Listening and Courtesy vs. Flaming

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pinkpleasures -> Listening and Courtesy vs. Flaming (9/2/2005 10:11:23 AM)
i was taught a conflict resolution technique known as "active listening". Using this technique, the listener responds first by repeating what he/she has heard, and the speaker can correct any misunderstandings. After that, the listener speaks, stating his/her opinion and feelings, e.g., anger, frustration, etc. In fully understanding one another, people in conflict can identify areas of agreement; feel "heard" and respected; and when areas of conflict are truely identified, reach an accord. http://www.colorado.edu/conflict/peace/treatment/activel.htm It seems to me that there is an unnecessarially high level of conflict on the boards. In my opinion (and nobody has to agree) part of it stems from ill-will towards a certain member or members, and thus, a need to respond to everything they post in a negative way. In other cases, i think there is a "flashpoint" in some posts -- such as use of the word "bitch" -- that sends some members into orbit. Their responses focus on this flashpoint, and not on what has been written. Lastly, there seems to be disagreement over whether we owe one another any respect or courtesy when replying. i think -- and this is just me -- that too many members feel free to be discourteous if they disagree with a post. There seems to be no "reasonable people can disagree" motif here at all. (In my opinion.) i think insulting people -- regardless of whether or not the Mods chastise A/anyone -- is a low form of discourse that rather stains the thread and serves only to hijack it from the Op post. It escapes me why personal issues cannot be dealt with by way of email, and off the boards. It also seems to me alot of U/us would like to discuss something substantive. Something about BDSM that we do not yet understand, that our more experienced members could inform U/us about. In no way do i claim to be superior to A/anyone; or to be innocent of insulting people and otherwise failing to elevate a thread. i am posting this because i feel there are enough people -- and Mods -- who wish the threads could say on-point as to a substantive matter and the ad hominem attacks could be stopped, or reduced. At this point, i am ending my post, and invite an experienced person to introduce a subject W/we might not A/all understand...and hope for a bit of active listening and a bit higher form of discourse. pinkpleasures

OscarHargraves -> RE: Listening and Courtesy vs. Flaming (9/2/2005 11:25:21 AM)
Pink, I do agree that there are way to many people here "listening with their mouth open". I was always taught to be couteous and shut-up when listening to someone else; not start in arguing because I didn't like one word or their tone. We should all stop and THINK before we flame someone for sting their opinion here. After all, that's what these forums are all about, ..... opinions. Nobody here has all the answers. If I post a question and I get thirty answers they are not all going to be right for me. The idea is that one or two may be just the thing that I needed and didn't think of myself. They may work for ME but not for anyone else. As for the flaming, ........sigh well you just have to understand that there are small people here too who can't rise above their need to look bigger by putting someone else down. It's a shame and it really makes them look bad to others but they have to figure that out for themselves. The nice thing is that there are lots of really intelligent people here too and I can read the good stuff and disregard the others. I'm all for any thread that can teach me something. I haven't been here long enough yet to dare to start my own thread, but I'm learning a great deal and that time will come.

DesertRat -> RE: Listening and Courtesy vs. Flaming (9/2/2005 11:28:01 AM)
I can see how that would be a useful technique, but also that it would not guarantee conflict resolution. As for whether there is too much conflict on the boards? That is too subjective for me to judge. I don't think there is an inordinate amount. I even think that it is a sign of health that we take on issues that people feel strongly about. If you want to see people get lathered up about nothing, go to the Lexus owners' forum and read some the arguments over the relative merits of a '96 vs a '97 ES300...or better yet...synthetic vs non-synth motor oil....death threats...hot flames... I think we're actually pretty well behaved here. Bob

OsideGirl -> RE: Listening and Courtesy vs. Flaming (9/2/2005 11:41:21 AM)
This is a public board and for the price of a password anybody can post. That does not mean, however, that we have to find all posts appropriate. It also does not mean that we have to agree with the post. Disagreeing with a post is not a personal attack or flame. Some people seem to have lost track of that.

BeMyDogBitch -> RE: Listening and Courtesy vs. Flaming (9/2/2005 11:54:08 AM)
Yeah you are definitely on to something there. A good litmus test I use to find out the general attitude about a new site is to post something controversial in the discussions forum and watch the reaction. I did so in the BDSM discussion forum and sure enough, the shit hit the fan! What I find to be most ironic is the amount of outrage and intolerance towards my username, my profile, my photo, and even the state I live in, coming from a website that mainstream American culture would find out-of-bounds and unacceptable. The BDSM "community" seems to have forgotten that most of us are here to find an environment where our kinks and so-called "perversities" are not only accepted but embraced. I suppose there will always be those in any sub-culture who want to regulate others behavior according to their own perception of what is acceptable or not. Even anarchists have "rules"....

Kasia -> RE: Listening and Courtesy vs. Flaming (9/2/2005 11:57:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pinkpleasures It seems to me that there is an unnecessarially high level of conflict on the boards. pinkpleasures Actually I noticed that boards without some level of conflict die very soon. I used to run one forum and made a mistake of being too hard moderator - I deleted any posts I found a bit insulting and even members who tended to get into conflict with others. Guess what? My forum was getting less and less posts, even from those that agreed with me. Seemed we had nothing to talk about anymore since we all agreed on everything. I think this board is not worse than any others, and for really insulting posts/people there are moderators. And it seems to me so far they are doing quite good job here.

pinkpleasures -> RE: Listening and Courtesy vs. Flaming (9/2/2005 12:39:39 PM)
Now this is interesting. Apparently few people agree with me; yet i know at least some of Y/you have seen warnings from the Mods to lower the flames and stay on-point. If W/we are so good at posting, why would this happen? My personal gripe -- and nobody has to agree with me -- is that it seems to me when people disagree here, there is no respect or courtesy shown the member to whom T/they are speaking. This is not true of E/everyone, but of many members. Disagreement about ideas is the whole point of the boards; so i am bumfuddled as to why some people cannot do so with a modicum of courtesy. pinkpleasures

OscarHargraves -> RE: Listening and Courtesy vs. Flaming (9/2/2005 1:31:57 PM)
I think the courtesy a person uses here (or any other written forum) speaks a lot about that person. The ones that are rude and crass probably don't know much about manners and rarely use them. Or maybe 'cause they aren't standing in front of us they just don't care. Either way I feel they are a product of their environment and the best we can do is ignore them. I just hope that other people realize this and don't follow suit.

luvdragonx -> RE: Listening and Courtesy vs. Flaming (9/2/2005 2:02:31 PM)
Food for thought: Sugar-coating does not = courtesy. Being matter of fact does not = rude. Disagreeing with someone - and stating so - should not have to be prefaced or concluded with an apology, or other pandering to protect someone's ego. It's a reasonable assumption that the people participating on these forums are adults, and thus, need no hand holding or 'me too' cheerleading from other members. Yeah, it's nice to have sometimes, but it shouldn't be necessary. Likewise, we can discuss and debate till the cows come home, and be able to do so without name calling or contemptuous 'dart throwing' that sometimes occurs. I'll be the first one to admit I think it's hilarious when some people get so bent out of shape over words written on a computer screen - this goes for both the dart throwers and their targets. Causing conflict is fun for some folks. My kid is one of those people who likes to irritate others for personal amusement. (He gave all his teachers the blues except one, because she understood what he was doing and didn't feed into it. She is and will always be his favorite teacher.) So I know first hand what people like that will do for 'fun'. But it does get old after a while. I haven't been a target as of yet (at least IMO), though there were a couple of times on a couple of threads where I got a little hot under the collar. One in particular where the less than flowery response was directed at me. Had it been face to face, I may have said something different, but since I have the benefit of time to think about my words before I type them, that's what I did. I made sure to leave emotion out of my replies and stick to the subject matter. I didn't mention my perceptions on being 'attacked' nor did I return fire. Guess what happened? The thread stayed on topic and good discourse came of it. It's not that hard. It takes a minimum of two people to participate in a flame war. If you feel that somone is attacking you, be the bigger person and don't bother addressing it. Ignore it like you would do any other bit of BS and make EVERYONE happy.

OsideGirl -> RE: Listening and Courtesy vs. Flaming (9/2/2005 2:06:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luvdragonx Food for thought: Sugar-coating does not = courtesy. Being matter of fact does not = rude. Disagreeing with someone - and stating so - should not have to be prefaced or concluded with an apology, or other pandering to protect someone's ego. It's a reasonable assumption that the people participating on these forums are adults, and thus, need no hand holding or 'me too' cheerleading from other members. Yeah, it's nice to have sometimes, but it shouldn't be necessary. I'm gonna hold your hand 'cause that was very well said.

LadyAngelika -> RE: Listening and Courtesy vs. Flaming (9/2/2005 2:12:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OsideGirl quote: ORIGINAL: luvdragonx Food for thought: Sugar-coating does not = courtesy. Being matter of fact does not = rude. Disagreeing with someone - and stating so - should not have to be prefaced or concluded with an apology, or other pandering to protect someone's ego. It's a reasonable assumption that the people participating on these forums are adults, and thus, need no hand holding or 'me too' cheerleading from other members. Yeah, it's nice to have sometimes, but it shouldn't be necessary. I'm gonna hold your hand 'cause that was very well said. And I'm going to hold the other. To be honest, a massive pet peeve of mine is when someone prefaces their opinion with "I'm sorry but..." I'll show you a sorry butt!! ;-) - LA

luvdragonx -> RE: Listening and Courtesy vs. Flaming (9/2/2005 2:19:14 PM)
Gimme a T! Gimme an H! Gimme an A....................ok that will take too long. Thank You! (Does backflip with Bobbi while holding hands)

luvdragonx -> RE: Listening and Courtesy vs. Flaming (9/2/2005 2:26:16 PM)
quote: And I'm going to hold the other. To be honest, a massive pet peeve of mine is when someone prefaces their opinion with "I'm sorry but..." I'll show you a sorry butt!! ;-) - LA I have this vision of skipping off through a field of daisies hand-in-hand.........ok, I need caffiene back in my life. I know exactly what you mean about the 'I'm sorry, but' or 'I hate to tell you, but', or 'I don't mean to be rude, but'. Every time I read those disclaimers, the first thing I think is, no, you aren't sorry, you LOVE telling me and you're just dying to be rude. That stuff just smacks of insincerity. I'd rather someone be blunt and truthful than really sweet and disingenuous. Hey, since we're all holding hands, I bet we can get some Wonder Twins power going [:D]

BlkTallFullfig -> RE: Listening and Courtesy vs. Flaming (9/2/2005 2:45:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luvdragonx Food for thought: Sugar-coating does not = courtesy. Being matter of fact does not = rude. Disagreeing with someone - and stating so - should not have to be prefaced or concluded with an apology, or other pandering to protect someone's ego. It's a reasonable assumption that the people participating on these forums are adults, and thus, need no hand holding or 'me too' cheerleading from other members. Yeah, it's nice to have sometimes, but it shouldn't be necessary. I'm gonna hold your hand 'cause that was very well said. And I'm going to hold the other. To be honest, a massive pet peeve of mine is when someone prefaces their opinion with "I'm sorry but..." I'll show you a sorry butt!! ;-) - LA What am I going to hold? Or do I stand and boss everyone around and watch? I used to try and always be gentle to a fault when speaking, because I noticed that sometimes people are afraid of straight honesty. Than I became friends with a lady who was slightly older, more confident, and accused me of "sugarcoating shit" when I would give her feedback, and it was true. I wasn't trying to sound ultrasensitive and full of crap, but in retrospect I did. quote: Every time I read those disclaimers, the first thing I think is, no, you aren't sorry, you LOVE telling me and you're just dying to be rude. That stuff just smacks of insincerity. I'd rather someone be blunt and truthful than really sweet and disingenuous. This is why I feel I'm more honest than I've ever been, in that if I am going to speak, it'll be what's in my heart/mind, not some cleaned up version for the benefit of the listener. I will do one disclaimer: I still believe it's important to be kind (whenever possible), and tactful when speaking, but always sincerely, honestly. What I have done since that lesson is limit the number of people with whom I will have honest/any discourse. I'm either speaking to friends and family who trust me to be honest and know me to be kind, or I'm keeping the exchanges on a superficial level with people who don't know me and can't handle direct delivery. M

luvdragonx -> RE: Listening and Courtesy vs. Flaming (9/2/2005 2:53:24 PM)
quote: What I have done since that lesson is limit the number of people with whom I will have honest/any discourse. I'm either speaking to friends and family who trust me to be honest and know me to be kind, or I'm keeping the exchanges on a superficial level with people who don't know me and can't handle direct delivery. M That is a really good idea, and probably more than a hundred people (myself included) can take that advice and run with it. I think the trap a lot of folks fall into is when they try really hard to sanitize what they say, they expect others to put that same effort into how they speak. When it doesn't happen, feelings may be hurt and all those who choose not to go through all those mental hoops are seen as discourteous or rude.

OsideGirl -> RE: Listening and Courtesy vs. Flaming (9/2/2005 3:56:28 PM)
I'm a blunt person and I tell it like I see it. If you're making an ass out of yourself, I'm going to tell you. I won't be unkind about it, but I'll tell you none the less. Just because I don't wrap it in pretty words and fluff, doesn't mean I'm rude. Matter of fact, the directness is sometimes the only thing that penetrates into the minds of some of the misty eyed novice submissives who threw away their common sense when they got involved with D/s BDSM. (Whew, run on sentence) And the strange part is....the majority of people that have issues with my directness are the "sugar-coaters".

Gauge -> RE: Listening and Courtesy vs. Flaming (9/2/2005 5:01:02 PM)
quote: I know exactly what you mean about the 'I'm sorry, but' or 'I hate to tell you, but', or 'I don't mean to be rude, but'. Every time I read those disclaimers, the first thing I think is, no, you aren't sorry, you LOVE telling me and you're just dying to be rude. That stuff just smacks of insincerity. I'd rather someone be blunt and truthful than really sweet and disingenuous. I'm sorry, but I don't agree with you. There are people who, when posting an opposing point of view with some meat to it, feel that it is necessary to preface what they say with a disclaimer of sorts. I like to think that I am blunt and to the point, but with respect for the other person's point of view. Therefore when I offer a position that is totally contrary to someone else, I like to state that I am not trying to be rude. If that makes me insincere, so be it. Too often being straightforward and honest when having a difference of opinion is looked at as flaming. Personally, I think that is lame because if you expect to get a group of people together to discuss a topic and that things won't get a little heated if there are strong opinions for both sides, than you are being naive. The normal ebb and flow of discussion on message boards needs a little conflict to keep the interest in a thread. Conflict is normal and healthy. When it gets to name calling and regresses into a 3rd grade scene from recess... well, that is when it is out of hand.

darkinshadows -> RE: Listening and Courtesy vs. Flaming (9/2/2005 5:33:23 PM)
quote: I know exactly what you mean about the 'I'm sorry, but' or 'I hate to tell you, but', or 'I don't mean to be rude, but'. Every time I read those disclaimers, the first thing I think is, no, you aren't sorry, you LOVE telling me and you're just dying to be rude. That stuff just smacks of insincerity. I'd rather someone be blunt and truthful than really sweet and disingenuous. Nope. Wrong and total bollocks.(Godz - how can you tell I am british?) Hows that for a blunt and truthful response?[;)] Seriously though, your statement is huge generalisation. Some people dont use those words to allow them the ability to be rude. Some people use those words as a different meaning. If I am saying, 'I dont mean to be rude', its not that I dont mean to be rude - but I am not being rude. Big difference. Some people, which is quite evident by some of the responses on the forums, cannot associate a genuine response from a personal attack. I dont use it as a disclaimer, I use it as a fact. How the other person takes it, is up to them after that, and for someone to assume that what is said is just an excuse is actually showing themselves as terrible at communicating IMO. Peace and Love

LadyAngelika -> RE: Listening and Courtesy vs. Flaming (9/2/2005 5:52:28 PM)
quote: Big difference. Some people, which is quite evident by some of the responses on the forums, cannot associate a genuine response from a personal attack. You are right. Usually I can distinguish someone's intention by the context, though I have been known to read someone the wrong way. A lot of nuances can get lost in written communication. Earlier, when I said that I didn't like the "I'm sorry but..." I didn't mean it in the same way that luvdragonx interpreted it. Ironic, no? I should have been more clear it unnerves me because I don't like when people apologise for their opinions. You have an opinion, you should say it with confidence, assurance and respect. Then there is no reason to be sorry for it. - LA

luvdragonx -> RE: Listening and Courtesy vs. Flaming (9/2/2005 6:22:19 PM)
quote: I'm sorry, but I don't agree with you. Why are you sorry for disagreeing with me? Your disagreement doesn't offend me in the slightest, no need to apologize. Are you truly sorry for being in disagreement? Then why disagree at all? That's what I'm talking about. There is a difference between being blunt and being abrasive, and the line is oft times very fine. You'll notice that in my post I specifically stated MY perception of those 'disclaimers - I didn't say that's the way things actually were. You may say you're not trying to be rude when offering a dissenting opinion, but for ME, having a dissenting opinion is not the same as being rude, so the disclaimer isn't necessaryfor me. A lot of times, I've seen these words in preface to statements that were clearly meant to offend/sound rude/disparage another. When they are used to offset the intended insult, they are insincere.

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