RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care

RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid

Message

sappatoti -> RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care (1/30/2008 7:01:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EponasChylde Universal health care is the WORSE thing that could ever happen to the middle class American. What will happen is EVERYBODY (including the lazy bums, crack ho's, etc) will have health care but the health care quality overall will be mediocre and they'll be less and less likely to cover elective procedures. Right now, those of us with decent jobs have great health care and the losers have nothing...which is fine with me. It's called Capitalism and it's the cornerstone of America. Those who work hard and do well succeed and prosper...the lazy ones suffer and are miserable. The last thing we need is to give the government more power over our lives. Want good health care? Get a good job. Or suffer. Doesn't matter one way or another to me, because I happen to have excellent health care that only costs me $66/month. Do not ask me to pay taxes to cover the health care of drug addicts, crack whores, and lazy people who don't want to work. I did have an excellent job. Good pay and health insurance costs shared by the employer and employees. It cost about $200/month. The company received a notice from it's insurer that it was no longer covering smaller businesses with fewer than 50 people, and they would have to find another carrier. My employer searched and found out that just about all of the major carriers suddenly had a similar policy, so the search went to smaller insurers who did not have the clout to make the same deals with medical practitioners as did the big carriers. My employer had no choice and signed up; result was my cost of health insurance went from $200/month to $350/month, and so did my employer's contribution go up. I had a relapse of my continuing medical problems, and when the bills hit the insurer, they cancelled my employer's policy. The reason was that had the insurer known that I was "one of those" with chronic neurological problems, they would have not insured me. So, my employer's hunt for another carrier went on. They finally found one who would insure the company, but only if I, personally, would agree to waivers that I would not submit any medical claims having anything to do with my neurological condition to them. I did so knowing that at least the rest of the company would have insurance. I moved on to another job in another city. When it came time for me to sign up for insurance after the probationary period, I was informed that their health insurance carrier, a large company, had reviewed my records and considered me "uninsurable." That company was bought out by another and I was one of the first to be downsized. Since then, on every job interview I have been on, my credentials look good right up to the point where they run a background check on my medical past. It's a terrible thing to be turned down for a job because the employer is being told by their insurance company that I am "uninsurable," despite my willingness to sign waivers. So, please tell me how this is Capitalism working at its best? I certainly did not have a say when this neuro condition afflicted me, and I certainly have no control over the fact that neurologists cannot agree on the best method to bring it under control. So, because of factors beyond my control, I am forever determined to be "uninsurable." That's not Capitalism... that's borderline fascism.

thompsonx -> RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care (1/30/2008 7:17:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Stephann I'm not saying they have it good; consider where most of their medical technology comes from? Where their best doctors are trained? Our health care is the best in the world. Singapore has the best health care in the world according to most estimates...lowest infant mortality rate and highest longevity rate from birth....universal health care? Yes. Would I live there? Not a chance. We expect everyone in this country to have access to it. The Italians, arguably, build the best automobiles in the world. Best in what sense? Perhaps some of the fastest but hardly the most reliable. Yet how many of those Italians own one of those machines? Until we can accept that not everyone in this country can have the health care equivalent of a Lamborghini or a Ferrari, we must continue to either accept some people will drive Lamborghini's while others walk. I think what we are looking for is something that is functional and dependable not fast and flashy. Stephann

farglebargle -> RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care (1/30/2008 7:18:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Stephann I'm not saying they have it good; consider where most of their medical technology comes from? Where their best doctors are trained? Our health care is the best in the world. We expect everyone in this country to have access to it. The Italians, arguably, build the best automobiles in the world. Yet how many of those Italians own one of those machines? Until we can accept that not everyone in this country can have the health care equivalent of a Lamborghini or a Ferrari, we must continue to either accept some people will drive Lamborghini's while others walk. Stephan CLOSE. The Germans. VW, Audi, BMW, Mercedes Benz. And Roche.

SugarMyChurro -> RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care (1/30/2008 7:28:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sappatoti So, please tell me how this is Capitalism working at its best? No one in the anti-universal healthcare camp is going to answer you because they don't have an answer. Your avoidable situation created by a bloat-ocracy set of insurance middlemen we don't need is shameful in any country wishing to call itself civilized. No one should go begging for work because of a medical condition. That's just crazy! Why is employment even connected to healthcare in any way? Your situation is exactly why healthcare, and pharmaceuticals should be socialized. Because your case is a profit loser. It doesn't make any sense to treat you. The most fiscally responsible solution (according to Stephann?) would be to let you die or maybe find some humane way to "put you down." But no civilized society should stand for such treatment against any of its citizens. That citizen should be taken care of as part of the social contract we call civilization.

ocilla -> RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care (1/30/2008 7:33:01 PM)
I am right there with ya Sappa. I had weight loss surgery 5 years ago and ever since leaving the job I had during the time of the surgery I have been stamped uninsurable. At this point with the way insurance companies have gotten the upper hand, whose goals are solely about their bottom line and has nothing to do with humanity and they've the upper hand in terms of legislation and fees the only answer is a minimum level of universal healthcare being instituted. Big corporations are struggling due to health benefits costs (see GM as an example) but the small and some medium sized companies are being put out of business by it.

carlie310 -> RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care (1/30/2008 7:34:19 PM)
FR~ I spent 10 years working with and for doctors in the business office. Lots of practices. I never met one who worked a 4 day week. I met lots who worked 12 hour days, between office hours and rounding in the hospital, and many had 6 day weeks. I also met a number of doctors who were doing everything they could to take early retirement options, and get out of the business of practicing medicine because of the reduction in reimbursements that have been going on since the early '90s. There are more people in the business office trying to squeeze money out of hte insurance companies than there are in the exam rooms trying to take care of patients. The system is flawed. I'm not sure the government is the answer, though. All I know is that when I rejoin the workforce, I'm not going back into medical. I can do the same work in a legal firm and make twice the money.

ocilla -> RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care (1/30/2008 7:39:50 PM)
I would like to hear from folks who are set against any universal care if they were retired on an slightly above average level income and had the typical health concerns that folks of that age and socioeconomic bracket face. Ahh to be so inexpereinced, naive and opinionated.

Stephann -> RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care (1/30/2008 7:52:59 PM)
Ocilla, Try experienced? I haven't had health insurance in ten years. I've lived in a country for three, that had 'free' health care. I welcome you to question my opinions on their merit, only. carlie, That is, in large part, my perspective to. If we take a brief look at medicare and medicaid, we see a broken system that few health care professionals associate with, and serves those who need it most, least. The assumption that the government can put a gun to HMOs and health insurance companies to 'force' some sort of nicey nicey will simply mean investment in health insurance will dry up, and only the vultures will pick at the bones of what is left of our health care system. Thompson, Care to do a more realistic examination of the health care in Singapore verses a similar sized body? Say, Massachusetts? If you want to compare apples to oranges, and tell me why you think oranges taste better, that's spiffy. Find a country larger than 100 million people with better health care if you want to compare oranges to oranges. While you're at it, why not look into where most of their doctors are trained [;)] Stephan

thompsonx -> RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care (1/30/2008 7:55:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 Don't suppose you have a source for the claim of over 50% of income goes out in taxes, do you thompson? I am self employed, so pay not SS/fica, If you have a SS number then as a self employed person you are obligated for 14% If your self employment is a corporation you pay a corporation tax in Alaska. but an extra fee put on my Income tax, it is in the low 20s%. Low 20s% plus 14% puts you up to the high 30s% so far. Lets add in your property tax and of course many counties and cities in Alaska charge sales tax. No sales tax, no state tax, You are in one of the very few states that does not have state sales tax or state income tax not everyone lives in Alaska where everyone including you gets a welfare check. I do pay quite a bit in gas taxes This would be somewhere in the neighborhood of 18 to 20 cents a gallon...now you are in the low 40s% and tire stud taxes (I guess those are 'excise'), but I get to write off a lot of the gas tax. No you don't. I think the 50% number is a large exageration. If you weren't on welfare and lived where 90%of the people in the U.S, live you would be in the 50% range. As it is from your info you are over 40% before you add your property tax and your city and county sales tax depending on where you live... so where is the exaggeration? There is also the subtle tax in the form of the higher cost of living in Alaska because most everything in the grocery store has to be shipped in from the lower 48. I think our health system in America is nuts and needs major reform. But we do have to realise that doctors do not just magically appear, and we are going to have to create more of them before more health care can be dispensed. You do realize that it is the AMA that artificially limits the number of doctors by limiting the number of med schools in the U.S, I think the idea that most doctors work 4 days a week is nonsense. Nonsense or not it is fact. Do a little research. Imagine a system where you got a 105% tax refund for every allowable dollar spent on medical care (Boob job for breast cancer survivor allowable, boob job for Trixie to make her old man happy not allowed). This would stimulate medical delivery and remove the cost from the user, you could get a garunteed 5% return (not a huge payoput, but garunteed) on providing health care to other people. A supply side reform instead of a socialised model. But I would rather have the UK version than what we have now.

thompsonx -> RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care (1/30/2008 8:08:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Stephann Thompson, Care to do a more realistic examination of the health care in Singapore verses a similar sized body? Say, Massachusetts? If you want to compare apples to oranges, and tell me why you think oranges taste better, that's spiffy. Find a country larger than 100 million people with better health care if you want to compare oranges to oranges. While you're at it, why not look into where most of their doctors are trained [;)] Stephan One would think that the economies of scale would actually show better results in a larger country than in a small one. If you want to define the U.S. out of the problem by setting the parameters so that they exclude any comparison then do so. This is a discussion about possibilities. If you choose you could also limit the comparison to countries with a similar demographic,geography,economy or any number differences that would preclude their comparison. thompson

luckydog1 -> RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care (1/30/2008 8:34:03 PM)
Thompson, that was nice rambling nonsense reply. How about a source for your "fact"? Oh wait you don't have one of those... Your rambling presumptions are way off base. They just are. I do pay 14% in a self employment tax instead of Fica/ss (that is just a name difference). Why you think I do not get to write off my milage driven in my bussiness is way beyond me, and there is a direct ratio between miles driven and gas used. As an Alaskan Citizen I own a share of the resources her, and get a divindend check every year. If you want to scream "welfare" you can but in fact I am a shareholder in the Alaska Permanent Fund, and my dividend is based on the performance of that fund, not a garunteed entitlement. I do pay about 2 k a year in property taxes, but write off more than that on the mortage intrest on my Income Tax. After my deductions and write offs I pay in the low 20s. Now how about a factuall source for your claim.

Moloch -> RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care (1/30/2008 8:37:20 PM)
OMG! Insurance companies are there to make a profit?! Some one call the police we have capitalism in progress some one must stop it! Step in regulate, force? What is this Are you people even from US? Hey If I cant afford a car and I need one to get around can I force GM or FORD to sell me one for 50 bucks? Insurance companies are private enteties, read the fine print before handing over the money, its a hard concept to swallow for generation "entitled" but YOU are responsible for your OWN well being. Beore I started racing I dug around checked if my insurance company would cover me in case of an accident and they didnt , I didnt go to Uncle Sam and say "twist this corporations arm" I simply went to another insurance cmpany that WILL cover me when Im racing problem sloved. Its a shitty examply when at comes to people with chronic or terminall illness, because I dont know of any insurance company that would cover them. But the point Im trying to make you cant complain about insurance companies because they are private enteties leave then out of legislation we are not a socialist country yet...

Hippiekinkster -> RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care (1/30/2008 8:42:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 The whole thing is that Healthcare shouldn't be a "business." There shouldn't be any profit in it. Again, we need to outlaw "Lobbyists" in Washington, D.C. Big Pharma has them, the Insurance companies have them even the AMA has them! Dig it. (that dates me, eh? [8D]) Healthcare needs to be (IMO) considered to be a right, and not a privelege, with the best services going to the wealthy. The right babbles about "free markets" and "taking care of half of Mexico in ERs" but there is NOT a free market in healthcare, and Mexicans are NOT overrunning ERs. Here is a group of Physicians arguing for single-payer: http://www.pnhp.org/facts/singlepayer_faq.php#socialized Peace

thompsonx -> RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care (1/30/2008 9:02:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 Thompson, that was nice rambling nonsense reply. How about a source for your "fact"? Oh wait you don't have one of those... I was pretty explicit in my last post. You said you did not pay SS now you admit you pay 14%. Your rambling presumptions are way off base. They just are. I do pay 14% in a self employment tax instead of Fica/ss (that is just a name difference). It goes to the SS fund so it is SS by any name you choose to call it. Why you think I do not get to write off my milage driven in my bussiness is way beyond me, and there is a direct ratio between miles driven and gas used Writing off mileage as a business expense is just that. You still pay gasoline excise tax....these are two completely different things. Check with your CPA. As an Alaskan Citizen I own a share of the resources her, and get a dividend check every year. If you want to scream "welfare" you can but in fact I am a shareholder in the Alaska Permanent Fund, and my dividend is based on the performance of that fund, not a garunteed entitlement. You can put what ever kind of mascara on that pig you want to it is still a porker. You perform no work for a hand out from the government. You had no buy in costs and no liability if the fund goes "bk". It is a check from the government that you did nothing to earn. I am glad you are getting it but none the less it is welfare. I do pay about 2 k a year in property taxes, but write off more than that on the mortage intrest on my Income Tax. You,like everyone else, have a tax liability. Each person has different deductions. You subtract your deductions from your tax liability and pay the difference. This does not change your tax liability. It does change how much you pay. So you see your tax liability is in the 50% range. The fact that you have deductions serves to reduce the amount you pay. Not everyone has the same deductions. Most people in the U.S. pay sales tax and state income tax. The fact that you do does not in anyway change the tax position of the other 90% of Americans. I hope this has helped you to understand my point. After my deductions and write offs I pay in the low 20s. Now how about a factuall source for your claim.

Hippiekinkster -> RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care (1/30/2008 9:04:43 PM)
Gwynvyd: "Hospitals charge you that $6 for a tylenol because so many others simply do not pay thier bills or have insurance. Yeppers.. it gets passed on to you. See the vicious cycle here? " My ex-wife, who was a VP of Healthcare for PSFT and Oracle, among others, explained this to me (and I'm sure I'll get some of it wrong)(I don't recall paying complete attention, which was rare) sort of like this: That $USD6 has built into it the cost of carrying the inventory at the hospital; the cost of tracking that inventory; the cost of purchase records (paper trail)(see tylenol poisonings), the cost of records for the loading dock; the cost of people to unload trucks; the cost of someone to dispense the med; the cost of someone to administer the med; the cost of people to keep track of the records/software; and a lot of really indirect costs (delivery costs, costs for cleaning the storage areas, etc.). I think it's wrong, but that's how it is. I'm only one Commie Hippie pervert in a sea of Goose-stepping conformist greedhead neocon thieves/US Treasury looters/Constitution haters (did that make my politics clear? [:D]); I can't do a thing about it. But I think Obama is more in touch with what we need than Hillary (not meaning to hijack here). I want the same Healthcare that every Rethuglinazi Senator who has accepted a dime from the industry has.

carlie310 -> RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care (1/30/2008 9:06:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster The right babbles about "free markets" and "taking care of half of Mexico in ERs" but there is NOT a free market in healthcare, and Mexicans are NOT overrunning ERs. Huh. I must have missed those posts. Were they pulled for some reason? (Side note. . .I'm highly entertained that on one of those 'choose your candidate' website that I came out to be a social conservative. But wait. . .I said that I completely opposed a total ban on abortion, was for gun control and for same-sex unions. But I think the issue that dragged me to the right hand side of the bell curve is that I didn't agree with a government healthcare system.)

luckydog1 -> RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care (1/30/2008 9:09:47 PM)
Your point being that you made up the 50% number? I do grasp that. Feel free to source your statistic. I said I "pay" in the low 20s, you tried to argue that fact, by trying unsucessfully to switch terms...boring. Now let's return to the discussion about the amount health care.

thompsonx -> RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care (1/30/2008 9:21:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moloch OMG! Insurance companies are there to make a profit?! Some one call the police we have capitalism in progress some one must stop it! Step in regulate, force? What is this Are you people even from US? Hey If I cant afford a car and I need one to get around can I force GM or FORD to sell me one for 50 bucks? Insurance companies are private enteties, read the fine print before handing over the money, its a hard concept to swallow for generation "entitled" but YOU are responsible for your OWN well being. Beore I started racing I dug around checked if my insurance company would cover me in case of an accident and they didnt , I didnt go to Uncle Sam and say "twist this corporations arm" I simply went to another insurance cmpany that WILL cover me when Im racing problem sloved. Its a shitty examply when at comes to people with chronic or terminall illness, because I dont know of any insurance company that would cover them. But the point Im trying to make you cant complain about insurance companies because they are private enteties leave then out of legislation we are not a socialist country yet... Moloch: You most likely went to a publicly funded school. You drive on publicly funded roads. You get speeding tickets from publicly funded cops. You get your mail from publicly funded postal service. You receive fire protection from publicly funded fire departments. I could fill up fifty pages of publicly funded services that you receive but I think you get my point. Humans form themselves into societies not so that the rich can aggrandize themselves at the expense of the not rich but to make life richer and fuller and less hazardous for all the members of that society. The U.S. is the only advanced society in the world that does not have universal health care. You do not own anything or know anything that you have done all by yourself. Everything you know or have or expect to know or have is the result of those who have gone before you. This is called society. What are you doing to make those who come after you part of a better society? thompson

thompsonx -> RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care (1/30/2008 9:33:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 Your point being that you made up the 50% number? I do grasp that. Feel free to source your statistic. I said I "pay" in the low 20s, you tried to argue that fact, by trying unsucessfully to switch terms...boring. Now let's return to the discussion about the amount health care. luckydog: This was my original post that you found fault with. christine: If you were to add up state and federal income tax,Social Security tax,sales tax,excise tax you are over 50% and still no health care. thompson If you personally pay less than that good for you. I listed the taxes that most people in the U.S. pay. But you are special. You don't pay SS tax. You don't pay property tax. You don't pay road tax. have all these deductions that exempt you from your tax liability. Everyone wishes they were as special as you. If you want to play word games then continue to amuse yourself. thompson

Hippiekinkster -> RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care (1/30/2008 9:40:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: carlie310 quote: ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster The right babbles about "free markets" and "taking care of half of Mexico in ERs" but there is NOT a free market in healthcare, and Mexicans are NOT overrunning ERs. Huh. I must have missed those posts. Were they pulled for some reason? (Side note. . .I'm highly entertained that on one of those 'choose your candidate' website that I came out to be a social conservative. But wait. . .I said that I completely opposed a total ban on abortion, was for gun control and for same-sex unions. But I think the issue that dragged me to the right hand side of the bell curve is that I didn't agree with a government healthcare system.) The posts declaring such were not here. http://bondage.com/index.asp?bhcp=1 They are in the Politics Forum. I am for SINGLE-PAYER, which is NOT the same as Universal healthcare. I have friends in Vancouver. I was up there in December. I was shown a paycheck deduction for $CDN50/month for healthcare. In BC, people can go to whatever doctor they choose. Whatever hospital they choose. They pay quite a bit less for Pharms than Amis do. While there are reports of waiting lists trumpeted by the righties (Rush, Hannity, O'Lielly, etc.) those reports fail to mention that that occurs in the sticks/bush (the Bush in Canada is really big), and that the vast majority of those are not for critical surgery/treatments. I've had to seek healthcare in Germany, France, the UK, Mexico, and the US. For urgent care (which is what was required), it was slowest in Mexico, fastest in France. Mexico, that was a language barrier, maybe. I cannot say. The Germans were most efficient. Americans were most concerned about paperwork (who is going to pay? Gotta get that money). The UK, well, seemed to be just pretty damn good. I cannot bring any specifics to mind. Once the paperwork is done. Amis are pretty damn efficient. Hospital staff overworked, IMO. That's why the US has such a high error rate, I think. Lack of sleep. BTW, on one of those "see where you stand politically" sites, I am anti-authoritarian and Socialist.

Page: << < prev 1 2 [3] 4 5 next > >>

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

4.589844E-02