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RE: Passive-aggressive submission - 9/5/2005 10:29:09 AM   
ElektraUkM


Posts: 309
Joined: 2/19/2005
Status: offline 		Having read quickly through the link LadyAngelika provided... I don't think I'm a passive person either. I don't think I'm any more passive than anyone with reasonable manners in the general run of social interaction. Actually I'm more than likely to step into the breach if there's any organisation or planning or whatever to be done... (you know, those moments when everyone is standing around wondering what to do next..?).

I think it's healthy for a sub to be assertive, if that means putting across what you'd like, or what your point of view, is or what you (think you) need. How can anyone claim to be submitting if they don't have ideas of their own, yet defer to someone else in whom they've put their faith/trust? That's the whole point for me.

~ Elektra


(in reply to Raphael)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Passive-aggressive submission - 9/5/2005 11:34:45 AM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

I think it's healthy for a sub to be assertive


I'm going to expand on that and say I think it is healthy for everyone to be assertive.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to ElektraUkM)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Passive-aggressive submission - 9/5/2005 11:40:15 AM   
preciousflower


Posts: 8
Joined: 8/21/2005
Status: offline
quote:

quote:

Yes, I would say that the person in question is more assertive than anything but as for being passive that is not in the cards. (I am speaking about myself here). I do noYes, I would say that the person in question is more assertive than anything but as for being passive that is not in the cards. (I am speaking about myself here). I do not see myself as being passive at all and this has been noted before by other DOM/MMEs but yet I still consider myself submissve. I may not be explaining this to best of my abilities at this time but I do hope that this may give some clarity to my question as it relates to this thread. Thank you for the link.


i think i understand what you are saying, ns. i am very strong willed and opinionated, yet since being with my Master i am opening up much more to my submissiveness. the main issues i have had in the past have been dealing with what i call "wannabe Masters". that is where my aggression stems from.

i've been called a "brat" by many, been told i'm not a "true submissive" because i'd question certain things of who i was talking to at the time, i've been told i was too "picky" and would never have anyOne. yet, here i am, very happily owned by a wonderful Master.

precious

(in reply to Raphael)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Passive-aggressive submission - 9/5/2005 12:40:38 PM   
erebus


Posts: 169
Joined: 1/15/2004
Status: offline 		There is nothing that drives me nuts faster than a brat or topping from the bottom. One does want to have mutual pleasure and have a meeting of the minds, hearts, souls and various body parts, but pushy subs are indeed a pain in the ass.

However, if one gets involved with a brat who is honest from the get-go, one can then make a decision if one wants to continue. I know that from experience (a pleasant experience).


(in reply to Raphael)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Passive-aggressive submission - 9/5/2005 2:57:44 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

However, if one gets involved with a brat who is honest from the get-go, one can then make a decision if one wants to continue. I know that from experience (a pleasant experience).


And this was a positive experience because the person in question was assertive from the beginning about her desire to be bratty and you could make a decision based on facts rather then a false image.

When people are passive aggressive, they pretend to be what you want in order to get closer to you (passive) and then when they can no longer keep up the act, they lash out (aggressive).

Hence bratty or topping from the bottom does not equate to passive-aggressiveness if the person is forthcoming about their desire to do so.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to erebus)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Passive-aggressive submission - 9/5/2005 4:02:39 PM   
pandoravampire


Posts: 374
Joined: 12/6/2004
Status: offline 		passive aggression (in my opinion) is a manipulative behaviour seen in people. Not subs or doms, people. It may be conscious or unconscious. Either way, it is a way of communicating to another - a message. Sure its completely screwed communication, but manipulative communication none the less.

We are all capable of it at times. And we all have indulged. All of us. Some of us have insight, some of us dont.

If you know someone well, or you have taught yourself or been taught well enough to communicate, then the need for PA behaviour lessens.
Some PA behaviour ive seen here and on other boards is from people who make a bit of 4x4 timber look like a pentium 4. It grates on me, annoys the crap out of me and infuriates me to read such threads, as people are sucked into the transference these people can kick out at a rate of knots. So i avoid such threads now. You know the ones where it goes.... Met my Dom, we are in love, but he's sleeping around without a condom, is this ok?

I work a lot with people diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder, where PA is paramount. It is their most reliable sabotage tool, one they can easily tap into. Not allowing my buttons to be pushed is a challenge at times. Often these people have many years of expertise in this field compared to my paultry 22 at not responding to it.
Like saracasm is supposed to be, PA in my opinion is the truly lowest form of whit.
Its counterproductive to mutual goals.

I indulge in PA when im truly frustrated. Its a bad behaviour im capable of as are we all. But it only comes out, when communication is not flowing. It is my responsibility as a human bean, to spot it, control it, prevent it. Not my Dom's. Restart communication of a flowing level, and work through the issue.

I detest being manipulated. I can smell it a mile away and spot it in half of that.

Sometimes, you will read a post, that is designed to mislead, and cajole others into a predetermined response. Where ignorance is claimed. To play with bdsm from the level of igonorance claimed, or described, is unconsenting. Consent should always be given from a informed stance, Posters, such as i mention here, are either lacking the capacity to give informed consent, through stupidity or practicing PA behaviour or manipultation. Either way, not attractive as people to me. But may float others boats nicely.

Topping from the bottom is another sited PA behaviour. Again, a form of communicating what i want. However, this is not the agreed dynamic, and therefor unwelcome. If my needs are not met, i am responsible for communicating what/why/how in a respectful manner. A wise dominant will listen and respond to our mutual benefit. If i want something, i ask outright, in a respectful manner as His sub. Well, thats the theory. Sometimes i cock up, and i spot whats going on, then i can stop what im doing and go about it in a more productive manner.

My tolerance for manilpulation is zero, i respect that His is too.
pandoravampire

(in reply to darkinshadows)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Passive-aggressive submission - 9/5/2005 4:41:35 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline 		Nevermind, misread something.

- LA

< Message edited by LadyAngelika -- 9/5/2005 4:48:04 PM >

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Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

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Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Passive-aggressive submission - 9/5/2005 5:41:27 PM   
Elegant


Posts: 1024
Joined: 3/15/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pandoravampire

I work a lot with people diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder, where PA is paramount. It is their most reliable sabotage tool, one they can easily tap into.


Passive/agressive behavior is not one of the DSM-IV criteria or other commonly recognized traits of Borderline Personality Disorder. In fact, Passive Aggressive Personality Disorder is another malady. People with Passive Aggressive Personality Disorder are characterized by covert obstructionism, procrastination, stubbornness, and inefficiency. PAPD must be differentiated from histrionic and borderline PD. Patients with PAPD, however, are less flamboyant, dramatic, affective and openly aggressive than those with histrionic and borderline PD.

But…..Daniel F. Becker, M.D., associate clinical professor of psychiatry at the University of California at San Francisco, said researchers found evidence that borderline personality disorder frequently overlaps with other personality disorders, such as schizotypal and passive-aggressive personality disorders.


More info on Borderline Personality Disorder: http://www.bpdcentral.com/

(in reply to pandoravampire)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Passive-aggressive submission - 9/5/2005 7:32:59 PM   
LadyJC


Posts: 111
Joined: 5/18/2005
Status: offline 		Like everyone else says PA disorder is in all walks of life. I was recently with a submissive who I gave his collar back for many reasons. There was one main one but that's not part of the topic.
He was very passive-aggressive he would try and tell me how to do things. Or he would bitch about having to do the dishes every day. We agreed that's what he did I got so sick of it. One day he told me I didn't play hard enough, every time I wanted to play I would have to fight with him to tie him down...he is actually stronger than me and more fit than I am...I couldn't hold him down long enough to tie him down finally I stopped trying. He got upset at this and told me strugglings half the fun. I said well too bad I can't be bothered to stuggle. If they want to play with me then fine you won't struggle if you don't you'll struggle. That's what I took it as.
A few days after he told me I didn't play hard enough...I hurt his nipples so bad they still hurt three days later...altho constantly pulling on them through out those 3 days probably didn't help either.
He also bitched about everything that went on in his life. Mind you he had a bad life but after the six millionth time of listening to it, the sympathy and even the empathy starts to wilt away.
I'm looking for someone who speaks their mind, asks questions, and doesn't struggle when I decide it's play or bitch if I want sex, who doesn't top from the bottom, and who doesn't whine and bitch about how horrible life was to him.
Looking at the list of symptoms and his attitude it seems he may have had Passive-Agressive disorder and was not even diagnosed for it. He did do the What about me? What about my feelings? You don't care about me crap. Thank you for posting this it was very informative and it might help me heal a little bit more in the next couple of days.
He hurt me a lot unfortunately (yes even us Doms get hurt sometimes)
I was thinking of leaving the lifestyle because of that experience, but then I thought it was one bad experience. I'm sure lots of people had more than there share of bad experiences with subs and doms alike, and I'm trying to look at it as a life lesson vs. the end of the world is coming.
Once again ty Dark Angel for bringing up the topic.
Lady JC

(in reply to Elegant)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Passive-aggressive submission - 9/5/2005 11:41:18 PM   
NakedOnMyChain


Posts: 2431
Joined: 11/29/2004
From: Indiana
Status: offline 		The majority of the subs that I've met, here and other places, have tended to be well-balanced. Not to say that I haven't met the occasional person that fits one stereotype or the other, but they have mostly been decent, normal people. Ok...maybe not normal...you know what I mean, though.

_____________________________

"Oh, it's torture, but I'm almost there."
~The Cure

"I ask for so little. Just fear me, love me, do as I say, and I will be your slave."
~The Labyrinth

(in reply to darkinshadows)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Passive-aggressive submission - 9/6/2005 12:23:04 AM   
nslut4whtmaster


Posts: 40
Joined: 9/9/2004
Status: offline
quote:



So what is it that makes you submissive then? A desire to be taken down?

I had never thought that may be some of the appeal. One of my female friends who is submissive is the same way. However, when we have been used together in a scene by a DOM, I do tend to be more agreeable and obediant as to make her look less obediant in the DOMs eyes. I like more of the verbal take down than the physical but I have never refused it when I had it coming.

ns

(in reply to Raphael)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Passive-aggressive submission - 9/6/2005 7:51:13 PM   
Misstoyou


Posts: 1149
Joined: 9/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Elegant



Passive/agressive behavior is not one of the DSM-IV criteria or other commonly recognized traits of Borderline Personality Disorder. In fact, Passive Aggressive Personality Disorder is another malady. People with Passive Aggressive Personality Disorder are characterized by covert obstructionism, procrastination, stubbornness, and inefficiency.



Exactly! My former step-mother was classic. Superfically agreeing to accomodate everything my father asked for (ie. dinner on the table precisely at six - he's always been a closet Dom lol), but something always got in the way, and throughout their marriage, she made sure that dinner never EVER was served at six. But, of course, there was always a very good reason...

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~ Miss Marie

a.k.a. "mean Lady"


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RE: Passive-aggressive submission - 9/6/2005 8:56:07 PM   
Ojedieu


Posts: 142
Joined: 1/17/2005
From: Michigan
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyJC

He also bitched about everything that went on in his life. Mind you he had a bad life but after the six millionth time of listening to it, the sympathy and even the empathy starts to wilt away.



Oof. I can empathize with you on this one. I knew someone who had the 'victim' mentality. She'd been thru something traumatic a long, long, long time before. She was fully able but never willing to let the past be the past. She'd gotten so used to the sympathy she got for being the victim that she'd start out with her story with EVERYONE she met then she'd purposefully put herself in bad situations so that she could complain and bitch about those. That got old fast. Especially when she used it to try to manipulate people.

Everyone's been through some shit in their lives. Some much worse than others. It all depends on how they decide to let it affect them. I've seen people whose worst catastrophe was akin to getting a splinter, who somehow break down and do the "Oh poor me" thing to death and can't ever seem to move forward with their lives. I've also met those who have horrendous histories and I wouldn't fault them for being completely bonkers, yet they seem to have bounced back and lead more psychologically peaceful lives than most other people I've met.

Learning to let the past be the past and to look forward with optimism is a great skill to have and to find in other people. Never let one of those through your fingers if you find one! :)

Edited for typo.

< Message edited by Ojedieu -- 9/6/2005 8:58:58 PM >

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Ojedieu

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RE: Passive-aggressive submission - 9/7/2005 7:46:46 AM   
lonewolf05


Posts: 830
Joined: 6/21/2005
Status: offline
quote:


The current criteria for the passive-aggressive personality disorder as proposed by the Personality Disorders Work Group for the DSM-IV includes (source):


passive resistance to fulfilling social and occupational tasks through procrastination and inefficiency;

complaints of being misunderstood, unappreciated, and victimized by others;

sullenness, irritability, and argumentativeness in response to expectations;

angry and pessimistic attitudes toward a variety of events;

unreasonable criticism and scorn toward those in authority;

envy and resentment toward those who are more fortunate;

self-definition as luckless in life and an inclination to whine and grumble about being jinxed;

alternating behavior between hostile assertion of personal autonomy and dependent contrition (Millon & Radovanov, Livesley, ed., 1995, p. 321).

=========================

WHOA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
hold up there!
i do tout that i AM misunderstood. far too many issues of 2 faced people i have to deal with. tell ya how nice they are to your face and stab ya in the back...i dont trust anyone any farther than i can see ya.
sullen, irritable, argues, et cetra..........yeah ya damned straight. i hate this whole 2 faced issue of the world touting it is for the better good of mankind and find ways to screw ya when they can........
unreasonable of being criticized? m a y b e ..but when someone can show me they walk on water..get off MY back.
envy n resentment? naw. no envy. i am not materialistic.
resentment? ya damned right. i resent a lot of things in life. why is that an issue? aint i entitled to MY feelings in a free country that i did MY duty for overseas?
luckless in life?> how lucky ya think $7.50 an hour is? whine n grumble? sure i bitch alot. what's it to ya?
i hate upper class people tellin me how i should or should not live...they fail to notice the mistletoe on my shirt tail...why is that?

angry? ya betcha! i was raised in a violent world. i have had an anger issue ALL my life... pessimist? naw. REALIST!
and i AM unappreciated. how many friggen times do i try to help someone in these forums and add to topics JUST to have some idiot s.o.b. stomp all over me? i get a belly full of it...ok?


wolf


_____________________________

"there is no gravity, life sucks!"


(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Passive-aggressive submission - 9/7/2005 12:51:34 PM   
BlkTallFullfig


Posts: 5585
Joined: 6/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

do tout that i AM misunderstood. far too many issues of 2 faced people i have to deal with. tell ya how nice they are to your face and stab ya in the back...i dont trust anyone any farther than i can see ya.
sullen, irritable, argues, et cetra..........yeah ya damned straight. i hate this whole 2 faced issue of the world touting it is for the better good of mankind and find ways to screw ya when they can........
unreasonable of being criticized? m a y b e ..but when someone can show me they walk on water..get off MY back.
envy n resentment? naw. no envy. i am not materialistic.
resentment? ya damned right. i resent a lot of things in life. why is that an issue? aint i entitled to MY feelings in a free country that i did MY duty for overseas?
luckless in life?> how lucky ya think $7.50 an hour is? whine n grumble? sure i bitch alot. what's it to ya?
i hate upper class people tellin me how i should or should not live...they fail to notice the mistletoe on my shirt tail...why is that?

angry? ya betcha! i was raised in a violent world. i have had an anger issue ALL my life... pessimist? naw. REALIST!
and i AM unappreciated. how many friggen times do i try to help someone in these forums and add to topics JUST to have some idiot s.o.b. stomp all over me? i get a belly full of it...ok?
Wolfie,
I'm pretty sure someone's mentioned before you should get help sorting through all the issues. All this negativity and drama will kill you sooner than later by way of heart attack or stroke. M

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a.k.a. SexyBossyBBW
""Touching was, and still is, and will always be, the true revolution" Nikki Giovanni

(in reply to lonewolf05)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Passive-aggressive submission - 9/7/2005 2:09:40 PM   
lonewolf05


Posts: 830
Joined: 6/21/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Wolfie,
I'm pretty sure someone's mentioned before you should get help sorting through all the issues. All this negativity and drama will kill you sooner than later by way of heart attack or stroke. M

-----------------------------------


looks at Her, focusing on Her eyes,.

licks his chops, looks around,...

..thinking maybe he stepped out on a tangent and got carried away with emotions, in a heated topic,...
aww jeeez,....
slinks away tail down...........


< Message edited by lonewolf05 -- 9/7/2005 2:10:59 PM >

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"there is no gravity, life sucks!"


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RE: Passive-aggressive submission - 9/9/2005 7:54:40 AM   
flaire


Posts: 60
Joined: 9/6/2005
Status: offline 		Is it possible to be an agressive-passive? In other words, you jump and stomp and act in an appalling way until you find someone worse than you (who, of course, has a lovely bottom) and then submit to them.

f x

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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Passive-aggressive submission - 9/9/2005 9:41:47 AM   
Veav


Posts: 150
Joined: 8/1/2005
Status: offline 		Here's another twist... I do customer service, and my modus operandi is to pamper the customer, put up with their moods no matter how unreasonable. But I don't cater to their whims, I stick to my client's policies and if I don't think you won't deserve something - you won't get it.

So it tends to produce conversations like "No, sir, I understand... I know where you're coming from, it's a very frustrating situation for you... yes, I agree you're paying for a service and you do deserve to have it, we're going to do everything in our power to provide it for you and fix up any troubles you might have, we want you to be a happy customer... I'm sorry, we can't provide a monetary credit for valid charges, but what I can do is this..." Submit, submit, denied!

Am I topping from the bottom here, folks? }:D

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(in reply to flaire)
Profile   Post #: 38
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