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bi sub CDs; a question - 1/30/2008 1:07:51 PM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		well - this bombed in the "Submissive/Slave" section - so I'll try it here. I dont know, maybe they all hang out here? we certainly seem to get a big response on CD subjects here. Unless none of them can answer.... or want to answer......

Hi All

At the risk of starting yet another crossdressing thread, I yet start this one - because I'd really like to get my head around this aspect in particular. Its an aspect I've come across many times now and one which is spread wall to wall across the internet, but still dont fully understand, and given my background I get asked lots of questions on it by concerned or nonplussed wives.

What interests me is the motivation driving some ostensibly heterosexual males who crossdresss to not just take a fantasy interest in but also to seek out and enact sexual relations with other males - other crossdressed males and/or non crossdressed males.

I have several theories;
1) being crossdressed gives "permission" for this type of crossdresser to indulge otherwise suppressed bisexual orientation. Where the partner is also crossdressed, doubly so. The reasoning being that if either partner "is a girl" then its not really the bad thing he's been brought up to believe.
2) the crossdresser is taking the portrayal/experience of being female a step futher than just the clothes and mannerisms, seeking to make their "inner woman" more real through sexual interactions from the female perspective. Or at least what the crossdresser imagines to be the female perspective.
3) where there is also a submissive element in the crossdressing, there is a combination of the above two theories; whereas in everyday life the crossdresser would never submit to another male, he feels permission to do so when crossdressed, whether the other male is crossdressed too, or not. And this submission takes very specific forms in the provision of oral sex and the receipt of anal sex.
4) there could be an element of loneliness, "my wife doesnt understand me" and so on, and the crossdresser would prefer to do his thing with a natural genetic woman but cant for whatever reason - another crossdressed male who appears to be female provides a surrogate for her.

But still, these theories are not satisfactory as far as I'm concerned - and it may be impossible to pin down every explanation, and definitely impossible to come up with a single explanation.

The other element to throw into the pot is the nature of bisexual interest / enactment in this area. Whilst I've come across many crossdressers within this aspect who have an interest in giving oral and/or receiving anal sex in these circumstances (taking a supposedly female role?) there seem to be few interested in the other side of that coin apart from as reciprocation on quid pro quo basis. And also there is the matter of kissing - whilst sexual acts are high on the agenda in this aspect of crossdressing, very few such crossdressers I've come across would even consider kissing another male, whether or not one or both was crossdressed. 

So, over to you - and please, I'm not looking for value judgements from anyone on this. We all have our value judgements, and we've heard them ad nauseam on almost every other crossdressing thread already. I'm looking for explanations - which may hopefully help us to understand all this better and maybe, who knows, change our value judgements.

And yes, this concerns an aspect of crossdressing, crossdressers and their motivations and I realise enough to know that the above does not apply to every crossdresser!

E


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RE: bi sub CDs; a question - 1/30/2008 1:13:58 PM   
MstrssPassion


Posts: 2444
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: West Palm Beach, FL
Status: offline 		simple answer

gender (regardless of expressed or identifying or genetic) does not define orientation

Also... if these genetic males are having sexual relations with other genetic men this is gay sex... being dressed does not change this fact regardless how deep their denial runs


Or..............

Maybe the individual does classify under some form of GID & just have not embraced it






< Message edited by MstrssPassion -- 1/30/2008 1:17:40 PM >

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RE: bi sub CDs; a question - 1/30/2008 1:14:54 PM   
chiaThePet


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Status: offline 		Hi LadyE,

Well, I feel that......crap......damn cat........got a runner.....I'll get back to you.

chia* (the pet)

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RE: bi sub CDs; a question - 1/30/2008 2:01:53 PM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		I really want to understand this stuff - and its not just idle curiosity

Yes, gender, sex and sexuality are sometimes related but not directly connected.

And I dont think these CDs count as gay (at least as I see it), repressed or not - because there isnt a romantic interest there for other males; they wont even kiss another male on the lips so I dont see how they can really be gay or even fully bi.

MsP - could you please elaborate on your point about GID? Because thats another related aspect (not part of this particular aspect but often associated) of this CD expression - an almost determination to have GID. I see this as possibly another form of justification for the activity in the participant's mind to overcome what he normally finds shameful, but........

E

PS - nice to see you back MsP by the way!

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RE: bi sub CDs; a question - 1/30/2008 3:32:55 PM   
faerytattoodgirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrssPassion

simple answer

gender (regardless of expressed or identifying or genetic) does not define orientation

Also... if these genetic males are having sexual relations with other genetic men this is gay sex... being dressed does not change this fact regardless how deep their denial runs



that is 100% right on the money.  but i have never met a cd who was NOT straight.  most cd's do it because its a fetish and nothing sexual.  thats what it is like in toronto.  alot of these are drag queens that do kareoke on the weekend.


gender and sexuality no relation, no connection...nothing ..they are completely different things. 


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RE: bi sub CDs; a question - 1/30/2008 6:16:06 PM   
spinntja


Posts: 31
Joined: 9/13/2004
Status: offline 		Now, would it not be interesting if it were somehow an affirmation of feminity? The ultimate in passing, to attract a man. OK, maybe not a straight one, but a drop of fantasy can go a long way.

That's a wild guess, though. If you are asked this by wives, is there not a cd of this flavor out there you can ask directly? And do, please, share the answer. I'm all curious now. -- SJ

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RE: bi sub CDs; a question - 1/30/2008 6:19:21 PM   
tasha_tart


Posts: 385
Joined: 2/20/2004
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline 		Lady E:
 
Good question.
 
Though I was "dressed" the first time I met my sweetie (who is pre-op, non-full-time TS) and discovered my bi side, I don't need to be dressed to give myself "permission", if you will.
 
In fact, since "embracing my bisexuality" as she puts it, I've hardly dressed at all.  I suppose one could argue that makes me "gay" rather than "bi", but I don't really care.
 
Our first "encounter", for lack of a better word, started with kissing (in the car...LOL), and continued with both of us giving and receiving, so I think I've defied several of your examples.
 
But really, what difference does it make?  If someone wants to label himself bi rather than gay, who does it hurt?  As long as his hypocrisy doesn't extend to gay-bashing in his spare time, let him call himself whatever he likes.

Just my two cents.
 
Tasha
 
((edited to add:  This reply was aimed at Lady E's original post.))

 

< Message edited by tasha_tart -- 1/30/2008 6:39:09 PM >

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RE: bi sub CDs; a question - 1/30/2008 6:33:37 PM   
MstrssPassion


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From: West Palm Beach, FL
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or me to comment further would take the thread completely off topic

let's see where it goes for now

< Message edited by MstrssPassion -- 1/30/2008 6:34:13 PM >

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RE: bi sub CDs; a question - 1/30/2008 6:37:49 PM   
tasha_tart


Posts: 385
Joined: 2/20/2004
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: faerytattoodgirl

that is 100% right on the money.  but i have never met a cd who was NOT straight.  most cd's do it because its a fetish and nothing sexual.  thats what it is like in toronto.  alot of these are drag queens that do kareoke on the weekend.


gender and sexuality no relation, no connection...nothing ..they are completely different things. 



I'll go along with most CDs being straight; that has also been my experience.
 
I will agree that many CDs, of my acquaintance at least, get nothing sexual from dressing.  It is much more a matter being comfortable with themselves.  But, if they are getting nothing sexual from it, it does not fit the definition of fetish.  I'm not saying that there aren't crossdressing fetishists; just that I haven't come across them.
 
As for drag queens...if we are talking "true" (please don't hammer me over that particular word!) drag queens, we are talking a whole sub-culture.  Drag queens, and drag culture, were around long before it was anywhere near acceptable for a CD to go out in public.  A drag queen is much more likely to be gay than a CD, and the few drag queens I've had anything to do with have very little regard for CDs.
 
Just my two cents.
 
Tasha

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RE: bi sub CDs; a question - 1/31/2008 12:20:58 AM   
MaamJay


Posts: 2101
Joined: 9/2/2005
Status: offline 		Throwing in My 2c worth ...
My ex hubby is CD but straight sexually. He doesn't find men sexually attractive at all. He isn't prepared to interact sexually with a man whether dressed or not. He still wants to be with women ... but he prefers to be with them when dressed as he is more turned on that way. I could handle the stockings and panties in bed ... but the high stilettos were a tad hazardous LOL! He started wearing his mother's shoes when he was 6 and she had to be away from the family home for quite some time. Now he's nicknamed "Imelda" for his collection of between 50 and 100 pairs! He has about 3 pairs of "boy shoes" for work! He is so much an obligate CD that he will change his boy shoes to girl shoes for a 5 minute drive in the car from work to a shop ... then change back to boy shoes to go into the shop ... change them again in the car ... change them again ... you get the picture! He's particularly fond of wearing them in the car as that was his only "safe place" to wear them for a long time, till he met Me. It always amused Me that he would come home and change INTO high heels with a sigh of relief ... I would change OUT of them with the same relief LOL! One thing that did get annoying was the constant clomping or clittety-clop of heels on hard floors, have to say I haven't missed that at all this past year!

He has a few other associated fetishes ... water being the main one. High heels and water ... heaven! We went out "puddle jumping" in storms a few times. We weren't wearing welly boots LOL! He had special shoes he would wear in the shower or in the swimming pool (ones he didn't mind getting water damaged). Most people put bathers (swimsuit, swimming costume ... call it what you will!) on to get in the pool ... Master and I skinny-dipped ... he would put on silky lacy panties, stay up stockings and high heels! It was very definitely sexual for him, he'd get the hardest of hard ons! Even watching a movie or an ad which shows a female in the rain ... especially their feet and shoes ... would give him a rise. He wasn't impotent when not dressed ... but it took a lot more work to get him up ... and I am sure that the eyes closed meant there was some heavy fantasy movies playing in his mind to achieve it. So I would consider it a fetish. He also loved wearing fem articles under boy clothes ... wore knee hi hosiery instead of (or under!) male socks ... women's panties instead of boy jocks ... about the only time he didn't have a single fem thing on was when he wore his racing motorbike leathers! That only from fear if he fell off ... he'd be sprung in the medical centre! Yes ... he was a complex person in that way ... his nickname was leathers and lace for a while! One of his heroes in motorcycling was Mike Duff who became Michelle!

He was most definitely NOT sub ... way too vain and self-interested for that. It was always all about him ... and he had just about zero trust in anyone possibly having his best interests at heart. He quite enjoyed the scene as it was an opportunity to dress and be admired. For him, S & M definitely meant "Stand & Model"! It took him wayyyy longer to dress for a play party than it did Me! And he'd be running in and out ... which shoes go with this skirt? Dark or light stockings? Have you any clip on earrings that go with this? Can you put nail polish on for me? He rarely got into the whole make-up thing ... basically, he was an ugly woman! But he started getting acrylic nails done and liked having them polished with bright reds, pinks and purples for play parties. The day he forgot he had them polished the night before and went to the local Bunnings (hardware store) was kinda funny!  The only other play he got into was rubber ... he got a rubber suit he enjoyed wearing ... with heels of course! And that was about the only way I could spank or flog him ... through the rubber. He has an interest in transgender people ... but I don't think he'd actually go that way, he has said he doesn't feel that "inner female" thing.

OK, psychologically ... I asked him several times but he hadn't figured it out for himself. From observation over 12 years, I think for him the driver is a desire to emulate women while at the same time, verbally belittling them. My job was never as important, I didn't earn as much (typical here really despite My having a very good wage), My commitments were never as significant as his ... yada yada yada. It's like he wants something ... but feels threatened about wanting it ... so tries to tear it down to his level. He doesn't really fit any of your theories Lady Ellen! It's way more than a fantasy interest, but not a way of interacting sexually with other males. I began by being interested, finding it fun, supporting and extending it ... that was when vanilla ... as a Domme, in the situation where he had begged to become My sub in order to finally learn something about selflessness, about putting another before oneself (all other methods had failed yet HE was the one who originally and continually espoused the desire to learn this) ... well it was a major impediment to that! I wound up being sick of it, sick of his slavery to IT instead of to Me. All that clomping and preening and vanity just drove Me nuts. I would be EXTREMELY wary of starting up a relationship with another CD since I am now only seriously interested in having a 24/7 sub/slave, and I want them to be focused on serving Me.

Not sure if this has helped the discussion though!
Maam Jay aka violet[A]

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RE: bi sub CDs; a question - 1/31/2008 2:39:53 AM   
iwearpanties


Posts: 509
Joined: 7/21/2005
Status: offline 		MaamJay

i will say its sounds as if you went thur a great deal or thigns daily .as submissive  and panty wearing male ive crossdressed but not 24/7.   24/ 7   panties yes but shoes and dress every day i dont .. so i can under stand why some Mistress / Dommes are frustarted with Cds . when im wearing all i wnat too do is make sure the Domme / Dom is happy and satistfied .  my needs would be seocnd or not even thoguth of ...

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RE: bi sub CDs; a question - 1/31/2008 3:03:43 AM   
Lashra


Posts: 4900
Joined: 2/9/2006
Status: offline 		I've spoken to my sub (who is a cd) about having sex with another male. At first he said he would never do it but as time has gone on he has stated that  he might if I wanted it. But he did point out that he would never submit to another male, that the other male would have to be the one submitting to him. I think he feels that he would have to retain something of his "male dominant" role because frankly that is what he has been taught nearly all his life.

So from this conversation with my sub I gathered that in his case he will always willing submit to me (dressed or not) but if put with another man, he would definately take the dominant role with that other person.

Personally I believe that most people are bisexual it is just that we have been taught that  it is wrong and that we must make a choice, with hetero pretty much being made for us. I think that your post has a lot of truth in it. I think that crossdressing can free a man's mind enough that if he does have bisexual tendancies that these could come to the surface and it could open the gate of possibility.

I think many of us would act on our impulses, our darker desires if you will, if the circumstances are just right.

I hope this helped at least somewhat.

~Lashra


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RE: bi sub CDs; a question - 1/31/2008 3:32:11 AM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: spinntja

Now, would it not be interesting if it were somehow an affirmation of feminity? The ultimate in passing, to attract a man. OK, maybe not a straight one, but a drop of fantasy can go a long way.

That's a wild guess, though. If you are asked this by wives, is there not a cd of this flavor out there you can ask directly? And do, please, share the answer. I'm all curious now. -- SJ


Thanks to everyone who has responded so far

The reason I want to find out about all this is because I know a cd who fits into this aspect, and I'm getting questions from his wife that I cant answer very well. She's been supportive of his dressing but now he wants to fulfil fantasies within this aspect and is actively seeking to arrange liasons to enable that; he's quite up front with it. To me its infidelity and to her its at least very uncomfortable, but in the end I'm not his wife and she is and she loves him - but theyre both my friends and he's a good guy.

The reason I'm hoping for some enlightenment here on the subject is that whilst I dont understand it, neither I nor his wife are entirely convinced that he understands it either. We do have a plan to sit down and talk about it at some stage with him, but before then I need to understand it better.

I guess my theories, apart from (4) are derived from what I understand of what I know so far in this particular case. Of course, he may be a unique case, but I'm hoping not and that someone will be able to shed light on it all.

E

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RE: bi sub CDs; a question - 1/31/2008 5:35:05 AM   
bobipanti


Posts: 87
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Status: offline 		I have been a CD for many years; in the past two years I have felt more trans gendered and have the desire to be a woman. When dressed I feel my inner femininity come forth and I feel that I begin to feel like and think like the woman in my soul. Being dressed gives me feelings of euphoria with my feminine side taking over my body. I want to read woman's magazines and explore which clothes would work for me. Being dressed gives me a boost to become the hidden woman within.

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RE: bi sub CDs; a question - 1/31/2008 5:39:48 AM   
SolangeRichards


Posts: 170
Joined: 5/8/2005
Status: offline 		I think the reasons you mentioned in your original post can possibly apply to many different people, in many different situations.

I'm wondering if crossdressing for your friend is simply just a vehicle to explore bisexuality?  He is curious about sex with a male, which may be something, to him, only a woman does, so......he "becomes" a woman.

His dressing though has become destructive however.  It is the discomfort you mention his wife has with the direction he is taking it in.

I would think he needs to deal with his home situation first before embarking on this new journey into his sexuality.

In any case, I'm going to bet he will find the reality of his sex life as a female to be very different from his fantasy imagining of it





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RE: bi sub CDs; a question - 1/31/2008 7:40:22 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Hi SR

Absolutely agree with your first point - this is such a complex area there may not be any easy answers.

Your second point really hits home to what I'm thinking - but he was cd since childhood and its only recently that he's brought up these desires. But then its also only recently that he's had the freedom within a relationship to cd at all so it may be something he's always felt but never felt comfortable revealing still less seeking out, before - or it may be something thats evolved since he's had the freedom to cd; he's passed the limitation that prevented him from dressing, and now he's looking for something new thats "forbidden"?

And yes, the home situation is whats potentially at risk here and I dont want to see them in troubles. To me it seems crazy of him to be pursuing his desires like this and risking what is the jackpot prize for dozens of submissive crossdressers on here - a dominant lady who loves him and allows him to cd. Yet if its something he has to do then..... And so I'd like to try to understand it all better you know? Because as a TS friend of theirs, each seems to look to me for insight - and I dont have much on this subject.

E

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RE: bi sub CDs; a question - 1/31/2008 8:27:37 AM   
diaperedbaby


Posts: 158
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Status: offline 		I think there in lies your answer. The dynamics of wants is so vast, it is really hard to compartmentalize a specific thing.
I have met many CD'ers, TS/TV's and I can't say there has been any common denominator among them other than their mode of dress.

< Message edited by diaperedbaby -- 1/31/2008 8:28:08 AM >

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RE: bi sub CDs; a question - 1/31/2008 9:59:16 AM   
herpet1313


Posts: 68
Joined: 9/18/2005
Status: offline 		Lady Ellen:
 Interesting thread.
 i am a happily married man who engages in some degree of cross dressing every day, even if only the panties i am made to wear, everday, by my dominant wife.
 Judging from all i have read on this subject, i don't think it is possible to pigeon-hole all CD's under any one of your possible theories. At 52 years of age, if i've learned anything in life, it's that we, as a human species, are all unique individuals. This uniqueness extends to our sexual selves.
 That being said, i would come closest to your 3rd theory for there is a definite submissive aspect to my own desires and needs. There is also a humiliation factor involved. Sometimes when we go out for dinner or a drink, i am told to add a bit of eyeliner and mascara. i am sprayed with her favorite cologne and off we go.
 i am not exactly sure how gay or bi is defined. i do not lust after men and would never submit to them on a one on one basis. But i have been cuckoled a few times, kneeling silently just feet away, and won't deny the intense subspace i entered when instructed to the perform clean up duties afterwards. Some would say that any such activity is gay and that i am just in denial if i think it anything but. i disagree. i think being gay would involve passionate and intimate one on one involvement that would include kissing, holding hands and tender moments. i have absolutely no desire nor could i never go there. That being said, if told to do so, i would have no problem pleasing another man sexually.
 From adolesence on, i always knew i was somewhat different that most men. i think it was only my inert desire to please the women in my life, and my wanting to be "one of the guys," an alpha male, that allowed me to take the  gentle/aggresive approach in lovemaking. Even though i was never all that comfortable in that role, i learned to do so if only to please those women who were part of my earlier life.
 i am so lucky that i found someone who has helped me find my true identity and allowed me, to be me. Occasional cross dressing is a part of what and who i am.    

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RE: bi sub CDs; a question - 1/31/2008 10:02:31 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		thanks Herpet - interesting

E

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RE: bi sub CDs; a question - 1/31/2008 1:26:37 PM   
MstrssPassion


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From: West Palm Beach, FL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: diaperedbaby

I think there in lies your answer. The dynamics of wants is so vast, it is really hard to compartmentalize a specific thing.
I have met many CD'ers, TS/TV's and I can't say there has been any common denominator among them other than their mode of dress.


What exactly is a "mode of dress"


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