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ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

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ORIGINAL: Shawn1066

Which is unfair because there's no Fatherhood Penalty that I'm currently aware of.(Though I could be wrong)

In general, the "Fatherhood Penalty" is an earlier death than women.

Firm

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ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

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ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama

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ORIGINAL: Aswad
We're born as blank slates. Unless you reject that, you must cede that there are formative influences that cause misogyny.

I agree entirely. 

Both you and Aswad are firmly on the "nurture" side of the "nature versus nurture" debate?

Perhaps I'm misreading, or missing your true meaning, or perhaps you are talking only about certain aspects of human infants being "blank slates", so ... please, if either of you will, enlighten me.

To me, it appears to be illogical to claim that human's are born "blank slates" and then attempt to make the argument that certain functions and intellectual areas (such as language) are "hard-wired".

Firm

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ORIGINAL: Shawn1066

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ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

~FR~

There was an economist that recently wrote a book, that was on the one of the news shows recently. He mentioned that looking at the male and females, that the disparity in pay often coincided with the fact many females had to take more time off due to family matters (having babies, kids sick, etc.).

Yes, but males who take time off for similar reasons don't have similar results...  There are men who take off just as much as women do to help with the children, and they don't suffer a disparity in pay.

Just what I've read.

Anywho.  I'm a feminist.  A Conservative, southern, white male feminist.  Those really can all go together.

DV's Fox

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ORIGINAL: Shawn1066

Which is unfair because there's no Fatherhood Penalty that I'm currently aware of.(Though I could be wrong)

Now, there are certain professions where women make more money than men, by and large, and this is wrong as well.

DV's Fox

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ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

What does it mean to be a feminist?  It means that women are entitled to equal pay for equal work.  It means that women should have the same educational opportunities as men.  It means that a person's genitalia should not dictate her--or his--entire future.  It means that women should not have to tolerate sexual harassment, and NOT because it might cause a lawsuit.  It means that women are deserving of the same respect as men. 

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ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Why is it unfair, if a worker works less time then they should get less pay. This should be regardless of sex, but Men rarely take off alot of time when a child is born, at least according to the economist on HNN that I am refering to. Also, if an individual produces better results, they should get more money, but much of that does not occur for fear of discrimination claims.

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Take an all male workplace, look how the men interact. They joke, they make comments, they rib each other. Add a woman into the mix and suddenly the men have to "clean up their act." Not only do they have to treat the new staff member with kid gloves, they can't even make the same jokes they normally would, even if they in no way pertain to the new staff member.

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ORIGINAL: kitttty

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Take an all male workplace, look how the men interact. They joke, they make comments, they rib each other. Add a woman into the mix and suddenly the men have to "clean up their act." Not only do they have to treat the new staff member with kid gloves, they can't even make the same jokes they normally would, even if they in no way pertain to the new staff member.

What about an all white workplace- I guess the white guys get to make jokes about nigs until one day a black co worker shows up.

Or how about getting to make fun of the mentally disabled until one of your co workers has a child with a disability.

...Oh wait- it's *never* appropriate to make fun of blacks or the disabled. Just women.

Anything that you can't do when that woman is not around is something you shouldn't be doing anyways. Women should not feel pressured to be one of the guys and roll with jokes that are offensive to our gender. It's the men who have to change and that is equality. It's not about pretending to be one of the cro magnon like sexist pigs of guys. It's about being treated with the basic respect that should be accorded to us.

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What about an all white workplace- I guess the white guys get to make jokes about nigs until one day a black co worker shows up.

Or how about getting to make fun of the mentally disabled until one of your co workers has a child with a disability.

...Oh wait- it's *never* appropriate to make fun of blacks or the disabled. Just women.

Anything that you can't do when that woman is not around is something you shouldn't be doing anyways. Women should not feel pressured to be one of the guys and roll with jokes that are offensive to our gender. It's the men who have to change and that is equality. It's not about pretending to be one of the cro magnon like sexist pigs of guys. It's about being treated with the basic respect that should be accorded to us.

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Now, it's clearly sad that it is so. The women who believe things should be as they are in fundamentalist countries in the Middle East, for instance, are more numerous than those who believe things should be more like they are in the West. And I deem that to be bad taste on their part. But I still respect that stripping the majority of the right to choose, in favor of the minority, is nothing but another form of oppression, regardless of how well-intentioned it is. If one wants to do so, fine. Conquer. Rule. But don't call it liberation.

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You hold it to be good to impose your will on others; I hold that to be the definition of oppression.

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So some of these jobs who were "boys' clubs" are being forced to alter how they speak, act, behave, SIMPLY AND ONLY because there's no a woman present. That is NOT equal.

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ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
Both you and Aswad are firmly on the "nurture" side of the "nature versus nurture" debate?

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ORIGINAL: kitttty

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So some of these jobs who were "boys' clubs" are being forced to alter how they speak, act, behave, SIMPLY AND ONLY because there's no a woman present. That is NOT equal.

Yes it is. The fact that they can't act the same around women does not imply inequality. It implies that the guys act in a sexist and offensive way and that they know it and know to hide it.

The guys were acting in a way that promotes discrimination. The way they act when a woman is around is ideally how they should always act. Then there would be no discrepancy between what you do when a woman is around and when one is not and there would be no need to clean up the act. That would be actual equality.

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And who exactly are women to decide how men should act?

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That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. So you want men to watch what they say and do not only when you're there, but also when you're not? Give me a break. Women are not the authority on mens' behavior. And to come into their workplace and demand they change themselves because of YOU is not equal. YOU assimilate into the workplace, do NOT make the workplace change to accomodate you. Then perhaps you won't have to tolerate hearing women called the 'weaker sex."

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ORIGINAL: kitttty

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So some of these jobs who were "boys' clubs" are being forced to alter how they speak, act, behave, SIMPLY AND ONLY because there's no a woman present. That is NOT equal.

Yes it is. The fact that they can't act the same around women does not imply inequality. It implies that the guys act in a sexist and offensive way and that they know it and know to hide it.

The guys were acting in a way that promotes discrimination. The way they act when a woman is around is ideally how they should always act. Then there would be no discrepancy between what you do when a woman is around and when one is not and there would be no need to clean up the act. That would be actual equality.

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Granted this does make sense, yet I have to wonder if the opposite situation occurs if the equality is still being applied? I am referring to a segment of the female gender who in some situations will speak in a manner which is considered "sailor talk" yet when a man enters the scene, they often clean up their language because of this. How I see is equality has to be a two way street.

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Half the fucking world. Who were black people to 'decide' how white people should act? That was called the civil rights movement.

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Why? Why should women tolerate the norms of the workplace which were handed down from generations of sexist society? Because the sexism was there first?

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And what the hell is this dichotomy- women are not the authority of men? Well, we shouldn't have to be. Some men should step up the plate and tell their peers to stop being sexist when women aren't there. Men should understand themselves why it is wrong to be sexist and act boorish.

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Who are you to tell women that they should shut up and assimilate? If women want to voice their reservations and sense of being disrespected then that's exactly what they should do. Change happens when you make it. If you don't like it, too bad.

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And shame on you for making women who are the butt of sexism in the workplace seem like they should sack up and put their big girl panties on. Um no. How about they make the people who are acting in offensive way change.

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ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

Boy, I miss not being able to get to this site during the workday/night!

In answer to various things.....

Dusty, women like you and I are rarities, in that we stand up for ouselves.  That we do it graciously and discreetly is even more unusual, but I think speaks to our age and upbringing.  Looking back, I know that I was subjected to what would be considered lawsuit level sexual harassment now, but at the time was just harmless behavior on the part of my boss. Yes, he was inappropriate, but I was never endangered, and no boundaries were crossed.  My reactions to his flirtations were what assured that. 

Regarding the whole "one of the boys" analogy and how men are supposed to be all nicey nice when the gals are around....hogwash!    Joking around is not an issue for me at all, though I admit freely that some behavior IS very offensive to me.  I would venture a guess that open cursing and racist remarks aren't accepted in ANY professional workplace, regardless of the gender of those working.   It is possible to laugh, joke, have fun, all without being an utter jackass.  It also means that a woman who wants to share a joke of her own is not less of  person, either.  (and yes, Bear, I DO try to be more ladylike around men!)

Want a pinup calendar?  Excellent!  I love pinups--just look at my profile pic!  My mother and I were both appalled when those absurd rulings started to come down restricting calendars.  But that sort of thing is not a part of feminism, it is a part of POLITICAL CORRECTNESS, a movement that I do not espouse. 

Equality of pay, parity of benefits, does not mean that we are all the SAME, it means that we are all on a level playing field.