RE: Declaw or not declaw your cat? (Full Version)

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girlinterrupted -> RE: Declaw or not declaw your cat? (1/27/2008 7:30:53 AM)

I don't post often, but I will share my personal experience with Luca - he is a normal grey tabby that I adopted at the humaine society in my area when he was 8 weeks old about 6 years ago...  My little man choose me, so I could do nothing more than bring him home with me (i wanted a female cat, not a kitten, much less a male).. For some reason, he could jump ontop of a 6 foot tall bookcase, but he refused to jump onto my lap... so he climbed, using his claws.... At that time, I was having some medical issues which made any open 'sore' suseptable to infections rather quickly, and easy antibiotics weren't cutting it... Also, I think my boy in some way is part jack rabbit... I swear, the pounds of pressure he uses to jump off of you with his hind legs would make anyone lose their breath!!!

So, my doctor told me that i had to make the cat stop 'clawing' me as he climbed up me... I spoke to several animal trainers and vets.. the only thing we could realistically due the quickest was to do a full declaw on him.... So, we did - not the same day, but the next day - he was his normal happy kitten self... he learned to jump on my lap instead of claw up my leg to get to my lap.... my medical issues went away...

6 years later - he is still a very happy cat - a completely indoor cat (he will stand at an open door and just look outside - he might want to investigate it, but he's a pussy - really... lol) He has never had any other medical issues... his life is full and happy... about the only behavioral problems he has developed is he does tend to 'nibble' to show his feelings, it was until about 2 years ago that he started doing the paw and purr thing...

My boy will live a much healthier life than one who must deal with the riggers of outdoor life.... the ones that have to come in contact with other animals and domesticated pets that could carry any sort of thing/disease...  Everyone is entitled to their opinion - and this is mine.



kittinSol -> RE: Declaw or not declaw your cat? (1/27/2008 7:32:44 AM)

I'll add that before  moving to America, I had never heard of declawing as a routine procedure for cats.

Which is ironic, considering people here live on vast amounts of land (compared to Europe, anyway).

Why keep cats as 'indoor pets' only? Get a stuffed cabbage instead! If a cat should die outside from the result of fighting... that was his or her destiny. Cats are a little piece of the wild in our boring domesticity. Why take it away from them?



Foititis -> RE: Declaw or not declaw your cat? (1/27/2008 7:36:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
Why keep cats as 'indoor pets' only? Get a stuffed cabbage instead! If a cat should die outside from the result of fighting... that was his or her destiny. Cats are a little piece of the wild in our boring domesticity. Why take it away from them?

Because they actively hunt/kill native animals who are a part of ecosystem and thus contribute to the dilapidation of the biodiversity of an area.  




MissMorrigan -> RE: Declaw or not declaw your cat? (1/27/2008 7:36:41 AM)

Docking of tails was also done to prevent tail-fly among working dogs, and to prevent 'whipping' of legs by an excitable dog. Wherein my previous posts have I applied my views to non-domesticated animals? I refer, throughout, to domesticated pets and my views remain that they are performed for cosmetic/convenient reasons, not for the wellbeing of the animal. And you're right, they're not in the same category, but only insofar as one is performed under anaesthetic, the other not.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Foititis
Tail docking is hardly an abhorrent practice by any stretch of the imagination, indeed the reason many dogs were docked originally was because they were cattle dogs and their tails often became caught under hoof. Now granted aesthetic tail docking is a moral grey area for most people (myself included) however it hardly falls into the same category as de-clawing a cat, if only for major discrepancy in financial cost and effort involved.



sambamanslilgirl -> RE: Declaw or not declaw your cat? (1/27/2008 7:38:55 AM)

unless you like having your furniture turned into scratching posts, it's best to have your kitty declawed.  if you don't want kitty declawed, get a scratching post of its own and train it (very well) not to scratch on the furniture.

good luck



xxblushesxx -> RE: Declaw or not declaw your cat? (1/27/2008 7:41:29 AM)

You do know that 'declawing' a cat involves not only removal of the claws (think fingernails...ewww) it also removes the top 'digit' of their 'fingers'.
I wouldn't do that to a living creature. Oh, and btw, we have 3 cats (was four until last week, Claytie passed on at age 16) and two dogs, and our furniture is not clawed to hell. I'm not really sure why, though.

~Christina



kittinSol -> RE: Declaw or not declaw your cat? (1/27/2008 7:43:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Foititis

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
Why keep cats as 'indoor pets' only? Get a stuffed cabbage instead! If a cat should die outside from the result of fighting... that was his or her destiny. Cats are a little piece of the wild in our boring domesticity. Why take it away from them?

Because they actively hunt/kill native animals who are a part of ecosystem and thus contribute to the dilapidation of the biodiversity of an area.  




I didn't know that cats were a vermin: one learns everyday.



petdave -> RE: Declaw or not declaw your cat? (1/27/2008 7:50:10 AM)

One of our cats has torn the back of our $900 leather couch to shreds. i've gotten four different kinds of scratching posts, sprayed her with water (solution- she does it when we're not around), put tape on it... Finally said, oh well, it's still comfortable to sit on. The same cat also kneads my legs (has to be bare skin... she'll push shorts, blankets, towels, etc out of the way) until she draws blood. Oh well, legs still work [:D]

i have a lot of respect for our vet, who only treats cats, and is very much a "cat person"- you can tell she really cares about her patients. She absolutely will not declaw. Honestly, that carries a lot of weight with me.

As far as letting cats outside... We fostered four young kittens for a short time, that had been hanging out in the parking lot behind my wife's office. We kept them in a large cage on the deck (it was April, the weather was perfect) so that we wouldn't have to worry about them transmitting anything to our indoor cats.

i came out one morning to find the cage pulled open. Three of the kittens were missing, and the fourth had literally been torn apart right outside our door. It was one of the most horrible things i've ever seen. Raccoon. The area also has stray dogs and the occasional coyote, and i swear i heard a damn wild boar out in the trees one day. So, no outdoors.

Footnote- we recovered the other three kittens after two anxious days, and brought them to a shelter. i trapped the raccoon and shot it.



camille65 -> RE: Declaw or not declaw your cat? (1/27/2008 7:50:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: Foititis

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
Why keep cats as 'indoor pets' only? Get a stuffed cabbage instead! If a cat should die outside from the result of fighting... that was his or her destiny. Cats are a little piece of the wild in our boring domesticity. Why take it away from them?

Because they actively hunt/kill native animals who are a part of ecosystem and thus contribute to the dilapidation of the biodiversity of an area.  




I didn't know that cats were a vermin: one learns everyday.
 On outdoor kitties. kittinSol it really is a problem, if you have the time I posted a few links on page 3 of this thread about the issue of domestic and feral cats simply decimating the songbird population. I detest, despise and am terrified of birds but I don't want them all destroyed!40% gone, even if that is halved it is too much. I've owned (yeah okay, I've been owned) by about 30 felines over my lifetime, a mix of indoor and outdoor cats. When it comes to lifespan, the indoor cat wins paws down over the ones that have 'freedom'. I see so many dead cats on the roads. Living out in the country I see so many cats just dumped, dumped like garbage. I hate taking them to the Humane Society because I know there are too many up for adoption already, but I won't leave them to the mercy of a life of outdoor Michigan weather either.



Foititis -> RE: Declaw or not declaw your cat? (1/27/2008 7:51:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissMorrigan

Docking of tails was also done to prevent tail-fly among working dogs, and to prevent 'whipping' of legs by an excitable dog. Wherein my previous posts have I applied my views to non-domesticated animals? I refer, throughout, to domesticated pets and my views remain that they are performed for cosmetic/convenient reasons, not for the wellbeing of the animal. And you're right, they're not in the same category, but only insofar as one is performed under anaesthetic, the other not.


I really don't want to come off as a promoter of tail docking (because I’m not) but let’s get some realism into your last statement. De-clawing a cat is a relatively costly, complex and time consuming elective operation that requires anywhere from three days to a week to recover from. Tail docking is a cheap and easy procedure that requires very little to no recovery time. Yes they're both cosmetic procedures but its really like comparing botox to a nose job. 
   



YesMistressIrish -> RE: Declaw or not declaw your cat? (1/27/2008 7:51:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: camille65

 http://library.fws.gov/Bird_Publications/songbrd.html
University of Wisconsin ornithologist, Dr. Santley Temple estimates that 20-150 million songbirds are killed each year by rural cats in Wisconsin alone.
Feline predation is not "natural." Cats were domesticated by the ancient Egyptians and taken throughout the world by the Romans. Cats were brought to North America in the 1800's to control rats. The "tabby" that sits curled up on your couch is not a natural predator and has never been in the natural food chain in the Western Hemisphere.
Cats are a serious threat to fledglings, birds roosting at night and birds on a nest. Research shows that de-clawing cats and bell collars do not prevent them from killing birds and other small animals. For healthy cats and wild birds, cats should not be allowed to roam free.

http://birdadvocates.blogspot.com/2007/05/whats-killing-songbirds.html
In Silence of the Songbirds, biologist Bridget Stutchbury (left) argues that songbirds are disappearing from our skies – an environmental danger sign equivalent to canaries in a coal mine.
"We’ve lost nearly half the birds that filled our skies just 40 years ago,"

http://www.petplace.com/cats/the-great-debate-indoor-versus-outdoor-cats/page1.aspx

Risks of outdoor life include exposure to infectious diseases, such as feline leukemia, feline immunodeficiency virus, feline infectious peritonitis, and rabies; injury or death occurring on busy roads; and attacks by predators. Not only does keeping cats indoors protect their health, it also protects the lives of countless birds that they would otherwise kill. In some areas, cats have severely reduced the populations of certain songbirds - almost to the point of extinction.
http://www.petplace.com/cats/outdoor-dangers/page1.aspx
Whether pedigreed or random-bred, the vast majority of cats can be perfectly happy indoors, calmly watching nature from the safety of their home, as long as a stimulating environment is provided.

In fact, most United States cat experts – the Cat Fanciers Association, humane organizations and others – are continually trying to reach the public with the message that keeping a cat indoors protects him from disease and all manner and means of danger.


camille,
Thanks for all the great info you posted above. I was going to post similar links, and now I don't have to. [;)]

The numerous bird species destruction by cats is something I think many people are not aware of.

I wanted to add something. I used to have a smaller fenced back yard. Both of my cats had been declawed in the front when they were spayed as kittens by a really good vet.  They never seemed to suffer at all, fully recovered in a few days and still had their back claws for protection. My antique furntiure was very grateful. We had cats when I was a kid and they tore up the furniture something fierce.

The two cats I mentioned above enjoyed being with me out in my garden, however I would make sure they stayed in the house at dawn and dusk which are the 2 most prevelant times for bird destruction by cats. Neither of them went for birds at all, and were very happy to play indoors with each other.

On another note: One cat I had was declawed in the front by a vet who was new to me. It was completely different! She was not comfy, and walked a little funny. It really upset me, and of course I would speak up when anyone was looking for a good kitty vet. I sure didn't give him a positive recommendation!

Next time I am not sure if I will declaw my kittens in the front or not. Hopefully I won't feel a need to do this.

If I ever get another cat I am going to get two, so they have a playmate. All this kitty talk makes me miss my cats.  [8|]

Pets by adoption; that works for me, and them. [;)]

Irish



kittinSol -> RE: Declaw or not declaw your cat? (1/27/2008 8:01:33 AM)

But Camille... A cat can live indoors for comfort and still go outside for fun and frolics. That's how my cat Cyrus lives (he's been with us for two months; he adopted us at the SPCA) and he's as happy as a pig in ... well, you get my drift. One magical word: catflap, so that he can come and go as he pleases. The first few weeks of him being here, he was miserable, staying indoors all day, as we wanted him to become accustomed to his new surroundings. Now that he's able to go out, his life is made :-) .

Cyrus has wicked claws: a near-prehensible thumb and massive paws. But I would never think of mutilating him in such a way. I'm sure people have their reasons and all that, but in the end, the adoption of cats isn't mandatory. If people see cats' natural state as a nuisance... I don't understand why they wish to have them in their lives in the first place.

I can see I'm going to be a CCL when I'm old [:D] .

PS: I would like to add that whilst it's a real shame so many cats die in the wild, there are ways to limit their population that would ensure fewer cats perish at the wheels of large vehicles and at the claws of other wild animals.

PPS: As for declawing (the word alone makes me shudder), I can see how it would limit the cat population, by preventing the cats from fighting back if under attack. Which surely defeats the initial purpose? It only works if one declaws a cat in order to keep it inside all the time, at which point I ask again: why not get a gold fish instead? 



MissMorrigan -> RE: Declaw or not declaw your cat? (1/27/2008 8:03:41 AM)

People really ought to take their own advice, including you. I actually stated one is a surgical procedure, the other not. I'm fully aware of how tail docking is performed and it's a rarity that it is performed by a vet. But good to see that you did agree with me, in albeit a clumsy manner. Well done! However, back to the original point, which is that for domesticated PETS (remember that word) it is an unnecessary procedure and performed purely for cosmetic purposes, although some kid themselves it's to stop excitable dogs whipping children with their tails... much in the same way many cat owners convince themselves it's a necessary procedure. Sometimes it IS necessary, ie broken dog's tail that won't heal, irreparably damaged claws for a variety of reasons so removal is the only option. But there is a huge difference between necessity for the animal's welfare, and a desire for the animal's owner.



myflutterby79 -> RE: Declaw or not declaw your cat? (1/27/2008 8:08:11 AM)

The other issue with outdoor cats is one a lot of people don't think about.  I like cats but my neighbors both have outdoor cats.  One feeds her cats near our shared fence and they come into our front yard to poop, which wouldn't be THAT bad if she didn't literally have about 13 cats eating there each night.  That's a lot of poop.  Second, my other neighbor threw a screaming hissing fit at someone who hit her black cat who ran in front of her car in the middle of the night.  It's very traumatizing to hit and animal to begin with, then having someone scream at you because you hit their animal that doesn't belong in the street and that was impossible to see in the dark with no street lights is something that shouldn't be added to the trauma by a pet owner. Letting any animal roam free is irresponsible at best.  And her other cat got mauled by a dog.  And she blames everyone but herself for just letting her cats run free.  The other issue we have in our area (we have an unusual number of people who buy cats and then turn them loose on the world) is feline STD, which are a slow and painful death.  I don't let my cat outside without a leash just like you wouldn't let your dog go on the street for a run.  It's no different than turning any other animal loose and hoping for the best.  Its ridiculous.
As for declawing, I've had a declawed cat and while it's a little pricey and there's recovery time involved, as long as your cat never goes outside alone (they can't defend themselves) it's safe for them.  Plus, you have the added benefit of not having to restrain yourself when your cat forgoes the kitty scratch toys for expensive furniture or someone's leg.  It's just simpler



kittinSol -> RE: Declaw or not declaw your cat? (1/27/2008 8:14:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: myflutterby79

As for declawing, I've had a declawed cat and while it's a little pricey and there's recovery time involved, as long as your cat never goes outside alone (they can't defend themselves) it's safe for them.  Plus, you have the added benefit of not having to restrain yourself when your cat forgoes the kitty scratch toys for expensive furniture or someone's leg.  It's just simpler



You're one of these people whom I believe would have been happier with a gold fish. Or a stuffed toy.

This one's white and fluffy, with a pink ribbon. Chocolate-box purrrfect.

http://www.amazon.com/Ty-Destiny-Fluffy-White-Cat/dp/B000FQBMR4/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&s=toys-and-games&qid=1201450444&sr=1-9



YesMistressIrish -> RE: Declaw or not declaw your cat? (1/27/2008 8:19:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissMorrigan

As an aside, Venus. You said you don't like circuses, and I am with you on that, so check out Cirque du Soleil. Very talented people.

quote:

ORIGINAL: venusinblu


I feel the same way about ciruses and Cirque du Soliel rocks! I think I've seen almost every one and got to see one in Vegas years ago.

I don't think having cats declawed in the front as a mere 'convienence'. It saved my house and family heirloom antiques from being shredded.
I know this is a really hot topic for most and  I wanted to put my 2 cents in and... certainly not to upset anyone.

Imo, as usual.



eyesopened -> RE: Declaw or not declaw your cat? (1/27/2008 8:23:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: myflutterby79

The other issue with outdoor cats is one a lot of people don't think about.  I like cats but my neighbors both have outdoor cats.  One feeds her cats near our shared fence and they come into our front yard to poop, which wouldn't be THAT bad if she didn't literally have about 13 cats eating there each night.  That's a lot of poop.  Second, my other neighbor threw a screaming hissing fit at someone who hit her black cat who ran in front of her car in the middle of the night.  It's very traumatizing to hit and animal to begin with, then having someone scream at you because you hit their animal that doesn't belong in the street and that was impossible to see in the dark with no street lights is something that shouldn't be added to the trauma by a pet owner. Letting any animal roam free is irresponsible at best.  And her other cat got mauled by a dog.  And she blames everyone but herself for just letting her cats run free.  The other issue we have in our area (we have an unusual number of people who buy cats and then turn them loose on the world) is feline STD, which are a slow and painful death.  I don't let my cat outside without a leash just like you wouldn't let your dog go on the street for a run.  It's no different than turning any other animal loose and hoping for the best.  Its ridiculous.
As for declawing, I've had a declawed cat and while it's a little pricey and there's recovery time involved, as long as your cat never goes outside alone (they can't defend themselves) it's safe for them.  Plus, you have the added benefit of not having to restrain yourself when your cat forgoes the kitty scratch toys for expensive furniture or someone's leg.  It's just simpler


Not to mention, let a cat get bit by a mosquito carrying heartworm.... death is horrible!  Happened to one of my cats who i let outside to 'frolic' and another cat ingested a flea and got a tapeworm...i won't let my cats outside for any reason now.



kittinSol -> RE: Declaw or not declaw your cat? (1/27/2008 8:28:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

Not to mention, let a cat get bit by a mosquito carrying heartworm.... death is horrible!  Happened to one of my cats who i let outside to 'frolic' and another cat ingested a flea and got a tapeworm...i won't let my cats outside for any reason now.



Death is one of life's risks.



MissMorrigan -> RE: Declaw or not declaw your cat? (1/27/2008 8:28:40 AM)

MistressIrish, you shouldn't be upsetting anyone with your views, they're yours. People will always either agree/disagree with others' opinions. In a previous post of mine I said a good friend of mine in the US has had her cats declawed, she makes no excuses for it, it's legal for her to do so and despite us disagreeing (sometimes heatedly, but never disrespectfully), I accept they are her pets and she has a right to make those choices for them. Debating is what I love about these boards, they provide so many insights from such a broad spectrum of people.

I would LOVE to see Cirque du Soleil! Now I'm envious! I've only ever seen them on television and as yet, haven't had the opportunity of seeing them live.



xxblushesxx -> RE: Declaw or not declaw your cat? (1/27/2008 8:31:29 AM)

Our house is filled with beautiful antiques, heirlooms, and...cats (with claws).
I don't think 'simpler' should be the deciding factor on whether to amputate an animal's parts. REALLY.
There are times it may be necessary.
But mostly, I think people are only thinking of themselves when they do this.
Would you do this (or allow this done) to your um, for the sake of convenience? They'd probably get in a lot less trouble that way...

~Christina



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