RE: THE PATH OF POWER AND THE EGO

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RE: THE PATH OF POWER AND THE EGO - 2/1/2008 9:01:40 AM

daddyncherry

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Joined: 10/9/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leatherist

Validation is simply letting yourself or others set parameters that you seek to work within. For instance,were I to allow a "submissive" to set the boundaries I had to work within on a relationship-I would be agreeing to settling for a loss of personal autonomy in doing so-I become submissive to her will.

But I may decide I have no "need" for that sort of relationship-and her will becomes moot to me. By letting go of "need" I gain more personal power.

Thank you, i totally get it now, even BC (before coffee), Thank you much

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RE: THE PATH OF POWER AND THE EGO - 2/1/2008 9:08:33 AM

chellekitty

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I know some others have mentioned what I am about to say but they have not said it in the terms I am going to use, so please forgive me if you feel slighted that is not my intention, rather my intention is to just present it in a different way.

The OP's essay presents a dimlema that has been long debated in BDSM circles, but only one side of it. Whether what it is that we do (i refuse to use that stupid shortening into confusing letters) is because of nurture or nature. The OP's essay would suggest that it is almost, if not all nurture. I would hold that from all my discussions and witnessing of discusssions, it has to be some combonation of nurture and nature, perhaps stronger towards one direction for some rather than others, but still some combonation there of.

I was discussing this type of thing with a woman from my local community I ran across at the book store: do submissive women attract predators, or are abused women attracted to BDSM because that is all they know...or perhaps a third option is available....perhaps people in this lifestyle talk more about abusive pasts because we play with things that can trigger ptsd reactions...I don't know...it's probably different for each and every person...but i also know that there are submissive women out there who have never been abused...so it can't be the abuse thing, universally...

The same goes for anything mentioned as a universal, there is always an exception, and most likely there are a lot. Oh yeah, back to the original topic people do have inherent and learned traits. Nature and nurture. You cannot eliminate either one. Sorry.

chelle

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RE: THE PATH OF POWER AND THE EGO - 2/1/2008 9:33:12 AM

Jeffff

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While an unexamined life may not be worth living, too much contemplation, is equally unappealing

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RE: THE PATH OF POWER AND THE EGO - 2/1/2008 9:41:25 AM

MadRabbit

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Joined: 8/9/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Rabbit,

You must be having an off day, this isn't new age, this is infantile pablum.

Okay...let me respond to a couple of different points from various posters to kind of show what I am getting at. I think there is two different parts to this essay. One is an essay where he is presenting a theory on the ego and the other is the New Age stuff regarding the psycho-stuff of slave training.

quote:

Sentence after sentence is nonsense, contradictory, or red. We need to understand we are confused and allow our ego to blow smoke up our ass so we can see how important I am.

On a side note...Michael, I love ya, but you do have a habit of responding to newcomers who even slightly present themselves as some kind of authority in a harsh way. A lot of the times it's well founded, but I don't really think so in this case. There is quite a lot of "my opinions" and "my theories" in the essay.

quote:

I mean come ON
quote:

Everything that we know has shaped us to what we are today. In essence our ego was already there before we began so that we would know how to function in the world in which we live. So we would know how to act and relate to others around us to create a harmonious society and community. It is the drive for positive attention and for reward, and the fear of negative attention and punishment that keeps us on the straight and narrow path that was laid before us by our environment.

You can't read half a sentence without screaming this is WRONG on so many levels.

Clearly, you disagree. Thats cool.

quote:

People haven't believed Plato about being born with knowledge for a long time!

I am not sure what this is a reference to. He seems to be taking a nurture argument as opposed to a nature one. He says "In essence" which tends to communicate something different. From what I see, he is saying that in a sense, our egos are already predeveloped because of the degree of "common knowledge" that all of us receive. There is some basics that everyone in a society does learn, meaning that in a sense, parts of our ego are already predetermined.

quote:

How many "harmonious communities" do YOU know of?

None, but however, thats the actuality and not the theory. A large part of what society trys to imprint upon us is for the objective of making us peaceful and law abiding citizens that co exist with everyone around us.

quote:

Punishment is actually the least effective method for developing behavior, the genetic component of behavior is missing, and besides, much of what we internalize about social interaction is from observation, not reward and punishment.

Which is one school of thought. Skinner and behavioral scientists would disagree. Even if observation is one medium for learning, punishment and reward still provide the basic building blocks. We observe someone getting cut by a knife and learn to be careful with knifes. Someone got cut with a knife and wrote a book telling other people about the dangers of knives. Observation, written word, and verbal communication provide the mediums to transfer the lesson presented by reward and punishment.

quote:

My glass is overflowing but the only thing in the op's glass are water stains, it sure as heck isn't half full.

Even if the first half of his essay on the theory of ego is arguable, I don't agree with this opinion presented here by Des...

quote:

As far as the rest, obviously if your initial premise is wrong, then your conclusions are also.

Part A and Part B aren't sequential and therefore his first half is about as relevant to the second half as the price of a hooker in Singapore.

I found a lot of interesting and insightful thoughts regarding the psychology of a M/S relationship in the second half, even if I find it to be overcomplicating something rather simple.

But hey...at least no mentions of physically torturing a slave to they achieve spiritual enlightment or the process of "slave training" involving breaking down the ego Jason-Bourne style. It's realistic and interesting.

You mentioned something else as well earlier...

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

quote:

The main objective is to either temporary or permanently change behaviors or how the individuals view themselves from their own perspective.

Since each person is an individual so to must be their training be individualized to help them become who they truly are.

You should love the person as a whole individual with all the baggage that they have no matter what.

So "we" know who "they" truly are but they are an individual and we should love them and their baggage but change them?

On the surface, this might seem like an inconsistency, but I found it to actually relate to some of my experiences. If you want to change someone in a positive way, then you, to a degree, have to accept them for who they are, because then your changing them to improve as opposed to negatively changing them because they "aren't good enough".

quote:

Oh, and what exactly is it that you keep recommending people study? It sure as hell isn't anything written by psychologists or therapists, even kink friendly ones, because that would educate someone enough to see the vast holes and inconsistencies in what you wrote.

I found a lot of what he wrote to be very similar to the "identity" stuff written in Slavecraft or a lot of the psycho-talk on Enslavement. It's just saying it a different way.

I'm providing these rebuttals, not because I think your completely wrong in what you are saying, but I think the essay was thought out, intiellgent, and worth discussing. It made me think and anything that makes me think I really enjoy. It's certainly better than the usual stuff we get around here from MasterMikey about how all us dominants have been pussy whipped and just don't know it yet or the powerful sentiment of calling someone a "bitch".

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Post #: 24

RE: THE PATH OF POWER AND THE EGO - 2/1/2008 1:41:15 PM

SimplyMichael

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Joined: 1/7/2007
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quote:

On a side note...Michael, I love ya, but you do have a habit of responding to newcomers who even slightly present themselves as some kind of authority in a harsh way.

I am harsh with everyone here, including myself. I also frequently praise the advice of others. I think I speak of and expose my errors, weaknesses, and failings enough to believe that when I choose to do either, it comes from a place of integrity rather than trying to protect some percieved status.

quote:

quote:

quote:

Punishment is actually the least effective method for developing behavior, the genetic component of behavior is missing, and besides, much of what we internalize about social interaction is from observation, not reward and punishment.

Which is one school of thought. Skinner and behavioral scientists would disagree.

The science has advanced a great deal since Skinner and while operant conditioning is still important, there are other learning methods that don't rely on reward or punishment such as latent and insight learning that are being explored.

Bottom line though, my issue with trite such as this is that you could get the same stuff from the back of your average self help book. This isn't the OPs insight that he has brought to us based on his experience, this is "I am old guard trained" dressed up in new age fluff.