RE: I am a feminist. (Full Version)

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Shawn1066 -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/5/2008 12:36:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shawn1066

Which is unfair because there's no Fatherhood Penalty that I'm currently aware of.(Though I could be wrong)




In general, the "Fatherhood Penalty" is an earlier death than women.

Firm




I'm very amused by your response, and that is food for thought, heh.

DV's Fox.



GoddessDustyGold -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/5/2008 2:25:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
We're born as blank slates. Unless you reject that, you must cede that there are formative influences that cause misogyny.


I agree entirely. 


Both you and Aswad are firmly on the "nurture" side of the "nature versus nurture" debate?

Perhaps I'm misreading, or missing your true meaning, or perhaps you are talking only about certain aspects of human infants being "blank slates", so ... please, if either of you will, enlighten me.

To me, it appears to be illogical to claim that human's are born "blank slates" and then attempt to make the argument that certain functions and intellectual areas (such as language) are "hard-wired".

Firm



*laffing*  I guess I do not come from the totally "blank slate" end of the spectrum.  My Mother used to tell the story of Me being in the tub with My brother who was barely three.  Apparently I did something like take a tub toy away or splash to which this tiny male responded in an accusatory tone "You're so mean, no wonder your's fell off!"
I see the same facination and pride in a little winky in My grandson who will not be 2 for another few weeks.
*shrug*   
Nurture is certainly very important, but I do not believe in the nature's totally blank slate theory either.



OrionTheWolf -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/5/2008 2:36:19 PM)

Actually the studies this economist did showed that over a 20 year period, males produced more work hours than females. The reasons being time off for child birth and taking care of the kids. While some males may do this, it is not the norm. Equitable treatment as far as equal pay for the same job and amount of hours worked is fine. I just do not wish to see the differences in the genders completely washed away, in an attempt to make everyone the same.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shawn1066

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

~FR~

There was an economist that recently wrote a book, that was on the one of the news shows recently. He mentioned that looking at the male and females, that the disparity in pay often coincided with the fact many females had to take more time off due to family matters (having babies, kids sick, etc.).


Yes, but males who take time off for similar reasons don't have similar results...  There are men who take off just as much as women do to help with the children, and they don't suffer a disparity in pay.

Just what I've read.

Anywho.  I'm a feminist.  A Conservative, southern, white male feminist.  Those really can all go together.

DV's Fox



OrionTheWolf -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/5/2008 2:39:03 PM)

Why is it unfair, if a worker works less time then they should get less pay. This should be regardless of sex, but Men rarely take off alot of time when a child is born, at least according to the economist on HNN that I am refering to. Also, if an individual produces better results, they should get more money, but much of that does not occur for fear of discrimination claims.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shawn1066

Which is unfair because there's no Fatherhood Penalty that I'm currently aware of.(Though I could be wrong)

Now, there are certain professions where women make more money than men, by and large, and this is wrong as well.

DV's Fox




Smith117 -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/5/2008 4:11:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

What does it mean to be a feminist?  It means that women are entitled to equal pay for equal work.  It means that women should have the same educational opportunities as men.  It means that a person's genitalia should not dictate her--or his--entire future.  It means that women should not have to tolerate sexual harassment, and NOT because it might cause a lawsuit.  It means that women are deserving of the same respect as men. 


This right here pretty much highlights my problem with the whole "feminism movement".

Take an all male workplace, look how the men interact. They joke, they make comments, they rib each other. Add a woman into the mix and suddenly the men have to "clean up their act." Not only do they have to treat the new staff member with kid gloves, they can't even make the same jokes they normally would, even if they in no way pertain to the new staff member.

Feminists claim they want equal treatment but they don't. Equal means one of the group. Not 'special' because of your gender. By forcing men to "clean up their acts" and curb certain discussions or jokes just because "there's a lady present" is EXACTLY the type of thing feminists claim not to want.

A case in point I recently heard about was when men in an airline mechanics shop had a calender of bikini-clad women on their office wall. Then they got a new female coworker and suddenly the calender is unacceptable amd had to come down. If things were supposed to be equal and if the woman's gender shouldn't matter, then it shouldn't matter that there was a calender of women wearing very acceptable clothing on an office wall.

Sexual harrassment itself is a joke to me. It's gone way too far the other way. Now most guys are afraid to even compliment a woman in their office for fear of ending up in HR. God forbid you make the woman actually have to reject you. Suddenly you're looking at an HR worker asking why you're harrassing the female staff members.



Smith117 -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/5/2008 4:15:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Why is it unfair, if a worker works less time then they should get less pay. This should be regardless of sex, but Men rarely take off alot of time when a child is born, at least according to the economist on HNN that I am refering to. Also, if an individual produces better results, they should get more money, but much of that does not occur for fear of discrimination claims.


Excellent point. Women often complain about the paygap, but then men can't take off for things like having a child, or..."that time of the month." (Yes I've seen it happen)

Hell these days, (as I recently found out) a pregnant woman can't even be laid off like her male counterparts. I had a coworker in a place I worked recently who I was told, flat out, would have been fired months back if not for the fact that she were pregnant. By the time that was no longer an issue, the boss who wanted her gone had moved onto another company to get away from the BS.



kitttty -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/5/2008 6:44:33 PM)

quote:



Take an all male workplace, look how the men interact. They joke, they make comments, they rib each other. Add a woman into the mix and suddenly the men have to "clean up their act." Not only do they have to treat the new staff member with kid gloves, they can't even make the same jokes they normally would, even if they in no way pertain to the new staff member.


What about an all white workplace- I guess the white guys get to make jokes about nigs until one day a black co worker shows up.

Or how about getting to make fun of the mentally disabled until one of your co workers has a child with a disability.

...Oh wait- it's *never* appropriate to make fun of blacks or the disabled. Just women.

Anything that you can't do when that woman is not around is something you shouldn't be doing anyways. Women should not feel pressured to be one of the guys and roll with jokes that are offensive to our gender. It's the men who have to change and that is equality. It's not about pretending to be one of the cro magnon like sexist pigs of guys. It's about being treated with the basic respect that should be accorded to us.



Smith117 -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/5/2008 6:48:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kitttty

quote:



Take an all male workplace, look how the men interact. They joke, they make comments, they rib each other. Add a woman into the mix and suddenly the men have to "clean up their act." Not only do they have to treat the new staff member with kid gloves, they can't even make the same jokes they normally would, even if they in no way pertain to the new staff member.


What about an all white workplace- I guess the white guys get to make jokes about nigs until one day a black co worker shows up.

Or how about getting to make fun of the mentally disabled until one of your co workers has a child with a disability.

...Oh wait- it's *never* appropriate to make fun of blacks or the disabled. Just women.

Anything that you can't do when that woman is not around is something you shouldn't be doing anyways. Women should not feel pressured to be one of the guys and roll with jokes that are offensive to our gender. It's the men who have to change and that is equality. It's not about pretending to be one of the cro magnon like sexist pigs of guys. It's about being treated with the basic respect that should be accorded to us.


We have our first contestant on "read what I say before slamming me."

I never said the jokes were about women. I just said they were jokes. Automatically, you assume that means making fun of women. How about the word "fuck?" Let's start there. Though not always a nice word, tis a fairly common word around guys who are just being guys. Yet when the women show up, we have to 'watch our language.' So some of these jobs who were "boys' clubs" are being forced to alter how they speak, act, behave, SIMPLY AND ONLY because there's no a woman present. That is NOT equal.



Alumbrado -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/5/2008 6:50:01 PM)

quote:


What about an all white workplace- I guess the white guys get to make jokes about nigs until one day a black co worker shows up.

Or how about getting to make fun of the mentally disabled until one of your co workers has a child with a disability.

...Oh wait- it's *never* appropriate to make fun of blacks or the disabled. Just women.

Anything that you can't do when that woman is not around is something you shouldn't be doing anyways. Women should not feel pressured to be one of the guys and roll with jokes that are offensive to our gender. It's the men who have to change and that is equality. It's not about pretending to be one of the cro magnon like sexist pigs of guys. It's about being treated with the basic respect that should be accorded to us.


[sm=applause.gif]



kitttty -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/5/2008 6:56:01 PM)

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Now, it's clearly sad that it is so. The women who believe things should be as they are in fundamentalist countries in the Middle East, for instance, are more numerous than those who believe things should be more like they are in the West. And I deem that to be bad taste on their part. But I still respect that stripping the majority of the right to choose, in favor of the minority, is nothing but another form of oppression, regardless of how well-intentioned it is. If one wants to do so, fine. Conquer. Rule. But don't call it liberation.


Honestly, this is the dumbest thing that has been said in this debate.

This is exactly why the Middle East can't grasp democracy. Because they think that it means majority rule.

The holocaust happened because no one stripped the majority of the right to choose in favor of the minority. Slavery existed for the same reason.

Do you want the vanilla majority to persecute kink? They do not have the right.

This is what so many idiot westerners can't seem to grasp somehow. Is that there is no country in the world devoid of people with liberal secular mind sets. The middle east has its share of atheists (who can be killed), marxists (who can be killed) and women who want to be treated with legal equality.

What the hell is wrong with you to say that those people with the same thinking as people here have, should be oppressed simply because they happen to live in areas where others want to persecute them for thinking differently. It just so happens that the principle of live and let live could exist in the rest of the world too.

quote:

You hold it to be good to impose your will on others; I hold that to be the definition of oppression.



WTF. So the west can't impose our will on nations in order to make them recognize that gay people and sexually active women have a right to life because that is oppression. Yet, mullahs and clerics can sentence them to death with the auspices of the majority and that is not oppression?

Hello- in the latter case, there is a pure instance of will being imposed on another. In the former case, it is merely one party preventing another from imposing persecutiion.



kitttty -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/5/2008 7:03:19 PM)

quote:

So some of these jobs who were "boys' clubs" are being forced to alter how they speak, act, behave, SIMPLY AND ONLY because there's no a woman present. That is NOT equal.


Yes it is. The fact that they can't act the same around women does not imply inequality. It implies that the guys act in a sexist and offensive way and that they know it and know to hide it.

The guys were acting in a way that promotes discrimination. The way they act when a woman is around is ideally how they should always act. Then there would be no discrepancy between what you do when a woman is around and when one is not and there would be no need to clean up the act. That would be actual equality.



ShaktiSama -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/5/2008 7:04:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
Both you and Aswad are firmly on the "nurture" side of the "nature versus nurture" debate?


It depends on what is being ascribed to nature and nurture.

Language ability, for example, is hard-wired into the human brain.  But exactly what language you grow up speaking?  Is obviously a product of your environment.  No one is "born" speaking Japanese or English.  They learn it.

Similarly, cultural acquisition is a hard-wired human trait.  But what culture you acquire?  Depends entirely on the environment in which you are raised.

There are various other aspects of a person's behavior and abilities which vary from person to person:  intelligence, leadership ability, tendency to violence, athletic ability, etc..  But these basic tendencies are distributed roughly evenly throughout the human population, with very little differentiation between males and females.

It's in the expression of certain traits that the social environment is key.  Some societies naturalize and stigmatize certain behaviors--like sexual expression and sexual dominance, for example--based on gender.

That ain't nature.  That's culture.  ;)



Smith117 -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/5/2008 7:07:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kitttty

quote:

So some of these jobs who were "boys' clubs" are being forced to alter how they speak, act, behave, SIMPLY AND ONLY because there's no a woman present. That is NOT equal.


Yes it is. The fact that they can't act the same around women does not imply inequality. It implies that the guys act in a sexist and offensive way and that they know it and know to hide it.

The guys were acting in a way that promotes discrimination. The way they act when a woman is around is ideally how they should always act. Then there would be no discrepancy between what you do when a woman is around and when one is not and there would be no need to clean up the act. That would be actual equality.


And who exactly are women to decide how men should act? That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. So you want men to watch what they say and do not only when you're there, but also when you're not? Give me a break. Women are not the authority on mens' behavior. And to come into their workplace and demand they change themselves because of YOU is not equal. YOU assimilate into the workplace, do NOT make the workplace change to accomodate you. Then perhaps you won't have to tolerate hearing women called the 'weaker sex."



kitttty -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/5/2008 7:14:56 PM)

quote:

And who exactly are women to decide how men should act?


Half the fucking world. Who were black people to 'decide' how white people should act? That was called the civil rights movement.

quote:

That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. So you want men to watch what they say and do not only when you're there, but also when you're not? Give me a break. Women are not the authority on mens' behavior. And to come into their workplace and demand they change themselves because of YOU is not equal. YOU assimilate into the workplace, do NOT make the workplace change to accomodate you. Then perhaps you won't have to tolerate hearing women called the 'weaker sex."


Why? Why should women tolerate the norms of the workplace which were handed down from generations of sexist society? Because the sexism was there first?

And what the hell is this dichotomy- women are not the authority of men? Well, we shouldn't have to be. Some men should step up the plate and tell their peers to stop being sexist when women aren't there. Men should understand themselves why it is wrong to be sexist and act boorish.

Who are you to tell women that they should shut up and assimilate? If women want to voice their reservations and sense of being disrespected then that's exactly what they should do. Change happens when you make it. If you don't like it, too bad.

And shame on you for making women who are the butt of sexism in the workplace seem like they should sack up and put their big girl panties on. Um no. How about they make the people who are acting in offensive way change. That's acting tough 'as a guy' right there.




beargonewild -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/5/2008 7:18:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kitttty

quote:

So some of these jobs who were "boys' clubs" are being forced to alter how they speak, act, behave, SIMPLY AND ONLY because there's no a woman present. That is NOT equal.


Yes it is. The fact that they can't act the same around women does not imply inequality. It implies that the guys act in a sexist and offensive way and that they know it and know to hide it.

The guys were acting in a way that promotes discrimination. The way they act when a woman is around is ideally how they should always act. Then there would be no discrepancy between what you do when a woman is around and when one is not and there would be no need to clean up the act. That would be actual equality.


Granted this does make sense, yet I have to wonder if the opposite situation occurs if the equality is still being applied? I am referring to a segment of the female gender who in some situations will speak in a manner which is considered "sailor talk" yet when a man enters the scene, they often clean up their language because of this. How I see is equality has to be a two way street.



kitttty -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/5/2008 7:25:04 PM)

quote:


Granted this does make sense, yet I have to wonder if the opposite situation occurs if the equality is still being applied? I am referring to a segment of the female gender who in some situations will speak in a manner which is considered "sailor talk" yet when a man enters the scene, they often clean up their language because of this. How I see is equality has to be a two way street.



I don't know women who do precisely that, but in both cases groups of men and groups of women probably change their behavior somewhat when a member of the opposite sex walks in so that they can appear more attractive. Both men and women put on airs to attract.

But that is not the same thing is changing ones behavior because you know it would be considered offensive to the person walking in- not because you even know that person, but because you know that your behavior is offensive to an entire category of people. Hello- that is a clear sign that your behavior is hateful.



Smith117 -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/5/2008 7:29:15 PM)

quote:



Half the fucking world. Who were black people to 'decide' how white people should act? That was called the civil rights movement.



Perhaps, before we continue this discussion, you should work to separate mentally the difference between racist speech and two guys talking on monday morning about how hot a girl was that one slept with over the weekend. Can we do that? Ok? Great. Moving on....

quote:



Why? Why should women tolerate the norms of the workplace which were handed down from generations of sexist society? Because the sexism was there first?



Again I will take a moment to point out, that I merely said "jokes" or even perhaps mentioned a bikini calender. The one who brought up sexism was YOU. If you cannot separate yourself emotionally enough to see the difference, perhaps you should refrain from trying to discuss this issue.

quote:



And what the hell is this dichotomy- women are not the authority of men? Well, we shouldn't have to be. Some men should step up the plate and tell their peers to stop being sexist when women aren't there. Men should understand themselves why it is wrong to be sexist and act boorish.



Who's to say what is boorish and what isn't? You? I think not. I was raised by my mom. A SINGLE, WORKING mom of 2. She said the word FUCK (for example) more than most men I knew at the time. Yet if I walk into a work place and banter that word about....here I go, off to talk to HR. If it was good enough for my mom, why is it not good enough for the workplace? How do we decide what is and is not good enough for the workplaces that women have, in their insecure zeal to prove their worth, invaded where previously none existed?

quote:



Who are you to tell women that they should shut up and assimilate? If women want to voice their reservations and sense of being disrespected then that's exactly what they should do. Change happens when you make it. If you don't like it, too bad.



This statement I found exceedingly hilarious. In one breath, you ask me who am I to tell women to shut up and assimilate and then you turn around and tell me that YOU are she who should have the athority to tell men they are not 'acting right' and must therefore conform to YOUR sensibilities. Does this irony register at all with you?

quote:



And shame on you for making women who are the butt of sexism in the workplace seem like they should sack up and put their big girl panties on. Um no. How about they make the people who are acting in offensive way change.



Even though this point beats a dead horse by this time, I will state it again. 'Twas you who mentioned the sexism. I merely said jokes, or behavior.

In this world and in this time, people will be offended. I'm offended by the feminist movement. Does that mean it should cease to bend to my will? Do I have legal grounds to sue every woman I meet because of the effects of feminism on my personal life? No. I do not. Nor should people be able to cry to HR or sue just because they overheard two guys sharing tales of their weekend over their morning coffee.

Sexism is not ok. I think we can all agree on that point so there's no point in going further. What is ALSO not right is someone coming into a workplace and making the entire place change its behavior based on that one person.

Why can't women take a page from the movie "G.I. Jane?"  That to me was the best example of a woman trying to assimilate into a formerly male-dominated field. She didn't make THEM change. She changed. At one point for those who remember the movie, she even told the lead instructor during a training exercise to "suck my dick."  *gasp* How lude! Let's drag her in front of HR for referencing a penis that she didn't have. Or maybe instead we can all just get a sense of humor....or better yet, mind our own fucking business and DO OUR FUCKING JOBS INSTEAD OF WORRYING ABOUT WHAT THE MEN ARE OR ARE NOT SAYING.




LadyHibiscus -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/5/2008 7:33:10 PM)

Boy, I miss not being able to get to this site during the workday/night!

In answer to various things.....

Dusty, women like you and I are rarities, in that we stand up for ouselves.  That we do it graciously and discreetly is even more unusual, but I think speaks to our age and upbringing.  Looking back, I know that I was subjected to what would be considered lawsuit level sexual harassment now, but at the time was just harmless behavior on the part of my boss. Yes, he was inappropriate, but I was never endangered, and no boundaries were crossed.  My reactions to his flirtations were what assured that. 

Regarding the whole "one of the boys" analogy and how men are supposed to be all nicey nice when the gals are around....hogwash!    Joking around is not an issue for me at all, though I admit freely that some behavior IS very offensive to me.  I would venture a guess that open cursing and racist remarks aren't accepted in ANY professional workplace, regardless of the gender of those working.   It is possible to laugh, joke, have fun, all without being an utter jackass.  It also means that a woman who wants to share a joke of her own is not less of  person, either.  (and yes, Bear, I DO try to be more ladylike around men!)

Want a pinup calendar?  Excellent!  I love pinups--just look at my profile pic!  My mother and I were both appalled when those absurd rulings started to come down restricting calendars.  But that sort of thing is not a part of feminism, it is a part of POLITICAL CORRECTNESS, a movement that I do not espouse. 

Equality of pay, parity of benefits, does not mean that we are all the SAME, it means that we are all on a level playing field.



beargonewild -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/5/2008 7:39:25 PM)

Ok, taking the stance that this type of behavior is inappropiate and considered offensive. Wouldn't it be a more easier path to effect change not by aggressiveness but through a calm dialogue to inform the offenders that their behavior isn' t welcomed?

I do realize that there is a vast inequality between the female and male species and it has been for x number of years. Change happens slowly to reach a balance or equalization especially in society. I may not be up to date regarding this issue or then what I have seen and experienced since I was born. Yet my common sense and logic tells me that it is one of my tasks to make the changes in myself. to change my attitude towards other people, to treat other people how I want to be treated, etc. All I can do as a male is to better myself and hope like hell that my example may be incentive for someone else in a positive manner.



Smith117 -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/5/2008 7:45:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

Boy, I miss not being able to get to this site during the workday/night!

In answer to various things.....

Dusty, women like you and I are rarities, in that we stand up for ouselves.  That we do it graciously and discreetly is even more unusual, but I think speaks to our age and upbringing.  Looking back, I know that I was subjected to what would be considered lawsuit level sexual harassment now, but at the time was just harmless behavior on the part of my boss. Yes, he was inappropriate, but I was never endangered, and no boundaries were crossed.  My reactions to his flirtations were what assured that. 

Regarding the whole "one of the boys" analogy and how men are supposed to be all nicey nice when the gals are around....hogwash!    Joking around is not an issue for me at all, though I admit freely that some behavior IS very offensive to me.  I would venture a guess that open cursing and racist remarks aren't accepted in ANY professional workplace, regardless of the gender of those working.   It is possible to laugh, joke, have fun, all without being an utter jackass.  It also means that a woman who wants to share a joke of her own is not less of  person, either.  (and yes, Bear, I DO try to be more ladylike around men!)

Want a pinup calendar?  Excellent!  I love pinups--just look at my profile pic!  My mother and I were both appalled when those absurd rulings started to come down restricting calendars.  But that sort of thing is not a part of feminism, it is a part of POLITICAL CORRECTNESS, a movement that I do not espouse. 

Equality of pay, parity of benefits, does not mean that we are all the SAME, it means that we are all on a level playing field.


[sm=applause.gif]

Very well said.



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