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RE: Should the U.S. claim Bankruptcy? - 1/26/2008 9:19:16 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Griswold

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Muttling, yeah, bankruptcy, default, whatever name you want to give it.
If we can't pay it anyway what difference does it make?
Are we just supposed to keep pretending we can pay it?
It would be good for our economy comming out of bankruptcy with a clean slate as long as we outlaw lobbyists and lawyers in Washington as a "condition."
One thing is for certain, we cannot continue on this road we've been traveling.


This from the very guy who complains uproariously that our corporations are "bankrupting" the US worker by outsourcing, and they should be sent to jail for doing so.

(Bud...you really ought to read your own posts before you so purposefully step on your own tongue with such vigor).


Gris, who do you think gets most of that govt money that the lobbyists are stealing from us?

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to Griswold)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Should the U.S. claim Bankruptcy? - 1/26/2008 11:23:07 PM   
NeedToUseYou


Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
Status: offline 		response to original OP.

The government will never file bankruptcy, partial or fully. It is completely unnecessary, under any circumstance. If things keep going like they are, we will either have a warmonger or a socialist in the oval office for the four years after Bush. So, seeing that is the 95% outcome of the upcoming election, we are going to continue the debt train.

So, only one thing will happen, they will continue to inflate the currency faster than the rate of growth. If they want a new social program, or a new war, they'll simply increase the rate of inflation compared to growth.

It's that simple, the U.S. dollar has dismal prospects, if the status quo have their way, The status quo being Big Government Pro War Repubs, or Even Bigger Government Dems. There is no government spending reduction coming, that's a fantasy. It's all going to be financed via devaluing the currency already in circulation.

I like one of Ron Paul's ideas, and don't see any problem with it. How about having two currencies, one backed by gold or whatever commodity, and the other fiat. I really don't understand why we couldn't have a gold currency, silver currency, and the fiat dollar. The only difference really between that and now is that gains on gold or silver are taxed. Turning anything into a currency like the dollar only really involves banning taxes on gains of that currency. As in if the dollar itself increases in value relative to everything else, that is not taxed, whereas gains in gold are. Therefore the only thing that differentiates a currency from non-currency is the ability to be taxed by it's comparitive value. Currency cannot be taxed based off the mere fact that it increased in value.

It would alleve the problem of corning the market, it'd also make devaluing the fiat currency less attractive.  The way I see it the more currencies the better. Really, why not have more? Exchanging them back and forth would be trivial and if you had multiple currencies no one could corner the market on all of them(gold,silver,platinum,oil even), thus making it pointless.

(Of course I'm not talking of exchanging foreign currencies back and forth, or gains in currency held in foreign notes traded back).

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Should the U.S. claim Bankruptcy? - 1/27/2008 1:02:17 AM   
greyangelus


Posts: 192
Joined: 1/22/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

The gold or silver standard was not a panacea. We had horrible bank runs on just the rumor of a downturn in the metals market. If a currency is convertible to a precious metal then that currency's value is entirely dependent on the stability of that metals value. What happens the next time someone emulates the Hunt brothers? What happens if a new high quality mine is opened?

We need to improve monetary policy but fiat money does not always equal runaway inflation. Ours has worked reasonably well since 1973.


To the second paragraph, fiat money does always equal runaway inflation quickly followed by economic collapse, EVERY TIME.  It becomes a question of "when" rather than "if" that hyperinflation will occur.  There were literally hundreds of such attempts to introduce fiat currencies into the American colonies and later the United States.  The Wiemar Republic (bad example here though) tried fiat curency, failure. Rome eventually wen to a fiat currency, failure.  Our own Continental congress during the revoultion issued fiat money, failure (google the term "not worth a continental " )They all hyperinflated and failed in the end.   If you can find a single fiat currency that has ever lasted without hyperinflating and then causing economic collapse, small scale or large, please then enlighten me.


To the first paragraph, the value of the commodity stays the same, regardless of how its measured.  I can measure the distance from LA to New York in any number of ways, but the distance remains the same.  Your Hunt brothers example is unfortunately flawed, as the money they were using to purchase that silver was already fiat money, not commodity money.  The price of gold and silver going up or down is consequence of fiat instability and inflation, not the cause of it ( check gold prices over the last decade, as inflation and total moeny supply over the last decade has drastically expanded, so too has the price of gold.  If you figure yearly, its nearly quadrapuled since its price low in 2000 ).

quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever
Basically you're advocatig controlling the growth of the money supply by backing the physical currency only with some small amount of gold per dollar. For sake of argument lets say 1 troy ounce per $10K. First off that means each dollar is redeemable for 10 cents in gold(roughly) which is not going to do anything for consumer confidence and won't prevent the expansion of the monetary supply since the overwhelming majority of money is not actual physical currency but is the value of real estate and other investments so appreciation of investments expands the money supply without government involvement. Obviously that money is not backed by gold. Creating what is effectively two classes of dollar is an unwise thing.


Actually, I said all dollars, both electronic and physical.  Each dollar is then redeemable for a dollars amount of gold (which is congress responsibility, incidentally).  Then only thing then preventing expansion in the money supply is the total amount of gold, which can be only through discovering and mining gold (or silver, or whatever commodity you pick).  The value of the real estate remains the same (barring haggling and negotiating of course).  Appreciation of real estate and investments is one of the effects of devalution ( more money being fiated into existence means it takes more money to equal the value of those investments).

I will admit to one huge hurdle in all this though.  What do you with people that hold very signifcant deposits of gold?  To be blunt, you were correct in saying that the federal government no longer holds enough gold to make this anywhere close to equitable, as it would solely be the fed that would have to back all dollars in existence against their OWN holdings.  To say there would be an economic hiccup in the works is understatement (then again, the eventual collapse of the fiat dollar is going to pretty well collapse the entire economy anyways.....).  Quite frankly, I don't have a clue as to how to implement this.  A gold-backed dollar is grounded in sound and hisotrically proven theory.  Translating that theory into reality through the process of engineering though would be a huge endeavour.

quote:


There's too much gold in private hands. It is not in the best interests of the common people to base the monetary system on a commodity that is already concentrated in the hands of few. Isn't that where our current monetary system evolved from in the first place?


I agree with your first 2 sentences (translate gold into fiat dollars though, although who actually owns the gold at this current day is an altogether different problem).  Your correct in saying that the current monetary system did evolve from that in the first place.  The problem stems from the fact that the system evolved to KEEP that money in the hands of the few, and moreover to remove what little remained from anyone elses hands as well (see the 1933 gold confiscation).

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Should the U.S. claim Bankruptcy? - 1/27/2008 4:08:38 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

I think the people, have crated this monster where we think that everything is Government's responsibility and has shifted society away from individual responsibility.  



I disagree. I believe it was the PTB that created the monster. They saw a big opportunity with the Great Depression. It was easy to dangle a carrot in front of the hungry. Once they got their foot in the door with Social Security, they expanded their indoctrination of the masses by cleverly appealing to our fear and greed emotions. 




You have a point there.   Unfortunately it is still doom and gloom coming to the masses because the govt isn't giving enough people a free ride according to all those varied special interest groups. 


The problem is that people see the gov handing out corporate welfare like candy and if that is the way the game is to be played simply want in on the action as well.  Its really that simple.  Why should the ptb get freebees and everyone else the short end of the stick?





_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to KenDckey)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Should the U.S. claim Bankruptcy? - 1/27/2008 4:56:29 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

The gold or silver standard was not a panacea. We had horrible bank runs on just the rumor of a downturn in the metals market. If a currency is convertible to a precious metal then that currency's value is entirely dependent on the stability of that metals value. What happens the next time someone emulates the Hunt brothers? What happens if a new high quality mine is opened?

We need to improve monetary policy but fiat money does not always equal runaway inflation. Ours has worked reasonably well since 1973.

While the unrealone will froth at the mouth at the mere suggestion who would you rather have the power to cause significant inflation, the Federal Reserve Board or anonymous precious metals traders?



Whats the difference between horrible bank runs or runaway inflation?




Hyperinflation Around the Globe

quote:

United States (1812-1814, 1861-1865)
The United States has experienced two currency collapses. The first was the Continental Currency ("Not worth a Continental") the American colonists used to finance the Revolutionary War. While the Americans won their independence, their currency was destroyed in the process.

The second were the Confederation notes. In an effort to finance the civil war with the north, the Confederate States of America issued vast amounts of money. At one point, the Secretary of the Treasury recommended that counterfeit money be utilized. Anyone holding a counterfeit bill was to exchange it for a government bond. The government would then stamp it "valid" and spend it.

http://www.dollardaze.org/blog/?post_id=00107&cat_id=17




Look at what was considered a currency collapse in the past and what we have grown to accept as normal!!



Look at that site and explain how the whole freaking world can be broke and in debt at the same time?


Simple we borrow from one and lend to another.

That means we borrow from china to lend to africa who lends to syria and so forth and so on.

Its a great scam that people are too uneducated to see that we are paying interest for no other reason but to pad the pockets of BANKERS, FR, IMF etc etc.

Call it the great lending circle for lack of a better term.  Fiat money and fractional banking are kissing cuzinz since there is no DOWNWARD accountability in either.  
There is plenty of upward accountability though aint there?

Its not just the US its the whole world that has bought into this fake debt money system.


Want more?

quote:

America's Forgotten War Against the Central Banks
by Mike Hewitt

A note issued by a central bank, such as the Federal Reserve Note, is bank currency. These notes are given to the government in exchange for an interest-bearing government bond. The primary means to pay for the interest on these bonds is to borrow more bank notes, thus beginning a vicious cycle that ultimately ends with the complete destruction of the currency and bankruptcy of the nation. History is replete with such occurrences. (For a list of countries that have experienced hyperinflation click here).

This begs the question as to why such a doomed system would exist? The reason is that during the course of the arrangement, which can last for centuries, the central bankers who issue the money amass great fortunes from the large sums of interest collected. In essence it is a transfer of wealth from the many to the elite few. Government leaders prefer such a system because it does not require budgets to be balanced. It is far more politically expedient to borrow, then to directly tax the citizens.

http://www.safehaven.com/article-8658.htm




So you see DK all these things federalists like yourself and lucky stand behind support a system that is assured of total failure and collapse.

Call it frothing at the mouth if you wish but those who take the time to actually look at the chart of the value of the american currency can easily see we are headed for a total collapse if we do not get some kind of monetary, tax, and inflation reform in this country.



Back to your bank runs, we have horrible market volatility.  Explain how that is better?

Nothing happens when someone like the hunts try to hord it all.  The price of your gold goes up right along with theirs and has a stabilizing effect unlike fiat currency where you get screwed.

Gold value also goes up as inflation goes up hence it equals out and is a zero sum game meanwhile your 401k has been just about cut in 1/2 since 2001.

Can you make a run on your 401k or do they have you by the balls?  heh heh?

Then the joke is when you think you are making profits on your investments its only the value trying to come back to equalibrium with inflation and guess what?  

You pay TAXES on it as capital gains even though you have less VALUE and all that happened is made up for the increased inflation!  LOL


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
We need to improve monetary policy but fiat money does not always equal runaway inflation. Ours has worked reasonably well since 1973.


You dont really mean that do you?

With the value of our dollar quickly approaching 2 cents where it once was e whole dollar you would really label that as working  reasonably well?


Please explain how the devaluation of the dollar to below 3 cents is "working well"?



quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
While the unrealone will froth at the mouth at the mere suggestion who would you rather have the power to cause significant inflation, the Federal Reserve Board or anonymous precious metals traders?


I would have the federal reserve abolished since it is unlawfull entity, and take anon traders any day!  

That way the """"VALUE"""" of my money is stable regardless of the number attached to it!


Now..... do us all a big favor and explain just how the fluctuation of the price of specie can cause inflation???

I will answer that since I know you wont respond anyway.

You cannot make gold from nothing hence they cannot inflate it against value.  That means it is inseparable.

Your fiat debt paper they put any value they want on it any time they want because they can create it from nothing!  

They cannot create specie from nothing!


A finalo thought however..... that is why congress has the power to determine the value of weights and measure.  While we would reatain our value if the price of gold fluctuated wildly, its price against other specie would drive us insane.  Its just way easier to have congress set the price than store owners changing prices of items second by second to keep up.

Gets us right back to the constitution and why they wrote it the way they did!!





< Message edited by Real0ne -- 1/27/2008 5:15:43 AM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Should the U.S. claim Bankruptcy? - 1/27/2008 7:47:42 AM   
subfever


Posts: 2895
Joined: 5/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: greyangelus


quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever
Basically you're advocatig controlling the growth of the money supply by backing the physical currency only with some small amount of gold per dollar. For sake of argument lets say 1 troy ounce per $10K. First off that means each dollar is redeemable for 10 cents in gold(roughly) which is not going to do anything for consumer confidence and won't prevent the expansion of the monetary supply since the overwhelming majority of money is not actual physical currency but is the value of real estate and other investments so appreciation of investments expands the money supply without government involvement. Obviously that money is not backed by gold. Creating what is effectively two classes of dollar is an unwise thing.




Just for the record, the above was not my quote.

But while I'm here, I'd also like to point out for those who don't know, is that we already have two classes of money in the US. All paper currency is debt money, and all coins are non-debt money.

(in reply to greyangelus)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Should the U.S. claim Bankruptcy? - 1/27/2008 7:49:17 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		Examples of fiat money that have not resulted in hyperinflation and collapse:

All major world currencies. Every single one of them. Great Britain's Pound (hasn't actually been exchangeable for sterling since the 70's), Japnese Yen, German Mark etc. They've all floated for around 35 years. No hyperinflation and collapse.

Now to the examples of history. Wiemar Republic, not applicable to this discussion due to othe factors affecting their economy having nothing whatsoever to do with whether the money was fiat or not. The Continental was not supposed to be fiat money, it was supposed to be directly redeemable for spanish milled dollars (pieces of eight), however the Congress never purchased the required amount of silver coins but kept issuing money. They were financing a war afterall. They expanded the money supply far in excess of what any modern economist would think wise, 60% in 1775 alone. The currency was easily counterfeited and the British did so in bulk. Under these cicumstances it is quite clear that hyperinflation was inevitable even though every dollar was supposedly redeemable for a Spanish Piece of Eight. Which is actually proof that a representative currency, one backed by precious metal, is not proof against hyperinflation.

Calling for a return to a precious metal standard obscures the underlying issues of needing a balanced budget, we had deficit spending before fiat money, and correcting the trade inbalance.

(in reply to greyangelus)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Should the U.S. claim Bankruptcy? - 1/27/2008 7:58:11 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever
All paper currency is debt money, and all coins are non-debt money.

I've already told you that no US money is debt currency. This fiction is mostly being put forward by the tax protestor movement.

BTW since with the exception of the penny the value of the metal in a US Coin is several orders of magnitude below the face value of the coin they are no more hard money that paper money.

(in reply to subfever)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Should the U.S. claim Bankruptcy? - 1/27/2008 8:00:32 AM   
subfever


Posts: 2895
Joined: 5/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: greyangelus

To the second paragraph, fiat money does always equal runaway inflation quickly followed by economic collapse, EVERY TIME.  It becomes a question of "when" rather than "if" that hyperinflation will occur.  There were literally hundreds of such attempts to introduce fiat currencies into the American colonies and later the United States...    ...Our own Continental congress during the revoultion issued fiat money, failure (google the term "not worth a continental " )They all hyperinflated and failed in the end.  


The Continental failed primarily due to the massive infusion of counterfeit Continentals by the English.

quote:

If you can find a single fiat currency that has ever lasted without hyperinflating and then causing economic collapse, small scale or large, please then enlighten me.


Lincoln's Greenback currency worked exceedingly well, especially considering the magnitude of war during that time period.

(in reply to greyangelus)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Should the U.S. claim Bankruptcy? - 1/27/2008 8:08:12 AM   
subfever


Posts: 2895
Joined: 5/22/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever
All paper currency is debt money, and all coins are non-debt money.

I've already told you that no US money is debt currency. This fiction is mostly being put forward by the tax protestor movement.



That is simply not true. Paper currency is issued by the Federal Reserve, and adds to the national debt. Coins are issued by the US Treasury, and do not add to the national debt.

quote:

BTW since with the exception of the penny the value of the metal in a US Coin is several orders of magnitude below the face value of the coin they are no more hard money that paper money.


That is not true either. The metal content of both the penny and the nickel are greater than the face value.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Should the U.S. claim Bankruptcy? - 1/27/2008 8:49:29 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		Just checked and I see the nickel has increased enough to exceed the face value. That is a very recent event.

All US money is made by the US Treasury. All US money is distributed initially by the Federal Reserve system.

http://www.treas.gov/topics/currency/

Paper money is not a debt of the US government. US government debt is exclusively in the form of Treasury Bills, Treasury Notes (not money but a bond that matures in 2 to 10 years),  Treasury Bonds, Savings Bonds, TIPS and a couple of esoteric bonds whose names escapes me ATM.

How would you redeem a paper dollar if it was a debt of the US Government? It has no maturity date and is not convertible to anything else as it is simply fiat money.

(in reply to subfever)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Should the U.S. claim Bankruptcy? - 1/27/2008 8:55:19 AM   
subfever


Posts: 2895
Joined: 5/22/2004
Status: offline 		BTW... my apologies to the OP for further derailing the bankruptcy topic. Several posts ago, I made a half-assed attempt to move the related monetary system topic over to another thread, but no one followed. 

(in reply to subfever)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Should the U.S. claim Bankruptcy? - 1/27/2008 5:57:38 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Examples of fiat money that have not resulted in hyperinflation and collapse:

All major world currencies. Every single one of them. Great Britain's Pound (hasn't actually been exchangeable for sterling since the 70's), Japnese Yen, German Mark etc. They've all floated for around 35 years. No hyperinflation and collapse.

Now to the examples of history. Wiemar Republic, not applicable to this discussion due to othe factors affecting their economy having nothing whatsoever to do with whether the money was fiat or not. The Continental was not supposed to be fiat money, it was supposed to be directly redeemable for spanish milled dollars (pieces of eight), however the Congress never purchased the required amount of silver coins but kept issuing money. They were financing a war afterall. They expanded the money supply far in excess of what any modern economist would think wise, 60% in 1775 alone. The currency was easily counterfeited and the British did so in bulk. Under these cicumstances it is quite clear that hyperinflation was inevitable even though every dollar was supposedly redeemable for a Spanish Piece of Eight. Which is actually proof that a representative currency, one backed by precious metal, is not proof against hyperinflation.

Calling for a return to a precious metal standard obscures the underlying issues of needing a balanced budget, we had deficit spending before fiat money, and correcting the trade inbalance.


sure.  you can exchange money for anything "purchasable" which is entirely different than a money system based on specie.

You are aware of that are you not? 


Its unfair to try and compare the quality of a money system, the pros and cons when using unlawfull actions as part of your case in point.  Repair the unlwfull actions then make your case.

The length of time a fiat system lasts is totally irrellevant since it is solely dependant on the greed of those in charge.  THe more greed the faster the collapse, less greed can last for a few centuries, its economical rape in either case however.


quote:

Calling for a return to a precious metal standard obscures the underlying issues of needing a balanced budget, we had deficit spending before fiat money, and correcting the trade inbalance.


While we may have had "some" deficit spending which I will agree with we did not hand them a blank checkbook by giving them a fiat system where they can write endless supply of money that of course you realize is mortgages against my house and yours if you own one.

It removes the power of the people to control their government.  Sooner or later the government of old had to come to the people and "ASK" for money, it was usually sooner as creditors dont wait to long whereas now the gov is out of control that can just write a check for anything they want.

Calling for a monetary system based on specie puts inflation right in front of peoples noses so they have to deal with it on a daily basis instead of shoving it all under the carpet so our children can pay for it and keep the viscious cycle going.

Forcing of a monetary system to specie all but forces budget reform.


If this coutry would declare bankruptcy it would do a huge favor because it would bring this front and center and we would be forced to do something about it.  (but we wont, we will continue talking about how good we have it because we do not live cardboard huts lilke other with a fiat system.)




< Message edited by Real0ne -- 1/27/2008 5:59:54 PM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Should the U.S. claim Bankruptcy? - 1/27/2008 6:47:34 PM   
Griswold


Posts: 2739
Joined: 2/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: Griswold

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Muttling, yeah, bankruptcy, default, whatever name you want to give it.
If we can't pay it anyway what difference does it make?
Are we just supposed to keep pretending we can pay it?
It would be good for our economy comming out of bankruptcy with a clean slate as long as we outlaw lobbyists and lawyers in Washington as a "condition."
One thing is for certain, we cannot continue on this road we've been traveling.


This from the very guy who complains uproariously that our corporations are "bankrupting" the US worker by outsourcing, and they should be sent to jail for doing so.

(Bud...you really ought to read your own posts before you so purposefully step on your own tongue with such vigor).


Gris, who do you think gets most of that govt money that the lobbyists are stealing from us?


Uhhhhmmm....that would be Senators for $1,000.00 Alex.

What's that got to do with your comments being so contradictory (to your own previous statements) as to be ridiculous?

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 74
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