the last time we actually had surplus Congress spent all of it and more on pork barrel projects for their special interest friends.  To balance the budget Congress is going to have to be controlled, unlikely.  They are always inventing ways of getting around such things.  One of the fastest ways Congress spends money is by "Earmarking" funds.  A member of congress during budget talks simply writes into the budget "Earmark" funds of an amount to a specific company.  No hearing are conducted as why this money should be given out.  Every Congress member does this, why..simple in return for the earmark funds they get a campaign contribution. 


You're kidding, right?

Quick story: I was living in Chile (a poor, latin american country, though probably the richest latin american country.)  Who's their biggest trading partner?  The US.  One day I'm waiting to get on the subway (costs about a buck) and the woman ahead of me tells the ticket vendor "I'm sorry, I only have US money from the tip I got at work today." The ticket taker takes the dollar, and breaks it out of his own pocket.. even giving her 100 pesos (about 16 cents) change.  Do you think he would have done that with Yen?  Rupees?  Marks?  American dollars are still the international currency.  It's why they're taken everywhere, even being used as black market currency in countries like Venezuala and North Korea, where their own currency is artificially manufactured.

Yes, folks, our dollars have and will continue to have value, so long as the military industrial complex in the US continues to churn out the necessary technology and equipment for everyone else to blow each other up.

This suggestion that we have had any sort of 'suplus' or 'balanced budget' in any sort of recent history is laughable (including Clinton's touted 'balanced budget.')  A balanced budget that only pays the interest with no eye towards the principal on our debt only ensures that we remain in debt, indefinitely.

Stephan

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RE: Should the U.S. claim Bankruptcy? - 1/25/2008 1:08:51 PM   
DomKen


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Let me now corect you where you're wrong.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Muttling
Who Holds Our Debt - We have absolutely NO control over WHO holds our debt and it really doesn't matter.  The bonds are traded on the open bond market for anyone to buy and the terms are set by the U.S. government who issues the bonds.   China holding most of our debt is really meaningless other than the fact that the interest payment on the debt goes out of country. They can't suddenly demand payment on the debt, they have to wait until the bond matures to request payment.

So many misconceptions. First the open market is in dollars. In order to buy a lot of T Bonds you must either have dollars or exchange what curency you do have for dollars. Since exchanging currency always entails a transaction fee most institutional bond buyers are loathe to do so since it eats into their buying power and therefore their profits. With T Bonds being so low interest this generally freezes out anyone who doesn't already have dollars.

The holders cannot suddenly demand payment but they can suddenly dump all their T Bonds on the market. Which would drive the market for new T Bonds down which is equivalent to a higher interest rate on the bond. Which if it drove the bond price down far enough would have a severe inflationary effect on the dollar as we would have to sell more T Bonds to finance the same amount of debt.

quote:

Trade Deficit - This has absolutely NOTHING to do with the federal budget or the national debt or the topic at hand.  This just means we buy more tangible goods from China than they buy from us.  HOWEVER, services such as engineering design word are not included in the calculation and China buys a LOT of technical services from us.

While the census isn't able to quantify exactly how much services are exported they do include an estimate in their Trade balance report.

Also as I pointed out above if we maintain a large deficit in trade with a single nation that nation will inevitably find itself with a surplus of dollars. Japan wasn't too bad as private companies held most of the dollars and eventually those companies bought Pebble beach etc. rather than buying our debt to use as a Sword of Damocles. OTOH China has a limited number of entities holding US dollars in any quantity and those entities have bought our debt at an amazing pace. This gives them the ability to collapse our economy on a whim. A balanced budget and an improvement in the balance of trade would straighten this out before something catastrophic happens.

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RE: Should the U.S. claim Bankruptcy? - 1/25/2008 5:04:28 PM   
subfever


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Muttling

On a side note, we CAN pull ourselves out of this hole but it first requires a BALANCED FUCKING BUDGET.



Really?

I would like someone to explain to me how paying off the national debt, or even all collective personal debt for that matter, is even possible. After all, our money is debt. Every dollar bill, regardless of denomination, represents an IOU.

Therefore, the money needed to pay off the principle and interest doesn't even exist yet.
And the only way to create the money needed to service the debt is by creating new money/debt.





< Message edited by subfever -- 1/25/2008 5:05:51 PM >

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RE: Should the U.S. claim Bankruptcy? - 1/25/2008 9:02:28 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever

quote:

ORIGINAL: Muttling

On a side note, we CAN pull ourselves out of this hole but it first requires a BALANCED FUCKING BUDGET.




Really?

I would like someone to explain to me how paying off the national debt, or even all collective personal debt for that matter, is even possible. After all, our money is debt. Every dollar bill, regardless of denomination, represents an IOU.

Therefore, the money needed to pay off the principle and interest doesn't even exist yet.
And the only way to create the money needed to service the debt is by creating new money/debt.

The dollar as all fiat money is a legal fiction. Hard money is a debt instrument not fiat money. For the difference find a silver certificate and compare it to a treasury note.

The dollar, as it stands now, is an istrument of simplified barter. You or I accept a dollar for our labor, merchandise or whatever proides our income because we are confident that others will exchange those dollars for goods and services we desire. The government does enforce this with the law behind "legal tender for all debts public and private" but that doesn't change the fact that nothing is behind the dollar and therefore dollars do not represent debt in any manner.

Sound monetary policy dictates that the number of dollars in circulation be limited or we will have inflation. That is one of the prime dangers of a bull stock market since the wealth being created is an expansion of the monetary supply outside of government controls which is why when the market is going up you will see the Federal Reserve raise the prime rate which makes short term borrowing more expensive which ripples through the financial industry acting as a brake on the market. However modest inflation of the money supply is a necessary thing, the population is expanding afterall, which if handled carefully will result in only modest inflation.

The government eliminating its debt would be possible simply by ceasing borrowing long term and devoting a small amount every year to paying off maturing T Bonds. This would gradually shrink the number of T Bonds in circulation which would be mildly deflationary. However with less T Bond investment the institutional buyers would move their money into muni bonds and the like, which lower interest rates for infrastructure and other long term projects where bond sales are a reasonable way to finance the projects would become easier to finance and less of a tax burden, which ultimately is better for all of us. And that completely neglects that as the debt declines a balanced budget could be maintained with progressively lower tax rates which would make everyone, escpecially our descendants, happy.

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RE: Should the U.S. claim Bankruptcy? - 1/25/2008 9:15:30 PM   
mnottertail


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lol, what you better be paying attention to is that the chinese on one fucking day put 5 billion cash into our economy cause they heard we were having a little trouble with the home owning thing, most of the indexes (heng seng and whatnot) cashed out alotta shit and invested cash here----------pumped alotta moola in the banks.

What does that mean, and do the Japs still own rockefeller center as they did in the mid 70's?

Walk me thru it.

LOL

Ron


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RE: Should the U.S. claim Bankruptcy? - 1/25/2008 9:39:04 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

lol, what you better be paying attention to is that the chinese on one fucking day put 5 billion cash into our economy cause they heard we were having a little trouble with the home owning thing, most of the indexes (heng seng and whatnot) cashed out alotta shit and invested cash here----------pumped alotta moola in the banks.

What does that mean, and do the Japs still own rockefeller center as they did in the mid 70's?

Walk me thru it.

LOL

Ron


What it means is we're all very nearly screwed. It may be too late and any attempt to return to fiscal sanity would result in retalitory action by China that we could not weather. Say thanks to that to the Wal Mart greeter next time you go in there.

Reducing the trade inbalance with China is an absolute neccessity to get that concentration of dollars out of essentially hostile hands. That means making the WTO enforce our IP laws on china or failing that getting a government with the stones to put a big enough tariff on chinese imports for failure to comply to shift our trade to other nations as well as encouraging a revitalization of US manufacturing.

The big japanese companies that do business here have shifted a lot of manufacturing jobs to the US over the last 20 years so while profits may still flow overseas a great deal of money generated by Honda, Toyota et al remains in the US as wages for manufacturing jobs which considering the dismal state of our own heavy industrial companies isn't an entirely bad thing. 

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RE: Should the U.S. claim Bankruptcy? - 1/25/2008 9:55:20 PM   
Nosathro


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Well..perhaps in Chile but you should look at the European Money Market...the dollar is way down.
 
PS...she is cute..is she for sale...do you take Euro Dollars?
quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

Stephenn I do agree that a Depression would not be good.  However if you look at the world currentancy exchange the US Dollar is almost worthless.  A Balance Budget would be a great idea however the last time we actually had surplus Congress spent all of it and more on pork barrel projects for their special interest friends.  To balance the budget Congress is going to have to be controlled, unlikely.  They are always inventing ways of getting around such things.  One of the fastest ways Congress spends money is by "Earmarking" funds.  A member of congress during budget talks simply writes into the budget "Earmark" funds of an amount to a specific company.  No hearing are conducted as why this money should be given out.  Every Congress member does this, why..simple in return for the earmark funds they get a campaign contribution. 


You're kidding, right?

Quick story: I was living in Chile (a poor, latin american country, though probably the richest latin american country.)  Who's their biggest trading partner?  The US.  One day I'm waiting to get on the subway (costs about a buck) and the woman ahead of me tells the ticket vendor "I'm sorry, I only have US money from the tip I got at work today." The ticket taker takes the dollar, and breaks it out of his own pocket.. even giving her 100 pesos (about 16 cents) change.  Do you think he would have done that with Yen?  Rupees?  Marks?  American dollars are still the international currency.  It's why they're taken everywhere, even being used as black market currency in countries like Venezuala and North Korea, where their own currency is artificially manufactured.

Yes, folks, our dollars have and will continue to have value, so long as the military industrial complex in the US continues to churn out the necessary technology and equipment for everyone else to blow each other up.

This suggestion that we have had any sort of 'suplus' or 'balanced budget' in any sort of recent history is laughable (including Clinton's touted 'balanced budget.')  A balanced budget that only pays the interest with no eye towards the principal on our debt only ensures that we remain in debt, indefinitely.

Stephan


_____________________________

"The love of a slave girl is the deepest and most profound love that any woman can give a man. Love makes a woman a man's slave, and the wholeness of that love requires that she be, in truth, his slave." Magicians of Gor, page 31

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RE: Should the U.S. claim Bankruptcy? - 1/25/2008 10:05:26 PM   
popeye1250


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Unless and until we get manufacturing back into this country were just pissing into the wind.
Hopefully all these financial problems that are beginning to happen will be viewed as a warning and a lesson to big and small businesses that this "free trade" stuff just doesn't work!
I know a bunch of people who would love to buy a new house, car, appliances etc but can't do so with all these "service economy" jobs.
You don't "kill your customer."
People who make $30 an hour buy houses, cars, furniture, appliances, insurance and a bunch of other things.
People who make $10 an hour don't buy very much beyond subsistance level.

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RE: Should the U.S. claim Bankruptcy? - 1/25/2008 11:15:28 PM   
Termyn8or


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Too bad I don't have more time.

First of all the US govt became insolvent in the civil war years, it wasn't until big money engineered the stock market crash that the govt officially declared bankruptcy (in 1933). The country, unbeknownst to most came under what is called Admiralty Maritime Jurisdiction. this is an emergency suspension of the Constitution.

Our currency was a fiat currency well before WW2. Think about them calling in the gold. They never had any right to do that. But they did it. They never had the right to turn the dollar into a fiat currency, but they did it.

But then we must get to the OP no ?

If we were to basiaclly nationalize the debt, which is the only option because of our status since 1933, we would basiclly become an isolationist state. This would not be by choice. When looking at the economy, this can be called a "natural" reaction. Countries holding our paper will no longer wish to do so. And when that happens the dollar will plummet.

Your two thousand dollar plasma TV will be four thousand. Your eighteen thousand dollar car will be thirty thousand. However, there are some things in your favor.

Real estate.

Now here is the deal, when you hold real estate you realize why they call it real. If you believe that the economy will recover and not collapse, now is the perfect time to buy houses. Just don't even think of trying to sell them, rent them. Don't count on selling anything now, there is not only a glut of houses foreclosed on, there are then the people who want to sell before they wreck their credit. Then there are those who want to sell because of a disintegrating or worsening neighborhood, or in the case of some very good neighbors of mine, advancing age. They are having difficulty maintaining the property and want to move to a condo.

This year I might figure something out to keep them around. Seems like among those who have bought houses in this neighborhood in the last ten years, few have been able to hold on to them. There are two extra driveways right now where we can park. Used to be three. I bet there will be three again.

If you think the economy is going to recouperate, property is a great investment right now. But if the ecomony falls down, you fall with it. This would bring a state of isolationism to this land. I don't even want to even think about what gasoline would cost.

There have been a few economists who said that the dollar dropping is good because it makes our exports cheaper. While that is true, it is not very significant because of the trade imbalance. We are buying more than we are producing, and that is reflected in debt. It is not only the govt who does this, alot of people do as well.

Is it they that reflect us, or we that reflect them ?

T

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RE: Should the U.S. claim Bankruptcy? - 1/25/2008 11:24:18 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Too bad I don't have more time.

First of all the US govt became insolvent in the civil war years, it wasn't until big money engineered the stock market crash that the govt officially declared bankruptcy (in 1933). The country, unbeknownst to most came under what is called Admiralty Maritime Jurisdiction. this is an emergency suspension of the Constitution.

Just making stuff up I see. Got a link to an official declaration of bankruptcy by the feds? Although since you're spouting the admiralty court BS I'm guessing you got this drivel from a tax protester.

Anybody want to guess the ultimate source of the admiralty court claim? I guarantee that if you haven't already heard the answer youwon't know it.


Gold fringe on flags in courtrooms. I'm not kidding.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_protester_conspiracy_arguments

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RE: Should the U.S. claim Bankruptcy? - 1/26/2008 12:16:40 AM   
Feric


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the country can climb out of the hole, but it will require sacrifice on the part of the whole country, not just the bottom third like always. All outstanding debts from foreign countries will have to be called in, and foreign aid will have to be trimmed (aid to Israel alone costs the USA more than $7 billion a year). On top of which, the government will have to license something that it can tax; something that everybody needs or wants. Gasoline comes to mind right away, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was something outrageous like marijuana! If the latter, it's been estimated that the country's national debt could be paid off in less than five years! I'm against it (!), but as Popeye noted, the country's debt is getting very scary. 

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RE: Should the U.S. claim Bankruptcy? - 1/26/2008 12:21:35 AM   
laurell3


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Thankfully it's not an option for the national government to claim bankruptcy.  Who do you think funds the bankruptcy courts by the way?  How could a bankruptcy for a county with more assets than debts work?  You understand you have to give up those assets to have the debt forgiven right?  Sure, let's sell the pentagon and white house first!

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When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

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RE: Should the U.S. claim Bankruptcy? - 1/26/2008 12:31:49 AM   
CuriousLord


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The US Debt is about 30.2 kUSD per person.  (U.S. National Debt Clock)

Honestly?  I'd just raise taxes and pay it off over the next score.  That would be about 1.5k USD taxes per person each year for twenty years, though.  Probably not the most popular approach, plus there would have to be provisions for people who don't make enough to reasonably be expected to pay that (such as in low income, large families) but, meh.

Could probably knock down that 1.5k USD/yr figure, too, if the fiscal responsibility turns around and causes our current taxes to result in a net gain.  Doesn't strike me as entirely impossible, given proper motivation.

So who is our debt to, anyhow?

< Message edited by CuriousLord -- 1/26/2008 12:36:41 AM >

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RE: Should the U.S. claim Bankruptcy? - 1/26/2008 12:41:55 AM   
Muttling


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quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

Thankfully it's not an option for the national government to claim bankruptcy.  Who do you think funds the bankruptcy courts by the way?  How could a bankruptcy for a county with more assets than debts work?  You understand you have to give up those assets to have the debt forgiven right?  Sure, let's sell the pentagon and white house first!



Unfortunately my Lady.......It IS an option just not the type of Bankruptcy that you are used to.


The Federal government can declare ALL U.S. bonds null and void.   The Federal government can say that "The U.S. will not honor these debts" and turn the bonds totally worthless with a simple statement.

The individuals and organizations holding those bonds would be left without recourse.   They would be totally shafted and totally loose their money.

That said, the results would be devestating to our economy as it would not be others forgiving our debt.....it would be us defaulting upon it.    Our bond issues would be totally worthless and the American dollar would become equally worthless.


It is a dreadful concept, but it is no more dreadful than they concept of printing enough money to pay off all our debts in cash.   


Fortunately, we have never had an administration that was so foolish as to go down such a path and thereby decimate our economy.   This is not a real risk in the forseeable future.


It IS a REAL risk if we continue our pattern of deficit spending and don't start balancing our budgets.   We CAN fix this, but we must get serious about balancing the budget to do it.

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RE: Should the U.S. claim Bankruptcy? - 1/26/2008 12:45:49 AM   
CuriousLord


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One option (not that I'd endorse it) would be to default on a percentage.  Instead of saying, "Your bonds are worthless", it could be, "Your bonds are good for only 50%."  It would only kill half the debt due to bonds, but it wouldn't be as suicidial.

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RE: Should the U.S. claim Bankruptcy? - 1/26/2008 12:49:03 AM   
popeye1250


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Laurell, they're talking some nonsense about "giving" Taxpayers some of *our* money back, $300-$1,200.
Here's an Idea, make it $1 Million per taxpayer then declare bankruptcy!
After all, it is *Our Money* it should be in the Taxpayer's hands, not the governments.
Assets? Give them half of the Air Craft Carriers, we won't need them anyway if we'd *just mind our own fuckin' business* and stop getting involved in foreign countrie's problems!
I couldn't give a rat's ass about Israel, Egypt, or any other foreign country and the LAST thing I want to do is give foreign countries any money!
And there is absolutely no reason that we should have embasseys in every single country in the world!  Talk about "Empire."
We need to absolutely GUT the State Dept and send those highly paid layabouts into the DPS.
The State Dept have become "advocates" for foreign countries trying to get them "more foreign aid!"
Talk about the inmates running the asylum!
We simply cannot *afford* this government anymore that is now bought and paid for by big business.
They keep comming out with new "trade" deals that are really "Outsourcing" deals rammed through by lawyers and lobbyists!
What's the newest "trade deal" (wink, wink) they want to do this week, Peru or Colombia or S. Korea?
We're getting close to critical mass here where government has become our enemy not our friend!
Played golf with your congressman lately?
The lobbyists have!

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 1/26/2008 12:53:39 AM >


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RE: Should the U.S. claim Bankruptcy? - 1/26/2008 12:54:57 AM   
Muttling


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

One option (not that I'd endorse it) would be to default on a percentage.  Instead of saying, "Your bonds are worthless", it could be, "Your bonds are good for only 50%."  It would only kill half the debt due to bonds, but it wouldn't be as suicidial.



It wouldn't help.   It would result in a debt that we would STILL require a couple of decades to pay off given a normal economy.    Of course, the economy and the value of the dollar would be totally destroyed.   The results would be of no difference.

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RE: Should the U.S. claim Bankruptcy? - 1/26/2008 12:56:28 AM   
Muttling


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250


I couldn't give a rat's ass about Israel, Egypt, or any other foreign country and the LAST thing I want to do is give foreign countries any money!




Now you're hitting on one of my pet peeves.   Our foreign aid packages are nothing more than bribery to foreign countries and it's not buying us much (if anything).

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RE: Should the U.S. claim Bankruptcy? - 1/26/2008 1:46:43 AM   
subfever


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


The government eliminating its debt would be possible simply by ceasing borrowing long term and devoting a small amount every year to paying off maturing T Bonds.


Where would that "small amount" come from? As far as I can see, it could only come from taxation or additional borrowing.

quote:

This would gradually shrink the number of T Bonds in circulation which would be mildly deflationary.


If that "small amount" came from taxation, the effect would be, as you say, deflationary. And for those here who may not know, this means a monetary contraction (unless of course, the taxpayers added to their debt to finance the additional taxes, in which case, all we're doing is shifting the federal debt over to personal debt).

But mild, you say? The average savings rate here in the US is well under 1% of income. So there's not much leeway here. If the taxpayers reduce spending, rather than increasing debt to pay higher taxes, the domino effect to the economy is reduced sales/reduced profits/loss of stock equity/loss of jobs/etc., which itself translates to a greater load upon government, which in itself creates either more debt or a greater taxation of the remaining labor force.

quote:

However with less T Bond investment the institutional buyers would move their money into muni bonds and the like, which lower interest rates for infrastructure and other long term projects where bond sales are a reasonable way to finance the projects would become easier to finance and less of a tax burden, which ultimately is better for all of us.


In times of monetary contraction, what leads you to believe that institutional investors would move their funds into muni bonds? Is this what they did during the Great Depression? It seems to me that monetary contractions make it even more difficult for municipalities to service their debt, making mini bond investments far riskier.

But for argument's sake, let's assume that they do buy muni bonds. Bonds still create more debt with interest. Where does the money come from to pay those off? Remember, all money is still debt, and all debt is subject to interest.  

quote:

And that completely neglects that as the debt declines a balanced budget could be maintained with progressively lower tax rates which would make everyone, escpecially our descendants, happy.


Well, if you're talking lower tax rates, then the "small amount" isn't coming from the taxpayers. So where does it come from?

Under our current monetary system, the only way to pay down debt is to create even more debt. There's not enough money in the system to retire all debt. If we tried, we'd get monetary contraction. Too much contraction equals another depression.

The only way I can see to get out of this massive hole of debt, is to restructure the monetary system and issue non-debt money. 

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RE: Should the U.S. claim Bankruptcy? - 1/26/2008 2:20:20 AM   
greyangelus


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I've been reading aa rather fascinating book on this very subject tonight, "Creature of Jekyll Island" by G. Edward Griffin.  Its long and extremely lenghty and I'm not going to even into depth of it, but here's the short, short version.

The frist thing you must understand is that the economy of our nation is run using what is called "fractional-reserve banking".  This system of banking is what every single bank in the US uses, as well as pretty much the rest of the world. "Fractional-reserve" currency (such as the US dollar) is a specific kind of money and medium of exchange, of which there are basically 5 types

-Barter ( 2 people agreeing to exchange good and services based on their perception of value for said goods)
-Commodity ( Gold and silver coinage, although lots of other things has been used, cigarettes included)
-Recipt ( Paper issued in lieu of a commodity, mainly for convience reasons, with the quantity of paper issued dependent on the amount of said commodity)
-Fiat ( currency issued by decree, the only worth of which is the full faith and belief of the issuer )

.... and "fractional-reserve".  Fractional-reserve money is the transition from a receipt based money (where the quantity of paper is backed 100% by a commodity) and fiat money (where the quantity of paper is backed by 0% of anything ).    

In reciept based economy, when a bank has X amount of deposits (called "assets"), it can then lend out a Y amount of money ( debt in other words, but called "liabilities" ) up to BUT NOT over X.  So in essence, the X > Y ratio must be kept to ensure that 100% percent of liabilites can be covered by assets. 

In a Fiat based economy, Y is the amount created from "thin air" by the issuing institution simply decreeing as such ( Fiat in Latin means "let it be done").  Since the money is created from nothing, Y can expand at an exponential rate, with no X to back it up.

Fractional-reserve money is the split difference between these two forms.  In fractional-banking, bank the equation reads X/A = Y.   The A is the percentage of reserves that must be kept relative to the amount of Y.  In real numbers and assuming A is 10%,   X is equal to 10$ and Y is equal to 100$.   This percentage is hypothetical, it can go anywhere from 99% to 0.0001%, depending on who has the authority to set the percentage (In our case Congress.)


What the hell this all has to to with the economy.

This is where it gets even more complicated, even more than my supposedly short, short version, but I'll try to keep it brief.  From 1913 (the year the Federal Reserve Sytem was created) until 1973 (the year the dollar was completely removed from the gold standard), the supply of dollars was increased, with no equivalent increase in the amount of commodity used to back those dollars.  The supply of dollars was increased by lowering the percentage of assets banks were required to keep.  Here's where it gets sticky. If you increase the amount of dollars in circulation, but there is no increase in the amount of goods to buy with those dollars, what happens to the price of said goods?  Simple math says the price goes up, in other words, "Inflation".  This type of inflation is "devaluation" ( which is a lowering of the purchasing power of the currency, purchasing power meaning value ).  In order to prevent "hyperinflation" (where the money begins to devalue exponentilly), the money supply must be contracted. 

In 1973, the dollar went completely off any commodity standard and became a fiat currency, which is what its been ever since.  Since the value of fiat currency is in direct proportion to its amount in circulation (the more there is, the less it is worth), the value of the dollar continues to drop.  The only wayto hold stable this value is to increase the amount of people using this dollar, which is how the dollar became the worlds reserve currency (through the transaction of oil purchases using OPEC ).   The housing bubble going poof ( see Bear Stearns mortgage collapses this summer ) may jsut be the final straw.  Since our government works on debt, there must be something into which to plow this debt, and we're just about tapped out on things to plow it into.


The solution to basically fixing the economy is basically simple (keeping in mind the truism "the simplest things are often the hardest ones to do. )

1. The US fed must take stock of how much gold/silver or other commodity is has in hand ( gold and silver have been used historically because time does relatively little to the amount and value of the metal )
2.  Congress must pass a bill setting forth a time at which all dollars currently in circulation will be packed by gold/silver ( Fiat by reverse, as actually collecting all dollars in circulation and issuing new gold/backed money would be logistically and financially impossible).  Basically, 1$ in Federal Reserve notes is now worth 1$ in new 100% gold-backed notes.
3. Dissolve the Federal Reserve Board and amend the bill of rights to close forever the door for fiat and fractional-reserve banking (fairly easy there, it merely requires saying that all legal tender accepted by the federal government must be 100% commodity backed, using the congressional power to regulate the value of money to define what and how much that commodity is). 

Those are the easy parts.  The next 2 parts are what the Federal Board Sytem and the banks have been preventing from happening since 1913, using fractional-reserve and fiat banking.

3.  The Fed must actually balance its books.  With the free fiat money gone for good, a serious re-evalution of what the Fed does with money, with some extremely far-reaching consequences, especially in the areas of foriegn policy and defense.
4. LET THE BANKS FAIL.  A very HUGE amount of what has created this montrosity of economy is that with the current system is that the major banks will NEVER go bankrupt.  The Fed was designed to prevent this from happening from its very inception, using a "bailout" of the involved banks using T-bonds (which is basically money you and I have to pay back at some point).  Go look up the term "moral hazard" as the term applies to finance.  The very existence of the Fed (and FDIC and a host of other federal organizations) is what allows the major banks to operate in "moral hazard" with impunity.  The mortgage crisis is not really a crisis for the major players, as the Fed was designed to insulate the banks from any losses from exactly this sort of crisis.


(in reply to popeye1250)
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