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RE: ouch- USA people hated - 2/1/2008 12:52:54 PM   
Gwynvyd


Posts: 4949
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aubre

Stalin murdered many more people than there ever were slaves in the United States.


Slavery and genocide are like comparing apples and oranges... as is comparing the genocide, and decesmation of the Native American tribes in the Americas.

If you ask a Jew they will say thiers was worse, you ask a black thiers, ask a native american ours... YMMV.

It all sucks, it was all wrong, it should never happen again.

Those who do not learn from thier history are doomed to repeat it. Simple as that.

Thinking inventions of who made what and squabbling over it really doesnt matter in the end... We are all one human race, and each of us held accountable for ourselves. To that end.. also held accountable to what we allow our societies to create and run with. Should Hitler be the only accountable person, or should some of the German people be accountable for allowing him to stay in power, and even be raised up with that thinking? Should only Dubbya be held accountable? or should the American people be held partialy to blame for not speaking up, and allowing him to do as he has? Same with all bad leaders over time. If you go along with the policies that you know are bad, and misguided then what makes you any better then those who are making the policies?  if you can honestly say You rallied and you fought it.. then well good for you. Hopefuly you didnt end up in a bag some where. ( watch V for Vendetta some time)

World history over time shows we all have our bad spots. No one better then the other.. Except for the French.. they are better then all of us.. it is a cross we all must simply bear. *snickers*

Gwyn

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(in reply to Aubre)
Profile   Post #: 161
RE: ouch- USA people hated - 2/1/2008 1:03:55 PM   
RealityLicks


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Joined: 10/23/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112
10% of Gulag populations died each year. Those that did not die were given inadequate food, shelter, clothing, and medical care. It was an reincarnation of Russian serfdom that had existed under the Tsar's. Moreover, anyone could be sent to the gulags at any time, with no warning and no trial.

When you enslave an entire nation....in my book, yes, that's worse than pre-Civil Wad slavery.


How many new-born babies were consigned to a lifetime in the Gulag?

How many women were raped to re-populate the Gulag?

What spurious racial science was created, condemning these children and women to their fate?

Whatever the wrongs of the Gulag system, it was a penal system. It removed people, spuriously purported to be dangerous, from society. It wasn't a quasi-genocidal and exploitative system which inspires hate crime to this day and it is utterly contemptible to try to equate the one with the other.

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Profile   Post #: 162
RE: ouch- USA people hated - 2/1/2008 1:19:36 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112
10% of Gulag populations died each year. Those that did not die were given inadequate food, shelter, clothing, and medical care. It was an reincarnation of Russian serfdom that had existed under the Tsar's. Moreover, anyone could be sent to the gulags at any time, with no warning and no trial.

When you enslave an entire nation....in my book, yes, that's worse than pre-Civil Wad slavery.


How many new-born babies were consigned to a lifetime in the Gulag?

How many women were raped to re-populate the Gulag?

What spurious racial science was created, condemning these children and women to their fate?

Whatever the wrongs of the Gulag system, it was a penal system. It removed people, spuriously purported to be dangerous, from society. It wasn't a quasi-genocidal and exploitative system which inspires hate crime to this day and it is utterly contemptible to try to equate the one with the other.


Different philosophical foundations to be sure, but to argue that the Gulag was NOT genocidal while arguing that American slavery was is an abrupt departure from reality.

Perversely, there was little that was genocidal about American slavery--the goals of slavery were cheap labor, not racial/ethnic/cultural extinction.

Lest you overlook my position while ranting about evil America, I will reiterate here: Slavery in the South was morally reprehensible, but no more so than other exploitations that have occurred and continue to occur around the world even today.

There is evil in the world. The US does not have a monopoly on it. When you argue otherwise, you are ignoring the bulk of human history. That is the reality of the matter.

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Profile   Post #: 163
RE: ouch- USA people hated - 2/1/2008 1:44:48 PM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Different philosophical foundations to be sure, but to argue that the Gulag was NOT genocidal while arguing that American slavery was is an abrupt departure from reality.

Perversely, there was little that was genocidal about American slavery--the goals of slavery were cheap labor, not racial/ethnic/cultural extinction.

Lest you overlook my position while ranting about evil America, I will reiterate here: Slavery in the South was morally reprehensible, but no more so than other exploitations that have occurred and continue to occur around the world even today.

There is evil in the world. The US does not have a monopoly on it. When you argue otherwise, you are ignoring the bulk of human history. That is the reality of the matter.


As a historian, you make a great computer expert.

Firstly, show me my "rant" on "evil America". I'd be quite keen to see that, as I have no memory of producing one.

Secondly, I think to remove the culture of a people on pain of death - as happened in the US - is nothing other than genocide. You won't find any evidence of that in the Gulag, either. The culture and ethnicity was effectively stripped from African slaves and what persists does so by virtue of their indomitable human spirit, nothing else.

I'd be grateful if you could return to my earlier questions. For example, why have you claimed the US to be the world's leading donor of foreign aid, when in reality you are among the most parsimonious? You omitted to respond, strangely.

If you want my opinion, you are overly invested in a myth of national character, as opposed to the truth. You clearly believe the crap fed to you by a dumbed-down media. Why, I don't know. Nowhere have I said that all evil comes from America, yet you feel the need to defend against it. That form of nationalism, jingoism - call it what you like - is, I think, less prevalent here in Europe, where there tends to be a kind of general cynicism. And by "you" I do mean you, NOT all Americans - but hey, if the cap fits.

It's nonsense to equate 250 years of slavery with 25 years of Stalin. So If I'm the one ignoring the bulk of human history, please enlighten me by going back through what I've written and giving counter-arguments.

(in reply to celticlord2112)
Profile   Post #: 164
RE: ouch- USA people hated - 2/1/2008 1:55:58 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Different philosophical foundations to be sure, but to argue that the Gulag was NOT genocidal while arguing that American slavery was is an abrupt departure from reality.

Perversely, there was little that was genocidal about American slavery--the goals of slavery were cheap labor, not racial/ethnic/cultural extinction.

Lest you overlook my position while ranting about evil America, I will reiterate here: Slavery in the South was morally reprehensible, but no more so than other exploitations that have occurred and continue to occur around the world even today.

There is evil in the world. The US does not have a monopoly on it. When you argue otherwise, you are ignoring the bulk of human history. That is the reality of the matter.


I'd be grateful if you could return to my earlier questions. For example, why have you claimed the US to be the world's leading donor of foreign aid, when in reality you are among the most parsimonious? You omitted to respond, strangely.



Actually, I simply missed that one. Nothing strange about that.

I posted a link showing statistics on foreign aid donations worldwide. If you claim the empirical data is in error, the burden of proof is upon you to show how it is in error. You offer up no factual basis for your claim.

There, it has been addressed. Not to your satisfaction, of course, but you will eventually learn to deal with that.

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Profile   Post #: 165
RE: ouch- USA people hated - 2/1/2008 2:00:13 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
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quote:

Secondly, I think to remove the culture of a people on pain of death - as happened in the US - is nothing other than genocide. You won't find any evidence of that in the Gulag, either. The culture and ethnicity was effectively stripped from African slaves and what persists does so by virtue of their indomitable human spirit, nothing else.


Your history is revisonist.
It was not the US that did that, it was the world. Starting with the European slavers who populated all their colonies (with 80% of the slaves going to other locations than the US).
And when the US had a civil war putting the coffin nail in that form of slavery, the neo imperialists switched to opium or anything else that would keep subjugating humans around to world and maximize the filling of European royal and upper class coffers. 

Things have come full circle now, and human slavery in its recent incarnation is again a growth industry, with the rest of the world profitting and being either actively or tacitly complicit, while people in the US speak out against it, and US law enforcement conducts raids and prosecutes.

Good luck trying to ride that 'US owns slavery' horse out of here, it doesn't look like it is capable of moving.

(in reply to RealityLicks)
Profile   Post #: 166
RE: ouch- USA people hated - 2/1/2008 2:00:43 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline 		Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide

Cultural discrminations and eradications are an evil unto themselves, but no, they are not genocide. Neither is slavery.

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Profile   Post #: 167
RE: ouch- USA people hated - 2/1/2008 3:04:55 PM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Fast Reply to no one or everyone.

http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-top-ten/world-top-ten-doners-of-foreigner-aid-map.html

Take careful note of which country sits in the number one spot.



There it is! You can set your watch by it and we all know which way the thread goes from here.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/05/business_aid_and_development/html/2.stm

Luckily, you don't speak for all Americans. If you did, perhaps the antipathy this thread bemoans mught be justified.


You're struggling?

I've highlighted your previous statement: you wanted careful note to be taken of something. Click on the link I've included and take careful note of what you see.

Anyone looking at your photo can see you aren't a smug man. Can you explain just what point you were trying to make by calling attention to US foreign aid donations? Preferably through the medium of pressing your fingers to the keyboard to form words for me to read?


(in reply to RealityLicks)
Profile   Post #: 168
RE: ouch- USA people hated - 2/1/2008 3:09:19 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline 		Or ignore, while pontificating based on rumors and myths....

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Profile   Post #: 169
RE: ouch- USA people hated - 2/1/2008 3:13:26 PM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado
Your history is revisonist.
It was not the US that did that, it was the world.


Excuse me? It was "the world" that ran slavery in the US?

quote:

 
And when the US had a civil war putting the coffin nail in that form of slavery,


You mean, finally caught up with the nations it considered its peers?

quote:


the neo imperialists switched to opium or anything else that would keep subjugating humans around to world and maximize the filling of European royal and upper class coffers. 


Huh? Once again please, in English?

quote:


Good luck trying to ride that 'US owns slavery' horse out of here, it doesn't look like it is capable of moving.


Ahem. OK.

Giddy-up! Oh, look, I'm moving really fast! Woah boy, Woah!

(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 170
RE: ouch- USA people hated - 2/1/2008 3:14:56 PM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		There's a Parliamentary expression we have which seems quite adroit now. It's quite simple.... ready?

Answer! Answer!

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Profile   Post #: 171
RE: ouch- USA people hated - 2/1/2008 3:22:38 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		I have a passport. Two in fact.  There is alot of places in the USA to see- Ild love to see every national park.

(in reply to RealityLicks)
Profile   Post #: 172
RE: ouch- USA people hated - 2/1/2008 3:23:29 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline
quote:

It was "the world" that ran slavery in the US?


How did I know that your bigotry would lead you to climb out on that particular limb and start sawing?

Feel free to hide behind the delusion that the USof A and not the rest of the world bears all responsibility for something that made Europeans rich long before there even was a US (and long after the US ended it).

(in reply to RealityLicks)
Profile   Post #: 173
RE: ouch- USA people hated - 2/1/2008 3:32:49 PM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

Feel free to hide behind the delusion that the USof A and not the rest of the world bears all responsibility for something that made Europeans rich long before there even was a US (and long after the US ended it).


Much as I am enjoying this demanding battle of wits, this has to be my last post tonight.

I am saying that the US bears responsibility for slavery in the US.  How on earth can you contest that?

Seriously though, don't reply until you have something worth saying, ok?

Have a ball.

(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 174
RE: ouch- USA people hated - 2/1/2008 3:36:52 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Fast Reply to no one or everyone.

http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-top-ten/world-top-ten-doners-of-foreigner-aid-map.html

Take careful note of which country sits in the number one spot.



There it is! You can set your watch by it and we all know which way the thread goes from here.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/05/business_aid_and_development/html/2.stm

Luckily, you don't speak for all Americans. If you did, perhaps the antipathy this thread bemoans mught be justified.


You're struggling?

I've highlighted your previous statement: you wanted careful note to be taken of something. Click on the link I've included and take careful note of what you see.

Anyone looking at your photo can see you aren't a smug man. Can you explain just what point you were trying to make by calling attention to US foreign aid donations? Preferably through the medium of pressing your fingers to the keyboard to form words for me to read?




You call the US "parsimonious" because it's foreign aid is the smallest percentage of its Gross Domestic Product. Never mind the fact that the US economy, by that same measure, is roughly 3x as large as the number 2 economy in the world (Japan).

This is a straw man argument. It does not negate the reality of the fact that the US contributes more dollars in foreign aid than any other country (33% more give or take). You have not even addressed that fact. Ironic that you accused me of "ignoring" this post. Now that I see it, I can see why such a thin piece of fluff escaped my attention on first pass.

You aren't offering debate. You're spewing propaganda. Rant and pontificate all you like, you cannot change the reality of empirical data. (Not that you pay much attention to fact, when polemical demogoguery is obviously far more entertaining to you).

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Profile   Post #: 175
RE: ouch- USA people hated - 2/1/2008 3:37:24 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

Secondly, I think to remove the culture of a people on pain of death - as happened in the US - is nothing other than genocide. You won't find any evidence of that in the Gulag, either. The culture and ethnicity was effectively stripped from African slaves and what persists does so by virtue of their indomitable human spirit, nothing else.


Your history is revisonist.
It was not the US that did that, it was the world. Starting with the European slavers who populated all their colonies (with 80% of the slaves going to other locations than the US).
And when the US had a civil war putting the coffin nail in that form of slavery, the neo imperialists switched to opium or anything else that would keep subjugating humans around to world and maximize the filling of European royal and upper class coffers. 

The Civil War was nothing to do with slavery, that is revisionist nonsense. Actually royal families were not involved in slavery, it was the merchant classes.

Things have come full circle now, and human slavery in its recent incarnation is again a growth industry, with the rest of the world profitting and being either actively or tacitly complicit, while people in the US speak out against it, and US law enforcement conducts raids and prosecutes.

What exactly does the US enforce? I'm all ears. If the US was really against human exploitation, it would be prosecuting a lot of US companies. I'm not saying the companies of other countries are better, iI'm asking specifically about US companies because you are under the illusion the US is doing something about it.

Good luck trying to ride that 'US owns slavery' horse out of here, it doesn't look like it is capable of moving.

It was the founding fathers that spouted liberty and the rights of man while berating King George but it was the founding fathers who owned slaves while King George owned none.





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Profile   Post #: 176
RE: ouch- USA people hated - 2/1/2008 3:44:15 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

It was "the world" that ran slavery in the US?


How did I know that your bigotry would lead you to climb out on that particular limb and start sawing?

Feel free to hide behind the delusion that the USof A and not the rest of the world bears all responsibility for something that made Europeans rich long before there even was a US (and long after the US ended it).


While you can blame Europe for the black slave trade ( to be specific as slavery always having existed) to the Americas, after independence the US was responsible for slavery within  its borders and it wasn't in a rush to get rid of slavery http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolitionism and when it eventually got rid of slavery many blacks found themselves in just as bad conditions in the industrial towns of the north.

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There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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Profile   Post #: 177
RE: ouch- USA people hated - 2/1/2008 3:53:43 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

Feel free to hide behind the delusion that the USof A and not the rest of the world bears all responsibility for something that made Europeans rich long before there even was a US (and long after the US ended it).


Much as I am enjoying this demanding battle of wits, this has to be my last post tonight.

I am saying that the US bears responsibility for slavery in the US.  How on earth can you contest that?

Seriously though, don't reply until you have something worth saying, ok?

Have a ball.


Feel free to try to stop me from replying...I'm betting your imaginary prowess will fail you there as it has elsewhere. 

You claimed that the US as a nation was responsible for slaves sent over by the Europeans at a time when the US did not even exist, then feigned the position that the actual history was incomprehensible to you.

Stay confused for all I care, but don't get pissy when I compare your behavior to that of other bigots who label an entire nation, race, or whatever based on revisionism.

< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 2/1/2008 3:54:06 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 178
RE: ouch- USA people hated - 2/1/2008 4:31:49 PM   
Maya2001


Posts: 1656
Joined: 8/22/2007
From: Woodstock ONT,CANADA
Status: offline
quote:

Arguing with me on how americans arent innovators doesnt make you right, just because you misread what I am saying.
quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Fast Reply to no one or everyone.

http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-top-ten/world-top-ten-doners-of-foreigner-aid-map.html

Take careful note of which country sits in the number one spot.


Problem with this is it is based of $ figures only.......... for the 3 rd largest populated country in the world and one of the wealthiest the $ figure shown  is piss poor  and as american should be seen as a shame not something to boast about

if broken done into a per capita basis based on population size  US would be at the bottom of the pile, and this needs to be taken into consideration as contributions come out of taxes paid. when looked at that way ... the US looks pretty shitty and selfish compared to nations with lot smaller populations therefore a smaller tax base to donate from,  the US might not even make the top 10 list this way as their may be countries who donate less so did not make the list but have small pop but when convert on pop. basis would have donated more per capita


US--       303 m pop   donates 12.9 bill  equivalent based on US pop
Japan --   128                             9.2             21.7 billion
Germany    82                             5.4             20
France        64                             5.2             24.6
UK             60                             4.9             24.7
Netherl      16.4                            3.4             62.8
Italy            59                              2.3             11.8
Canada       33                               2               18.4
Sweden         9                               1.8            60.6
Norway       4.7                              1.8           116


Who would have thought that based on population size and economy  that Norway would be the most generous country on that list???

And that the US is one of  the least generous considering it's size and  wealth????




< Message edited by Maya2001 -- 2/1/2008 4:36:50 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 179
RE: ouch- USA people hated - 2/1/2008 4:51:59 PM   
Hippiekinkster


Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline 		Thing about the foreign aid numbers, it's not clear that every nation accounts for that aid in the same way. For instance, are the costs of aid workers, technical advisors, etc., included or not? Are private contributions included or not? I'm sure y'all can think of a couple more questions.

I really can't draw any conclusions without understanding the methodology.

(in reply to Maya2001)
Profile   Post #: 180
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