RE: I am a feminist.

RE: I am a feminist. (Full Version)

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kitttty -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/5/2008 7:51:45 PM)
quote: Perhaps, before we continue this discussion, you should work to separate mentally the difference between racist speech and two guys talking on monday morning about how hot a girl was that one slept with over the weekend. Can we do that? Ok? Great. Moving on.... No. There is no separation. Women as a group will not get offended if someone talks about a girl they are into. They will get offended if the men talk about her as though she is a peice of meat with wet holes. Try talking about that black hoodlum on the street you took out for fried chicken. That is exactly the same about talking about some hot chick you slept with. Women get offended when men talk about other women as things they fucked- not as people with feelings and personalities but just some hot girl they got the panties to drop on. quote: How do we decide what is and is not good enough for the workplaces that women have, in their insecure zeal to prove their worth, invaded where previously none existed? It is not insecure zeal to prove their worth. It is about not accepting behavior that implies women are sex objects. That is a legitimate desire to prove worth that we actually have. And no one cares if you say fuck unless you say it in an offensive way, which you clearly do and that is why you get sent to HR. quote: This statement I found exceedingly hilarious. In one breath, you ask me who am I to tell women to shut up and assimilate and then you turn around and tell me that YOU are she who should have the athority to tell men they are not 'acting right' and must therefore conform to YOUR sensibilities. Does this irony register at all with you? No irony. Might does not make right but it makes reality. Hence women should get their concerns realized. Men's 'sensibilities' have been to view women as sex objects (mainly) as speak of them as such. They should chance not because I say so but because their view is wrong and detrimental. quote: Even though this point beats a dead horse by this time, I will state it again. 'Twas you who mentioned the sexism. I merely said jokes, or behavior. If its behavior that offends women categorically, it is clearly sexist behavior. You seem to keep denying it, but it is. quote: That to me was the best example of a woman trying to assimilate into a formerly male-dominated field. She didn't make THEM change. She changed. GI Jane merely wanted the same job standards. You are talking about water cooler talk, not the job itself. Anyways, I will say it again- women should not be expected to become what guys have been because what guys have been is based on sexist expectations. Equality is achieved when women change their traditional role, which they do by joining the workplace and getting a good education and men also change by avoiding sexist behavior, which includes off color jokes and commentary about women as sex objects.

kitttty -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/5/2008 7:54:27 PM)
quote: Ok, taking the stance that this type of behavior is inappropiate and considered offensive. Wouldn't it be a more easier path to effect change not by aggressiveness but through a calm dialogue to inform the offenders that their behavior isn' t welcomed? That is what is done. No one is shooting people for sexist behavior in the workplace. People who offend are either called out or called to human resources. That's dialogue.

Smith117 -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/5/2008 8:09:26 PM)
quote: No. There is no separation. Women as a group will not get offended if someone talks about a girl they are into. They will get offended if the men talk about her as though she is a peice of meat with wet holes. This goes back to my final point in my last post. Who are you? Are they talking to you? No. So mind your own business and do your job. If you overheard something then say keep it down. Don't demand that HR take action because they are being sexist. quote: Try talking about that black hoodlum on the street you took out for fried chicken. That is exactly the same about talking about some hot chick you slept with. Women get offended when men talk about other women as things they fucked- not as people with feelings and personalities but just some hot girl they got the panties to drop on. I sound like a broken record, but I will state this again. I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT SEXISM. I DID NOT EVEN SAY "SEXIST JOKES" I SIMPLY SAID "JOKES." We all agree that sexism is bad, but you cannot sit there and tell me you are the authority who gets to decide, in a conversation you're not even involved in or addressed in, how two guys talk about someone whom you don't even know. Was that clear enough for you? quote: It is not insecure zeal to prove their worth. It is about not accepting behavior that implies women are sex objects. That is a legitimate desire to prove worth that we actually have. Actually, one who is 'secure' in their worth doesn't need to prove it. They don't need to run off and join a career field where they get shot at "just to prove they can." quote: No irony. Might does not make right but it makes reality. Hence women should get their concerns realized. Men's 'sensibilities' have been to view women as sex objects (mainly) as speak of them as such. They should chance not because I say so but because their view is wrong and detrimental. Wrong because you say? That's cute. quote: If its behavior that offends women categorically, it is clearly sexist behavior. You seem to keep denying it, but it is. No, actually what I am denying, and what you refuse to read, is that YOU are the one who said sexist. I simply said "jokes" or a "bikini calendar." I simply said "jokes" or a "bikini calendar."I simply said "jokes" or a "bikini calendar."I simply said "jokes" or a "bikini calendar."I simply said "jokes" or a "bikini calendar."I simply said "jokes" or a "bikini calendar."I simply said "jokes" or a "bikini calendar."I simply said "jokes" or a "bikini calendar."I simply said "jokes" or a "bikini calendar."I simply said "jokes" or a "bikini calendar."I simply said "jokes" or a "bikini calendar." Is that repeated enough for you? I can do it a few hundred more times if you need me to. quote: GI Jane merely wanted the same job standards. You are talking about water cooler talk, not the job itself. Anyways, I will say it again- women should not be expected to become what guys have been because what guys have been is based on sexist expectations. Equality is achieved when women change their traditional role, which they do by joining the workplace and getting a good education and men also change by avoiding sexist behavior, which includes off color jokes and commentary about women as sex objects. And I will again state that forcing your will upon anyone does not make it equal. I'll also point out that MANY women enjoy their 'traditional role.' I have met many who described being a housewife as "their own description of heaven." If you have a problem with how men talk about women....how about not eavesdropping on them and just get to work. Perhaps everyone will be happier then.

kitttty -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/5/2008 8:39:42 PM)
quote: If you have a problem with how men talk about women....how about not eavesdropping on them and just get to work. Perhaps everyone will be happier then. You're not even trying to understand what should be simple. If some white guys make a joke about black people should the black people who the joke was not addressed to just sit and be quiet? Obviously not. The fact that the joke was not addressed to the women does not change the fact that it was said and was inappropriate. quote: No, actually what I am denying, and what you refuse to read, is that YOU are the one who said sexist. I simply said "jokes" or a "bikini calendar." I simply said "jokes" or a "bikini calendar."I simply said "jokes" or a "bikini calendar."I simply said "jokes" or a "bikini calendar."I simply said "jokes" or a "bikini calendar."I simply said "jokes" or a "bikini calendar."I simply said "jokes" or a "bikini calendar."I simply said "jokes" or a "bikini calendar."I simply said "jokes" or a "bikini calendar."I simply said "jokes" or a "bikini calendar."I simply said "jokes" or a "bikini calendar." You said joke, but you meant sexist joke. Women generally are not offended by jokes. There is no need to 'tone down' plain old jokes. You have to tone them down if they are offensive. If they are offensive to women, they are sexist jokes. So, yes did say sexist jokes. You just did not know you implied it. I don't know how you can't grasp this- it's based completely on internal logic- if you know that you have to change your behavior because you can assume that the woman who hears will find your behavior offensive, your behavior is sexist. We aren't talking about some individual uptight woman whose reaction you could not have predicted- you are saying that as a rule, you know ahead of time that you have to change your behavior or else women will find it offensive. How can your behavior reliably elicit the same reaction in any number of unrelated women unless there is something inherant in your behavior that is offensive? quote: They don't need to run off and join a career field where they get shot at "just to prove they can." Is the guy who climbs mount everest just to prove he can insecure? Apparently women motivated by the desire to prove they can are insecure. So, what about everyone else with that motivation? In any case, women generally join careers for reasons such as they want to make money or they want to pursue an interest. But you seem to see women in the workplace asserting themselves as humans as some sort of show of insecurity and desire to prove that they can. quote: I'll also point out that MANY women enjoy their 'traditional role.' I have met many who described being a housewife as "their own description of heaven." MANY men also enjoy not being employed or being stay at home dads. You SUCK. Women should not feel that they are 'eavsdropping' for not being passive about men propogating SEXIST comments (your jokes and weekend escapade convos are clearly that). Fortunately, there will always be women like me to make sure that women do not feel that they have to sit down and shut up and pretend that sexist comments are not being made. There will be women like me to make sure that men like you can't successfully bully them into feeling that they have some obligation to put up with what offends them because it is discriminatory speech. Your HR people should lecture you a lot more than they do for your attitude.

kitttty -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/5/2008 8:42:42 PM)
quote: Wrong because you say? That's cute. Interesting that you choose such shaming language based on historical gender perceptions. That's cute, eh? 'Ohhh, is the poor wittle girl gonna cry because the mean old manly man hurt her feewings? awwww.' I wonder how often you choose to dismiss a man's concern or opinion by calling it 'cute'.

Smith117 -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/5/2008 8:49:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kitttty You're not even trying to understand what should be simple. If some white guys make a joke about black people should the black people who the joke was not addressed to just sit and be quiet? Obviously not. The fact that the joke was not addressed to the women does not change the fact that it was said and was inappropriate. You're still ignoring the point of what I've said all along. Comparing racism to two guys sharing weekend stories is just retarded. It's apples and socket wrenches. quote: You said joke, but you meant sexist joke. Women generally are not offended by jokes. There is no need to 'tone down' plain old jokes. You have to tone them down if they are offensive. If they are offensive to women, they are sexist jokes. So, yes did say sexist jokes. You just did not know you implied it. Wow, so not only do you want to be the authority on what is and is not discussed in the workplace, you want to claim knowledge over what a person is thinking? Wow. Just....wow. I said what I meant and I meant what I said. Don't use your insecurities to put words in my mouth, sweetie. You'll lose every time. quote: Is the guy who climbs mount everest just to prove he can insecure? Apparently women motivated by the desire to prove they can are insecure. So, what about everyone else with that motivation? In any case, women generally join careers for reasons such as they want to make money or they want to pursue an interest. But you seem to see women in the workplace asserting themselves as humans as some sort of show of insecurity and desire to prove that they can. The guy who climbed that mountain said he did so because it was there. Not "to prove he could." Try again, sweetie. And I never said anything about women showing insecurity for pursuing an interest. I'm talking about them going into mens' jobs to prove they can, such as the age old women in combat debate, which I'm not even going to get into here because it's just silly. quote: You SUCK. I was waiting for this. Beaten with sheer logic, there's little else to say, is there? Frustrating, isn't it? quote: Women should not feel that they are 'eavsdropping' for not being passive about men propogating SEXIST comments (your jokes and weekend escapade convos are clearly that). Why? Because you say they are? So far, the only one of us who's mentioned sexism is you. Not me. Funny how you still don't see that. quote: Fortunately, there will always be women like me to make sure that women do not feel that they have to sit down and shut up and pretend that sexist comments are not being made. There will be women like me to make sure that men like you can't successfully bully them into feeling that they have some obligation to put up with what offends them because it is discriminatory speech. You mean fortunately women have people like you to overreact and see sexism where none exists. Ahhh such is the mark of feminism.

Smith117 -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/5/2008 8:52:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kitttty quote: Wrong because you say? That's cute. Interesting that you choose such shaming language based on historical gender perceptions. That's cute, eh? 'Ohhh, is the poor wittle girl gonna cry because the mean old manly man hurt her feewings? awwww.' I wonder how often you choose to dismiss a man's concern or opinion by calling it 'cute'. LoL Awww honey. Do I demean you with two little words? DO the teeniest lil words in my post make you feel less good about you? Oh the power you give me. I think I could be quite drunken with such power. Clearly I shouldn't drive right now because I am drunk with power a random strange girl on the internet has given me to have such control over her life as to be hurt and demaned because of the words "that's" and "cute." Just......wow. [sm=applause.gif] Thank you soooo much for proving my earlier point of overreacting.

kitttty -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/5/2008 9:01:07 PM)
quote: Beaten with sheer logic, there's little else to say, is there? Frustrating, isn't it? How can you possibly believe that 1) I was 'beaten' and 2) that your opinions which continuously rely on personal attacks can be called logical? Do you comprehend anything about logic? And do you seriously think that no one ever climbed mt everest to prove that they could?

Smith117 -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/5/2008 9:03:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kitttty quote: Beaten with sheer logic, there's little else to say, is there? Frustrating, isn't it? How can you possibly believe that 1) I was 'beaten' and 2) that your opinions which continuously rely on personal attacks can be called logical? Do you comprehend anything about logic? And do you seriously think that no one ever climbed mt everest to prove that they could? Personal attacks? You mean like saying "You SUCK?" Seems to me you resorted to the attacks long before I did, sweetie.

philosophy -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/5/2008 9:05:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Smith117 LoL Awww honey. Do I demean you with two little words? DO the teeniest lil words in my post make you feel less good about you? Oh the power you give me. I think I could be quite drunken with such power. Clearly I shouldn't drive right now because I am drunk with power a random strange girl on the internet has given me to have such control over her life as to be hurt and demaned because of the words "that's" and "cute." Just......wow. [sm=applause.gif] Thank you soooo much for proving my earlier point of overreacting. ...surely this post is on the wrong thread. The 'All men are jackass type things' is over there >>>>>>>>>>> ......though why a self professed man would want to prove the point is beyond me.

kitttty -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/5/2008 9:06:33 PM)
quote: Just......wow. Thank you soooo much for proving my earlier point of overreacting. You proved quite the opposite. You just proved my point about how you dismiss women's opinions by calling them cute. In this case, you dismissed my opinion not through any argument or logic, but by claiming that the fact that I voiced an opinion contrary to yours was me overreacting. Overreacting, eavsdropping, unable to take a joke- all a bunch of crap designed to dismiss women's concerns without reason and to justify it to yourself.

Smith117 -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/5/2008 9:07:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: philosophy quote: ORIGINAL: Smith117 LoL Awww honey. Do I demean you with two little words? DO the teeniest lil words in my post make you feel less good about you? Oh the power you give me. I think I could be quite drunken with such power. Clearly I shouldn't drive right now because I am drunk with power a random strange girl on the internet has given me to have such control over her life as to be hurt and demaned because of the words "that's" and "cute." Just......wow. [sm=applause.gif] Thank you soooo much for proving my earlier point of overreacting. ...surely this post is on the wrong thread. The 'All men are jackass type things' is over there >>>>>>>>>>> ......though why a self professed man would want to prove the point is beyond me. Oh I know where that thread is. I was one of the first assholes to post in it. I know fully well what I am. Apparently not bowing to feminist control and not caring what others think of me makes me an asshole, so it's a mark I wear with pride.

kitttty -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/5/2008 9:08:00 PM)
quote: "You SUCK?" Yeah, you do. but I just said so as an independant statement- I did not use it to buttress any argument in lieu of logic, which is what you do.

Smith117 -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/5/2008 9:11:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kitttty quote: Just......wow. Thank you soooo much for proving my earlier point of overreacting. You proved quite the opposite. You just proved my point about how you dismiss women's opinions by calling them cute. In this case, you dismissed my opinion not through any argument or logic, but by claiming that the fact that I voiced an opinion contrary to yours was me overreacting. Overreacting, eavsdropping, unable to take a joke- all a bunch of crap designed to dismiss women's concerns without reason and to justify it to yourself. Sweetie listen.....I've defeated you on every logical turn on every single post. I can't make you see the logic, but then that's a problem that's faced men while relating to women throughout time. It's not going to change tonight. Apparently, you only READ what I say when I use a tone that you find condescending or demeaning. You've already used your own mind and insecurities to inject sexism as the point of my original reply so no amount of logic from me is going to change that.

Smith117 -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/5/2008 9:13:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kitttty quote: "You SUCK?" Yeah, you do. but I just said so as an independant statement- I did not use it to buttress any argument in lieu of logic, which is what you do. Oh sweetie. Just re-read back through all of our discussion so far. I've not insulted or attacked you once. And still you can't see that. A shame.

philosophy -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/5/2008 9:13:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Smith117 Oh I know where that thread is. I was one of the first assholes to post in it. I know fully well what I am. Apparently not bowing to feminist control and not caring what others think of me makes me an asshole, so it's a mark I wear with pride. ...you may well be an asshole, or an arsehole or, indeed, any other sort of hole full of shit. However, you are also a jackass.......now wear that with pride if you like, but thats not a million miles away from any other sort of idiot being proud of being an idiot. You see, it's not your anti-feminist views that make you an arsehole......it's your inability to write a rebuttal without being condescending and rude. So go ahead, revel in your pride in being a jackass, you have my permission. Cutie. [;)]

Smith117 -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/5/2008 9:15:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: philosophy quote: ORIGINAL: Smith117 Oh I know where that thread is. I was one of the first assholes to post in it. I know fully well what I am. Apparently not bowing to feminist control and not caring what others think of me makes me an asshole, so it's a mark I wear with pride. ...you may well be an asshole, or an arsehole or, indeed, any other sort of hole full of shit. However, you are also a jackass.......now wear that with pride if you like, but thats not a million miles away from any other sort of idiot being proud of being an idiot. You see, it's not your anti-feminist views that make you an arsehole......it's your inability to write a rebuttal without being condescending and rude. So go ahead, revel in your pride in being a jackass, you have my permission. Cutie. [;)] You're funny. Too bad you don't notice that the condescending posts only started about two posts ago. There were many before that, which I already addressed to the other girl. I guess, like her, you just see what you want and leave the rest by the wayside huh?

kitttty -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/5/2008 9:16:20 PM)
quote: I've defeated you on every logical turn on every single post. If you believe this, then I thank you for doing your small part in showing how men are indeed not the more logical sex. Some even have no concept of what logical coherency is.

Smith117 -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/5/2008 9:20:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kitttty quote: I've defeated you on every logical turn on every single post. If you believe this, then I thank you for doing your small part in showing how men are indeed not the more logical sex. Some even have no concept of what logical coherency is. Sweetie, I've lead the proverbial horse to the proverbial water. But I can't make it drink. And on that note, I have much more important things to do than try and teach logic to you. Later. [sm=horse.gif]

MissSCD -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/5/2008 9:29:51 PM)
*I am proud of the progress women have made in our society today regardless if we are called Feminists are not.* *I don't really see myself as a Feminist, but rather one who believes in equality for all regardless or race, gender, etc.* Young people today have been protected in my opinin. I do not have children, but notice that a lot of parents over spoil and allow to much freedom for their children to go out and live as they choose. *So, on that note, I am seeing young girls become pregnant out of wedlock, go on welfare, and try to give their children a chance at life when they are only children themselves.* *That my friend is not feminisim.* *Of course they don't recall any people fighting for rights.* *That is my two cents on the issue.* *Regards, MissSCD*

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