RE: Military response to National Emergency (Full Version)

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Lordandmaster -> RE: Military response to National Emergency (9/3/2005 9:25:24 AM)

Fact--700 well-dressed employees and guests of the Hyatt hotel were shunted to the head of the line when the buses finally arrived at the Superdome. That's part of the reason why 2,000 people remain holed up. This was all in the link I showed you. Did you even read it?

When a few hundred white people who have spent the days after the hurricane in a luxury hotel are placed on a bus before thousands of black people who spent those days in the Superdome, I call that racism. When the head of FEMA explains that the reason why his agency can't do any better is because he's facing a situation of "urban warfare," I call that racism. These aren't guerillas. They're people who were told to wait for buses and then not given food or water for three days.

Edited to add: And by the way, where do you get your "facts"? The 2,000 people remaining in the Superdome include many people who have been there since the beginning. How do I know? THEY WERE INTERVIEWED. Read some of the articles I've been posting here.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

I still don't see where you're getting the racism from, unless you just want to see it. And the more I learn about the situation and how this developed and spun out of control the less I am prepared to even consider that.

Fact, as of last night the superdome had been evacuated of all the people who had already been there. The 2,000 that are there now are people that have been brought in since from continuing rescue operations. So much for the report things won't improve til Sunday.




Mercnbeth -> RE: Military response to National Emergency (9/3/2005 9:30:36 AM)

quote:

When a few hundred white people who have spent the days after the hurricane in a luxury hotel are placed on a bus before thousands of black people who spent those days in the Superdome, I call that racism. When the head of FEMA explains that the reason why his agency can't do any better is because he's facing a situation of "urban warfare," I call that racism. These aren't guerillas. They're people who were told to wait for buses and then not given food or water for three days.


Only one note to this story. The person who ordered the tourists (many foreign) to the front of the line was non other than the major of New Orleans, who happens to be black. Was his order some form of self loathing racist based mentality?

[image]local://upfiles/33972/2FDC0006AB3E4E029A220FC0CCE5B4F0.jpg[/image]



Lordandmaster -> RE: Military response to National Emergency (9/3/2005 9:34:37 AM)

It's not clear why and how all this happened; the latest reports are that the Hyatt was supposed to be turned into a command-and-control station. But do you really think it's reasonable that the richest country on earth cannot get enough buses to New Orleans to evacuate the Superdome in SEVEN DAYS?

Look, you can see and believe what you want to see and believe. What I see is white people doing interviews after they've been removed to safety, and black people dying on the street in front of the convention center. I already said it may not be OVERT racism, but one thing that is coming through loud and clear is that the life of a prosperous white person is worth more than the life of a poor black person. And I'm sickened by it.



imtempting -> RE: Military response to National Emergency (9/3/2005 9:36:03 AM)

Being from another country and only seeing what news shows me it appears to be racism.

This is why many countries will not donote to the USA as everything were seeing seems to be racist. Also hearing of children getting raped and killed does not make people think the best of it at the moment.

Most people I speak too in OZ and on the internet think its racism and think the army should move in and get the people out.



Mercnbeth -> RE: Military response to National Emergency (9/3/2005 9:50:48 AM)

78% of the residents in NO are black. I would guess that nearly 100% of the poor without the resources to leave were black. The percentages would indicate the percentages of people you see. Sure there were more black looter, becuase there are more blacks. But there are also more black police, firemen, and rescue workers. The firefighters held down by a sniper were in the majority black.

There is a lot of missmangement going on down there. For instance, you explain why the mayor didn't use the buses shown in the picture below? Anyway, I don't think race is a predominant factor in any decision being made.

[image]local://upfiles/33972/185CFA987D1C47DCA90ACBF4844DA8E6.jpg[/image]



Lordandmaster -> RE: Military response to National Emergency (9/3/2005 11:44:14 AM)

Well, mostly I agree with you, but I would state it this way: race is a predominant factor in the decisions that have NOT been made. I don't believe in my heart that the response would have been this crappy if the hurricane had devastated a nice rich white city.

As I've emphasized, I don't think any of this is OVERT racism. It's the much more pernicious kind of racism: the racism that people don't even recognize in themselves. I don't think the head of FEMA says to himself, "I hate black people, so we're going to take our sweet time with this." I think he says to himself, "We are doing the best we can, and they are just going to have to accept what we can give." If the victims were white, he'd have an entirely different attitude about it.

Really, in our massively Christian nation, THIS is the best we can do for the suffering poor?

I don't think I'm ever going to change my mind about this, and the images I saw this week are etched in my brain forever. The mayor of New Orleans, whether or not he ordered the evacuation of the Hyatt hotel, agrees with the thrust of what I'm saying--and has said so in much more pointed terms than I.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Anyway, I don't think race is a predominant factor in any decision being made.




Mercnbeth -> RE: Military response to National Emergency (9/3/2005 12:07:53 PM)

quote:

Really, in our massively Christian nation, THIS is the best we can do for the suffering poor?


Now if you said that money and society status had/has something to do with setting a priority I'd agree 100%.



BlkTallFullfig -> RE: Military response to National Emergency (9/3/2005 1:21:45 PM)

quote:

Only one note to this story. The person who ordered the tourists (many foreign) to the front of the line was non other than the major of New Orleans, who happens to be black. Was his order some form of self loathing racist based mentality?[/quote]
Yes!
Is that enough or do I need to explain this happens frequently, especially among who have been bought and paid for. M
P.S. Merc, assuming your heart is in the right place (since you've never given me reason to think otherwise), if you want to understand what LaM is talking about when he says this
quote:

I don't think any of this is OVERT racism. It's the much more pernicious kind of racism: the racism that people don't even recognize in themselves. I don't think the head of FEMA says to himself, "I hate black people, so we're going to take our sweet time with this." I think he says to himself, "We are doing the best we can, and they are just going to have to accept what we can give." If the victims were white, he'd have an entirely different attitude about it.
May I humbly suggest reading "Killing Rage, Ending Racism" by Bell Hooks, and there's another nice link from an author I've read a little before. http://www.anarchistblackcross.org/org/wp/peggy.html
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0865713383/recoveringracist/002-9570393-9585610
M



Lordandmaster -> RE: Military response to National Emergency (9/3/2005 1:34:27 PM)

I really don't think you can untangle the two so easily, Merc. I'd like to believe it were so simple, but I don't. People in the U.S. are much more likely to sit back and watch poor black people with dying babies than poor white people with dying babies, ESPECIALLY in the South. It's not as though I'm happy about all this, and I'm not saying this just to be controversial and piss people off.

I mean, just consider an offhanded comment the other day by Kathleen Blanco, the Governor of Louisiana, who said that part of the reason why so many people were trapped is that they didn't leave the city when they were warned to do so. That is pure racism. As these people have said over and over in interviews, they didn't have the MEANS to leave the city--unlike all the fashionable white folk who are now watching the footage on TV. When white people are victims, everyone assumes they are just victims and the whole country rallies to their cause. When black people are victims, everyone starts asking hateful questions. How did they get into that situation in the first place? Why didn't they leave when they had the chance? Why didn't they do more to help themselves after the hurricane hit? Why do they have to rely on the government to save them?

It's such bullshit.

Edited to add: And, you know, I'm white, comfortable, and live in the Northeast. No vested interests here. I'm just pissed off.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Now if you said that money and society status had/has something to do with setting a priority I'd agree 100%.




snippens -> RE: Military response to National Emergency (9/3/2005 1:39:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster
When a few hundred white people who have spent the days after the hurricane in a luxury hotel are placed on a bus before thousands of black people who spent those days in the Superdome, I call that racism.


I would certainly call it questionable judgement to move the Hyatt residents to the front of the line. But in fact we don't know the racial composition of the Hyatt people.

And LaM, the article you quoted did say:
"Mayor Ray Nagin has used the hotel as a base since it sits across the street from city hall, and there were reports the hotel was cleared with priority to make room for police, firefighters and other officials."

Perhaps this explanation should get some attention.



Lordandmaster -> RE: Military response to National Emergency (9/3/2005 1:39:59 PM)

We already went over that. You should read the whole thread before you comment.



mnottertail -> RE: Military response to National Emergency (9/3/2005 1:52:49 PM)

Even here, voters first. (the right kinda voters, of course).........
This country, alothough coming a long way and legislating the piss out of it is still racially based. Not because of inherent predjudice dealing with cuture or tanning solutions. And call me racist if you will, but a great majority of black people actually admire Abraham Lincoln. Consider actual history or read Before the Mayflower...............


Of course this response lands on Lordandmaster, but is not directed or in opposition to anything he has said....for the most part we agree on the nefarious political behavior of the united states. It is posted here because and only because I am a lazy bastard who is not gonna fint the OP that I wanna reply to.

Ron



snippens -> RE: Military response to National Emergency (9/3/2005 2:00:05 PM)

Padriag mentioned buses being made available before the storm hit (I would like to hear more about that) , and Mercnbeth asked why the school buses shown in the photo were not used.

It leaves me wondering what plans were drawn up by FEMA to evacuate the 135,000 people in New Orleans who lacked transportation? From what onceburned posted, the federal government planned on doing nothing.

Is that decision at all classist or racist? Would the federal government have come up with plan if the people involved were 135,000 upper middle class white people?



lovingmaster45 -> RE: Military response to National Emergency (9/3/2005 2:10:05 PM)

Here is the sociologist in me coming out folks.

My friend who was flown off the roof of the Hyatt was mixed race. He was WEALTHY.
In the USA and everywhere else I know of...it is MONEY that talks; BS walks.

Those of you who are mixing up class with race have been deluded for years and playing into the hands of the ruling elite who use "racism" to divide those of you with similar economic/life interests. It is happening here.



AAkasha -> RE: Military response to National Emergency (9/3/2005 2:15:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: snippens

Padriag mentioned buses being made available before the storm hit (I would like to hear more about that) , and Mercnbeth asked why the school buses shown in the photo were not used.

It leaves me wondering what plans were drawn up by FEMA to evacuate the 135,000 people in New Orleans who lacked transportation? From what onceburned posted, the federal government planned on doing nothing.

Is that decision at all classist or racist? Would the federal government have come up with plan if the people involved were 135,000 upper middle class white people?


In all their disaster planning, FEMA knew there would be 100,000 or more people stranded there who were in poverty or too elderly or sick, but didn't plan for what to do with them.

They did simulations as recent as last year with "Hurricane Pam" as a computer simulation case.

"Brian Wolshon, an engineering professor at Louisiana State University who served as a consultant on the state's evacuation plan, said little attention was paid to moving out New Orleans's "low-mobility" population - the elderly, the infirm and the poor without cars or other means of fleeing the city, about 100,000 people.

At disaster planning meetings, he said, "the answer was often silence."

From http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/02/national/nationalspecial/02response.html


Akasha




Lordandmaster -> RE: Military response to National Emergency (9/3/2005 2:22:52 PM)

Laughing...how on earth does it matter that you're a sociologist? You sound like a certain So-and-so with her B.A. in philosophy.

At any rate, a sociologist ought to know that the "ruling elite" is precisely the people I'm talking about. The head of FEMA. The Governor of Lousiana. (Oh, and, like, not to mention the President of the United States.) What "ruling elite" do you mean, Mr. Sociologist?

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingmaster45

Here is the sociologist in me coming out folks.

My friend who was flown off the roof of the Hyatt was mixed race. He was WEALTHY.
In the USA and everywhere else I know of...it is MONEY that talks; BS walks.

Those of you who are mixing up class with race have been deluded for years and playing into the hands of the ruling elite who use "racism" to divide those of you with similar economic/life interests. It is happening here.




mnottertail -> RE: Military response to National Emergency (9/3/2005 2:26:08 PM)

Here is the end of the joke. We think we can run the world, I have said this repeatedly, we can not. Move the troops from Iraq at some fucking billions of dollars a day, rebuild and repair the fucking dyke surrounding New Orleans (average six feet under water) and put military oversight on them. We cannot solve a gas problem, having the shit laying in oil fields dormant throughout the US, having the abiltiy to learn, research and implement alternative fuels, and yadda yadda yadda.....blach blah blah....and I am so fucking sick of this ignorant using and slow undoing of the populous...........

We have in our shortsigtedness given a stone to our children in our haste to pass the uncomfortable positions off for 4 years and 4 more years, and vote as a populous against our best interest for a fucking fool and self-interested mutherfucker, simply because he believes in god, so at least he has a good heart or whatever asswipe caused us to be in this situation..........

Infrastructure...........

Ah, fuck it.....enough for one post.

Ron

Oh, and although I agree with the spirit of your post; 45 Colin Powell is not a nigger and Tom Simpson at the local hardware store is........

But when Colin goes to sleep at night.....he is too.

I do not have the honor of being a black human being but I have the honor of being a human being and in the end..........it is a distinction without a difference and we been fucking with that question waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay to long.



brightspot -> RE: Military response to National Emergency (9/3/2005 3:42:07 PM)

quote:

Now if you said that money and society status had/has something to do with setting a priority I'd agree 100%.


I believe it is more of a classist issue myself, the poor, no matter the color are suffering, and it is true the majority of those poor in NO are black. What you have not seen yet is the people not even noticed yet in the out lying areas, who did make it to the dome.

I believe Louisana was denied when they said they needed funds to fix the levee's in 2002. The Army Corp of Engineers told thm it would never stand up to bad hurricane, let alone a catagory 4. That is a Shame!

*Brightspot



LadyAngelika -> RE: Military response to National Emergency (9/3/2005 5:11:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: brightspot

quote:

Now if you said that money and society status had/has something to do with setting a priority I'd agree 100%.


I believe it is more of a classist issue myself, the poor, no matter the color are suffering, and it is true the majority of those poor in NO are black.


It's interesting that you (you being the last few posters) are debating whether it's a class issue or a race issue. But the situation is a little more complex then that. From my outsider perspective, I would say that it is in part a case of double discrimination of race & class.

People of colour with money might have more opportunities then people of colour without money. But they don't have as many opportunities of caucasians with money.

And people of colour without money are definitely going to be the victims of intolerance, more so then caucasians without money.

Is this right? Absolutely not. Do I find it deplorable? Absolutely. Do I try to stay away from this type of discrimination in my everyday interactions with people? To the best of my ability. And I can be hopeful that I'll rub off on a few people.

As I said earlier, my heart goes out to anyone suffering a tragedy such as this one regardless of colour, class, creed, etc.

- LA






lovingmaster45 -> RE: Military response to National Emergency (9/3/2005 5:22:48 PM)

What "ruling elite" do you mean, Mr. Sociologist?

I am referring to the "leaders". The ones who hold public office but dance to the instructions of a ruling class that has always held sway in the USA. Do you think it was an accident that the cancelling of the oil import agreement we had with Mexico enriched the wealthy Texas oilmen who got W elected?

Do you think it was a open bidding process which gave Haliburton the contracts in Iraq? Do you think it was an accident that monies werfe skimmed off from the oil-for-food program? Do you think it is racism which motivates all this?

It is money honey. Wake up and look for the money trail. Who profits...who pays?

The people who were evacuated from the high class hotels were and will continue to be necessary to the economic well-being of NO and to La. The ones left behind are an economic drain. Always have been and statistically always will be. The few exceptions are trotted out to prove that the "system" works.

If all you see is color the the colors to look for are green and gold; not black/red/white/yellow.



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