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RE: Bad for Personal Development? - 1/31/2008 11:47:06 AM   
LadyHathor


Posts: 775
Joined: 1/2/2008
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quote:

Submitting to another or becoming responsible for another is ultimately stunting and detrimental to personal developement.

 
The same can be said in a vanilla relatinship---there are no guarantees just because one wears a Ds hat versus Republican or democrat---if there is no communication, no commitment, no desire to work together, of course its going to be stunting and detrimental.
 
quote:

I can understand how being involved in a BDSM lifestyle can be detrimental to personal development of those under the age of 30

 
This can be detrimental to anyone of any age if the people involved have a screw loose---no guarantees there.
 
quote:

I also think that the majority of people involved in SSC BDSM are smart, intelligent, openminded people. Ultimately I think these people have a better chance of surviving the fallout of a relationship breakup than those of the vanilla orientation.

 
Well thanks for the vote of confidence but we have just as many kooks, freaks, trollers and users as life does--so don't think its a be all do all end all to saving a relationship--and as I said labels don't and won't guarantee the success, failure or ability to survive a relationship---any more than being Christian or Democrat does. So IMHO your thinking here is flawed--
 
quote:

Although one has to take into account that there's a level of commitment beyond a simple vanilla relationship when we're talking about a BDSM lifestyle relationship.

 
There is often no more commitment because of WIITWD than of two people were artists---remember BDSM is an interest, it isn't a religion, it isn't a guarantee to a better relationship--it has to start with two people, and it has to start with the basics of a relationship
 
 
quote:

I know a BDSM relationship can work, can be productive, constructive, educational, enlightening, fulfilling, and ultimately if their is a breakup then the ones involved can come out the other end with more useful lessons than they went into it with. However, that doesn't mean that it's the most common outcome from BDSM relationships.

 
This can be said of any relationship with no guarantee of the outcome--I think you need to realize that BDSM is an interest between two people, and that enhances a relationship--but it is not a framework that supercedes dealing with life issues and the basics of good relationship development.
 
IMHO.
 

_____________________________

Lady Hathor, I am the Mistress Hathor of Orleans, I am what I am, often to the dismay and discomfort of others.

(in reply to Ryugen)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Bad for Personal Development? - 1/31/2008 11:47:23 AM   
LadyLolly


Posts: 140
Joined: 5/21/2005
Status: offline 		Actually, you should have it easier being a male het dom.  Societal norms are bias with the male (in reality even with 50/50 lip service) ultimately expected to be the dominant partner.

Debates are a good thing.  Healthy.  Help you to better examine and verbalize what is internal for you. Not a thing in the world wrong with loving and respecting a parent - even when you disagree. Debate and discussion are so much more productive than fighting or storming off. 

When my Alpha/spouse outted me to my folks, the main thing they looked at is as long as what transpires is between consenting adults, while they might not understand it, was OK.  In a D/s "relationship" rather than attempting to do 50/50 (and both sides working against each other to getr thier "fair" half) the parties have agreed to work in tandem with one party always having the responsibility for the final say-so.  Both desire this to be so. There is (ideally)  no infighting, subderfuge, passive-agressive gamesmanship to "win" undermining the best efforts of each.  Harmony rather than discord.  

When you were growing up, did your mother ever end a discussion/debate/argument with the parental trump card of  "because I said so"?  Did she, in an authority position as your parent, stiffle and criple your growth and development?  Or did she guide, nuture and teach you from the benefit of her own experience?
Did she demand you clean up your room, do your chores, not drink and drive her car - she "made" you do things to build character, develope skills and good habits (or tried to anyway). Hopefully not just because she could "boss" you, but because she loved you and wanted to help you become all that you could be by fulfilling her parental role as example,  guide and protector.

What does a s get from D/s?  Hopefully all of the above.  Some one that cares for them, wants the best for them, some one that gives them a good swift kick in the butt when they need it and holds them accountable.  Hopefully they get some one that inspires them, denies them self defeating excuses, protects and defends them from others and thier own mistakes.  
    
Perhaps appearing somewhat parental in execution,  ideally not to stunt but to nuture.  A role not much different than an employer, dean or any authority figure interested in mentoring and assisting another in personal fulfilment and growth, with the consentually given power and authority to help it along.  

(smile) good luck with the debates with your mom - she can still try to pull that because I said so trump card <G>.

(in reply to Ryugen)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Bad for Personal Development? - 1/31/2008 11:47:41 AM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ryugen

Seems like progress is progress no matter what direction it's in ey? As always, everyone has their own view points and opinions. Thank you all for sharing them. I guess everyone really does take from a definition or term only what they want and give it meaning in their own right. Heh, makes me wonder at the use of a dictionary when to so many people the same word can mean something completely different.


Thats your response?...... this is why I derail... many people have given you solid OPINIONS here. what are you looking for affirmation? the ONE TRUE answer?
you are living....but learning?..what?

Jeff


was that cranky?....lol

< Message edited by Jeffff -- 1/31/2008 11:52:02 AM >

(in reply to Ryugen)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Bad for Personal Development? - 1/31/2008 11:51:45 AM   
MasterWilliam55


Posts: 361
Joined: 1/27/2006
Status: offline 		The abdication of responsibility is not neccessarly an act of submission.

(in reply to OmegaG)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Bad for Personal Development? - 1/31/2008 12:43:43 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		I disagree with your assumption that those involved with wiitwd are on the whole smart, intelligent, openminded. We're just people with the same range of smarts, intelligence and openmindedness that you would find in the members of the local golf club. Or bowling league for that matter. The fact that we have one common interest doesn't say anything else about us.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


(in reply to OmegaG)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Bad for Personal Development? - 1/31/2008 1:42:23 PM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline 		I don't see abdication of responsibility in an s-type as a given.  Are there submissives who abdicate responsibility for their actions by stating that "I only do whatever Master/Mistress says so they...as the instigator...are responsible for my actions"?  Yes there are and that is all very well and good in your world and as long as your Master/Mistress never commands you to do anything illegal.  Because if they do...and you try using that defense in court...I have a very strong feeling that it is not going to work.  A submissive/slave makes a choice each and every time they submit.  How aware they are of making that choice is a topic best left to neurologists that can explain how many times obeying someone on a specific order versus a different order causes differing speeds of nerve transmission and synaptic pick-up BUT there is still a decision made...to obey or not.  Choosing to do either makes the chooser responsible for the consequences.  In my world, I prefer a submissive to get that idea...that she is responsible for her actions.  If you want to make things a bit more complicated it could then be argued that, if a Master/Mistress is solely responsible for the submissive's actions, then that means the Master/Mistress should never correct/discipline/punish the submissive as any slip-ups he/she makes are the Master/Mistress's responsiblity. 

I don't know that you need to defend your choices.  My brother knows I am dominant and doesn't quite get it...thinks I am a control freak, yet he is one of the most domineering people I know.  People sometimes fail to recognize the difference between the two but the most basic one...which I think applies in your case and in the case of people like my brother...is that domineering types tend to think their way is the ONLY way and that anyone who thinks different is "wrong-headed".  I've learned a long time ago...and very early on...not to try and beat my brother over the head with what I am.  If he asks a question, I try to answer it cooly and calmly.  If he continues in the same manner, I will also but the minute he wants to take "that tack", then I let him know that as far as I am concerned, the conversation is over. 


(in reply to Ryugen)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Bad for Personal Development? - 1/31/2008 1:45:21 PM   
LadyHathor


Posts: 775
Joined: 1/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ryugen

Seems like progress is progress no matter what direction it's in ey? As always, everyone has their own view points and opinions. Thank you all for sharing them. I guess everyone really does take from a definition or term only what they want and give it meaning in their own right. Heh, makes me wonder at the use of a dictionary when to so many people the same word can mean something completely different.


No, I disagree, I think that in some areas where emotions come into play--we see the stength and the fragility of the human spirit--there is no question that we all agree what murder is, or what a door is, or a book, or street---but terms like: religion, devotion, spirituality, submission, dominance, love--are elusive as they are expressed round the world differently, so to smack us for not being cookie cutter is not quite mature.
 
Now given that, you came here for opinions and that is what you got, if you came here to be accepted for your decisions, well pffttt we are all of that ilk.
 
Now as for your mother, I venture to say that she is from an era ( as was Mine) that women were suppressed and were not encouraged to expand and grow- ( though My Mom spread her own wings much to the chagrin of My grand mother)--it doesnt matter what changes happen in a persons life they are stamped with certain frames of reference and I would be willing to bet that she lived a good part of her life "the other way", not casting stones, but from a different frame of reference and belief structure, so the only was she will change her feelings I am sure is to see you in action as they say.  And the things she mentions are very elusive terms as well "personal growth"---what does that mean?  It has many meanings to many people---
 
So when you come here, don't bash people because they are passing opinions you asked for based on a set of words that mean diferent things to different people.  Did you not get the rousing back slapping you hoped for?
 
I actually think you got some damn good advice from some people I respect.

 
 

< Message edited by LadyHathor -- 1/31/2008 1:46:40 PM >

_____________________________

Lady Hathor, I am the Mistress Hathor of Orleans, I am what I am, often to the dismay and discomfort of others.

(in reply to Ryugen)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Bad for Personal Development? - 1/31/2008 1:46:41 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline
quote:

Submitting to another or becoming responsible for another is ultimately stunting and detrimental to personal developement.


Every member of the armed forces...
Every parent....
Every working adult.....

...Is a walking refutation to your mother's position.  She herself is all the proof that is required to invalidate her position.


_____________________________



(in reply to Ryugen)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Bad for Personal Development? - 1/31/2008 2:16:49 PM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

Submitting to another or becoming responsible for another is ultimately stunting and detrimental to personal developement.


Every member of the armed forces...
Every parent....
Every working adult.....

...Is a walking refutation to your mother's position.  She herself is all the proof that is required to invalidate her position.


Nicely...and concisely...said, CL.  I'd like to think that my time in the service helped to bring me here.  That my time and training as a healthcare provider brought me here.  I don't feel that either of those two areas of my life have stunted me.

(in reply to celticlord2112)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Bad for Personal Development? - 1/31/2008 2:27:17 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

Submitting to another or becoming responsible for another is ultimately stunting and detrimental to personal developement.


Every member of the armed forces...
Every parent....
Every working adult.....

...Is a walking refutation to your mother's position.  She herself is all the proof that is required to invalidate her position.


Nicely...and concisely...said, CL.  I'd like to think that my time in the service helped to bring me here.  That my time and training as a healthcare provider brought me here.  I don't feel that either of those two areas of my life have stunted me.


Thank you.

I served as a US Marine, have run my own business (several of them, with employees), and have shephered two boys into outstanding young men.  I am certain I have grown through each of these experiences (and many more besides).


_____________________________



(in reply to CreativeDominant)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Bad for Personal Development? - 1/31/2008 2:27:24 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline 		Notice that the OP tap dances around the questions by either claiming they are too harsh, or copping out with the 'it's all gooooooood maaaan' evasion.

If his premise that subordination to another has a deleterious effect on personal development is valid, then his criticism would be equally valid for any apprenticeship or journeyman program, as well other examples of learning from the bottom up...military style organizations with ranks, educators, and so forth.


Clearly this supposedly 'irrefutable theory' is a product of a mind which has never experienced the maturation process.

(in reply to CreativeDominant)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Bad for Personal Development? - 1/31/2008 2:34:57 PM   
adoracat


Posts: 1779
Joined: 2/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1

quote:

ORIGINAL: daddyncherry

That really all depends on the parents and the relationship....i can be completely candid with my Mom on almost ANYTHING...she and i have talked that way forever, and it is part of our friendship,which we now are able to have since we are both adults and love, appreciate and admire one another. We have very few boundaries...i may not paint her a "pornographic" picture of things we do, but she knows about it, she knows that we do anal, that we go to swinger clubs and dungeons.....she knows that during my bday weekend that i shared his penis with another girl even......so it truly depends.



wow! nope, I can tell my mom anything..but would NEVER tell her things like that, OMG. That would just hurt her and there is no way I would ever do that on purpose. She is sad enough that I have not met Mr. Right!


um...

i'm the mom in that sort of a mother/daughter relationship.    satan can and will tell me anything...i know entirely too much about her sex life, and how built her boyfriend is.  she knows about *some* of my sex life, my submissive tendencies, Daddy, and the other guy i see, too. 

all i ever want for her is for her to be happy.  she's 25, has a new car, a wonderful guy, a good job...and is pretty happy.  so its all good between us.

kitten

(in reply to sexyred1)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Bad for Personal Development? - 1/31/2008 4:12:18 PM   
Evility


Posts: 915
Joined: 12/19/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ryugen
So I'll pose the conclusion of my debate with her to you, despite my arguments I couldn't quite win against her anyway. I guess her having over twice as many years as me makes her a sure winner anyway 


So is this about doing something that you enjoy and that makes you happy or is this about the ability to win a debate with your mom? Do you realize that you can never win this debate until your mother says "Okay, son - I admit that you are right" and you know that is never going to happen.



(in reply to Ryugen)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Bad for Personal Development? - 1/31/2008 4:19:49 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1

Hon, I know you are very young and close to your mom. I am best friends with my mom and my dad, but there is not a chance in hell I would be discussing my sex life or BDSM with them. I think something called boundaries is a good thing when dealing with parents.


Depends on the parents. Val's parents are ex-hippies and they know how our relationship works.

Edited to add: While we don't give them details of our sex life, they have a general idea and they know we are being safe. If I recall correctly, one of the first things they asked when he told them he was dating someone was if he was getting sex, though I'm sure they phrased it better.

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 1/31/2008 4:22:27 PM >

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to sexyred1)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Bad for Personal Development? - 1/31/2008 4:21:21 PM   
sexyred1


Posts: 8998
Joined: 8/9/2007
Status: offline 		I guess so...I guess because I am so old and my mom is old I cannot get with the program...

(in reply to AquaticSub)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Bad for Personal Development? - 1/31/2008 4:24:54 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1

I guess so...I guess because I am so old and my mom is old I cannot get with the program...


*Grins* I wouldn't call it not being with the program. On the flip side, my parents know but we don't talk about it. They only know because my Mom accidently opened my toybox once while when I still living on campus and was home for the summer. After that we managed to agree without actually saying it that I needed a specific box that she knew not to open and I was gifted with a large hatbox.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to sexyred1)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Bad for Personal Development? - 1/31/2008 4:59:36 PM   
Prinsexx


Posts: 4584
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ryugen


Myself and my mother had a talk yesterday about submission and what s-types get out of it. A bit of background for you all, she knows I'm into the lifestyle and identify as a Dom.

Honestly? I couldn't get much past this ponit. How great to have a mother with whom you can even have a discussion. That kind of support would have been the best start in my bdsm life imagineable. Most things about myself I had to hide from my mother for fear of drunken abuse, silence or just more and more of the same negative put downs....
what ekse do you need to take into the debatem in fact, what else is there to take into the denate other than the integirty of your own experiences?

(in reply to Ryugen)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Bad for Personal Development? - 1/31/2008 5:01:00 PM   
Prinsexx


Posts: 4584
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1

I guess so...I guess because I am so old and my mom is old I cannot get with the program...

i love good irony

(in reply to sexyred1)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Bad for Personal Development? - 1/31/2008 5:03:34 PM   
Prinsexx


Posts: 4584
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterWilliam55

The abdication of responsibility is not neccessarly an act of submission.

If only it were life would have been sublime.......

(in reply to MasterWilliam55)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Bad for Personal Development? - 1/31/2008 5:23:14 PM   
Shawn1066


Posts: 987
Joined: 10/7/2007
Status: offline 		Since becoming my Owner's property, I've gotten tons more responsibility...both to her and to myself.  She could testify that I am, by no means, her slave just so I can somehow hide from responsibility.  In fact, it's really helped my personal development.  Since she's come into my life, I've really begun to push myself harder to be a better person.

I don't abdicate responsibilty...I take on more.  After all, her happiness and well being is now just as much my responsibility as mine is to hers.

DV's Fox


< Message edited by Shawn1066 -- 1/31/2008 5:25:07 PM >

(in reply to OmegaG)
Profile   Post #: 40
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