RE: I am a feminist.

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Owner59 -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/3/2008 6:43:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: gorgeous1 Just an observation: I get more disdain from females rather than males about my choice to stay at home. Most of the females who make snide and cutting remarks are women in their 50's and 60's. I have more women who assume that my IQ has dropped a point each year I have spent changing diapers. Most of the men who ask me "what I do" compliment me for my choice to stay home. Maybe they're being sincere, or maybe they're just parroting what is politically correct- either way I don't care. I have also had several women who work outside the home confess to me that they COULDN'T stay home- they'd go nuts. I have had some women COMPLETELY BULLSHIT me and say, "Oh, you're sooooo lucky, I'd totally stay home but we can't afford it." They say this as they are standing next to their 2008 SUV, $300 jeans, botox, manicure, their kids are in Baby Gap...you know- the whole package. I feel like saying, "You mean, you're not willing to make material sacrifices to stay home." I'm not judging those who feel they need these things to be happy- that's their choice, but don't confuse wants with needs. I don't have everything I want, but I get everything I need, and we have made tremendous sacrifices to live off of one income. So...what do those of you who consider yourself a feminist REALLY think of my choice to stay home? Anyone who thinks that the majority of American women who work,are working 40 hours a week(or more) just to have 300 dollar jeans is not living in the real world. The majority of 2 working-parent families,(w/ many parents working 2 and 3 jobs) are doing so just to survive and to make ends meet. Many aren`t even able to do that.

kitttty -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/3/2008 6:48:41 PM)
quote: I have had some women COMPLETELY BULLSHIT me and say, "Oh, you're sooooo lucky, I'd totally stay home but we can't afford it." They say this as they are standing next to their 2008 SUV, $300 jeans, botox, manicure, their kids are in Baby Gap...you know- the whole package. I feel like saying, "You mean, you're not willing to make material sacrifices to stay home." I'm not judging those who feel they need these things to be happy- that's their choice, but don't confuse wants with needs. I don't have everything I want, but I get everything I need, and we have made tremendous sacrifices to live off of one income. Owner, is totally right on this. Why do so many SAHMs parrot this line about how they don't need a big screen TV like the jonses do- as if that does not imply that working mothers are avoiding taking care of their own kids in order to buy random material crap! That is exactly what I'm saying about SAHMs being more vicious on the SAHM vs. working mother issue than vice versa.

fluffyswitch -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/3/2008 6:50:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus I am a feminist. Until recently, I thought that most other women were as well, but many women here declare proudly that they are NOT. After my head stopped exploding, I decided that I might as well ask... are you a feminist? And if not, WHAT are you? i don't really feel like reading the whole thread but yes. i identify as a proporn/anticensorship prokink proqueer liberal/choices feminist. my problem with antiporn is that to me it strikes me as trying to 'clean up' sexuality to fit its own little boxes and too bad if you happen to be say sadomasochistic (and not to start a debate but yes i have actually done reading on both sides of the argument). prokink and proqueer are obvious, and choices in that what works for me isn't necessarily be best for you but that doesn't mean i shouldn't be able to access those choices in an attempt to create equality i think there can be a common ground agreed upon.

Level -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/3/2008 6:54:09 PM)
quote: Oh, horseshit. I'm sorry, but I am so tired of male rhetoric about how much "damage" liberated women do by pointing out male privilege that, seriously--I could hurl. When "liberation" takes freedom away from others, then that certainly is horseshit. quote: 1. Take as a given the following: NO WOMAN, no matter how insane, does as much damage to women as male misogynists do. With the possible exception of Elizabeth Bathory. And she was a very special girl. I did make an overstatement, but the idiocy I was talking about DOES do damage to women. quote: 2. Take as given also: the world would benefit greatly if the number of female orgasms depicted in pornorgraphy were massively increased. Yes, I can see how that would stop global warming and such.... [;)] Kidding aside, there is nothing wrong with showing women's orgasms. But there is something wrong with banning the alternative. Th quote: e notion that female sexual desire and pleasure are inferior to and less important than male sexual desire and satisfaction, to the point that films depicting "normal" sex normally do not include them at all, is an incredibly poisonous and evil thing. Are there a lot of films doing that? I don't remember many were the woman layed there like an automaton. quote: You want to hate women, lash out at them or stand in the way of equal rights and equal representation--go nuts. But stop blaming them for it. That wife-beating mentality doesn't fly. I'll assume that the "you" wasn't directly meaning me. [;)]

ShaktiSama -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/3/2008 6:56:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad Outlawing gay porn hardly seems like a step in the right direction. [:D] Lol! An excellent point. But there would be some amusement value in the ways that gay porn films would find to get around the law, I'm sure. [:D]

fluffyswitch -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/3/2008 6:57:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Level Th quote: e notion that female sexual desire and pleasure are inferior to and less important than male sexual desire and satisfaction, to the point that films depicting "normal" sex normally do not include them at all, is an incredibly poisonous and evil thing. Are there a lot of films doing that? I don't remember many were the woman layed there like an automaton. they don't lay there like an automaton but a lot of them do make it look like female pleasure is secondary to a man's and priviledge male pleasure. women's pleasure often is either extremely overemphasized for a supposedly male viewer or not taken into account at all. there's been numberous studies discussing this position but i'm not at home so i can't get into my citation lists. and before anyone gets wound up, i am actually pro porn lol...

Aswad -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/3/2008 7:06:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama Lol! An excellent point. But there would be some amusement value in the ways that gay porn films would find to get around the law, I'm sure. [:D] Sure. I just don't see that it's more respectful to women to have one sitting in the background masturbating, just to slip it by the law. After all, that would make her not just an object in the context of the movie, but an uninteresting, irrelevant and superfluous one. Besides which, some of us have a kink for objectification, and that definitely includes some women; why deny that? That said, yeah, there would be some amusement value. [:D] Health, al-Aswad.

amelliagrace -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/3/2008 7:06:49 PM)
*FR-* *Wow! I can't believe I actually read a lot of this dung. That certainly removes any doubt as to whether or not I have masochistic tendencies.* This whole sexist issue is fairly easily solved, ya know. Just take all the radical feminists and their male counterparts and sterilize them (heaven help the rest of the human race if they keep reproducing), then put them in chains and ship them off to hard labor camps......together...coed...life, without parole. We could take bets on who's goona be the last one standing, and use the money to pay off the national debt. Then these rabid barbarians of both sexes could at least die knowing they served a useful purpose. *Yeah, I'm a bitch, but at least I have a brain to go with my bitching.* *I now return you to your scat-feast, already in progress.* *Grace*

Owner59 -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/3/2008 7:07:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 I've seen women complain because a three pack of condoms costs less than a 12 pack of tampons and this is clearly male oppression. That`s your complaint? So called feminists griping about tampon prices,seems low on the importance scale. Condoms are for women also,btw. That's my point! Women were complaining that 12 tampons cost more than 3 tampons and (pay attention) that means that men are oppressing women - completely ignoring that women need condoms too! Screw being happy that women can get condoms cheaply, or for free, and have sex without worrying about making babies - the fact that I have to pay for my tampons is clear male oppression! quote: That freedom though,AquaticSub,doesn`t mean you`re exempt from getting flack over your choices. Freedom of choice doesn`t mean freedom from being flamed. Well duh but this isn't about freedom of choice. It's about feminism and feminism is about being helping women make the choices that are right for them, not imposing new artificial roles on women. If those complaints are all that you suffer,then you`re doing just fine. My ex used to get(all the time)un-welcome flirts,un-wanted touching and pressure from some of her employers.It would usually end with her quiting or getting fired for not playing nicie-nice. Why the fuck is it the victims are the one who suffer(pay attention) ,and not the fuck`n restaurant owners? Men fucking own the world and some think they own you. Is there anything more gross or disgusting then an ass hole creep, who thinks and acts like he owns you? Given a choice between tampon complaints and sexual harassment,I`ll take the tampon complaints.

Alumbrado -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/3/2008 7:08:31 PM)
quote: *Yeah, I'm a bitch, but at least I have a brain to go with my bitching.* You have a brain that thinks women should be denied the best medical treatment, and not allowed to defend themselves against abusers? [8\|]

Level -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/3/2008 7:09:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: fluffyswitch quote: ORIGINAL: Level Th quote: e notion that female sexual desire and pleasure are inferior to and less important than male sexual desire and satisfaction, to the point that films depicting "normal" sex normally do not include them at all, is an incredibly poisonous and evil thing. Are there a lot of films doing that? I don't remember many were the woman layed there like an automaton. they don't lay there like an automaton but a lot of them do make it look like female pleasure is secondary to a man's and priviledge male pleasure. women's pleasure often is either extremely overemphasized for a supposedly male viewer or not taken into account at all. there's been numberous studies discussing this position but i'm not at home so i can't get into my citation lists. and before anyone gets wound up, i am actually pro porn lol... Okay. I'll ask you: would you ban porn that did not reflect a woman having pleasure? A silly question, perhaps. But no less silly than those that try to make things "right" by doing wrong.

LadyHibiscus -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/3/2008 7:09:50 PM)
Well, thank you everyone for your posts! I'm glad to see that I fostered some discussion. :) Someone (sorry, I forgot your SN) asked about my dad's role at home, and I want to address Dusty's post as well. I am from an immigrant family. We have that whole work ethic thing happening, and working is just how it is. My mom, the queen of type A personalities, was often up into the middle of the night doing glam things like waxing the floor, before crashing for a few hours to go to work. She mowed the lawn, too, because she preferred the job she did of it. My dad did PLENTY to hold up his end. We are an automotive family (is IS Detroit around here!) and our father-daughter activities were things like changing the windshield, and buying oil. Do I know how to change tires? You bet! I can also fix minor plumbing, and wire electrical outlets. Thanks, Dad! No one ever told me (at home) that I couldn't accomplish pretty much anything. I was in the 99th percentile of everything, why the hell not? The smartest girl in the room doesn't get held back. She DOES have to display a much higher standard, though. I remember in 1981, I was at a Society of Automotive Engineers conference. My two friends and I were essentially the only female engineering students in a VERY large room. In order to succeed in that profession, I would have had to be stratospherically brilliant, while a male student would have gotten hired on a just okay academic record. Now I am a CPA, another male dominated field, which is struggling with dealing with and adapting to the needs of modern society. Dusty, if you never felt discriminated against, what can I say but good for you! I am happy for your blessed life, and you know I mean that without irony. I certainly can't claim to feel oppressed in all arenas myself! In spite of that, I could see what was happening around me. I suspect that it was and is because I am a freak and an outsider, and as an outsider, I see the others on the outside, and it makes me angry when there is nothing I can do for them. Brava on the commentary on control over our bodies!! I preach that one a LOT. Gorgeous, congratulations on staying home with your kids! I have always felt that kids should be raised by their families. I was lucky to have an extended family to watch me while my parents were working. However, please do not trivialize the concept of equal work for equal pay by saying "the man is the breadwinner". Plenty of single moms out there will disagree with you. Please keep talking, thanks for the validation, and the areas of new thought!

kittinSol -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/3/2008 7:10:03 PM)
General reply, to nobody in particular. Were it not for feminism we would still be crawling in the dark ages of the patriarchy. We would still be cattle under the thumbs of our fathers/husbands/tutors. Our children would belong to their fathers. If we had to work for a living, pushing trolleys down a mine, we would earn a fraction of what men earned (see Germinal - Zola). If we were bourgeois enough that we were married off to a man who could sustain us, we would die in existential angst (see A Doll's House - Ibsen). We would have no say in who conducted the political affairs of the society we lived in (see: French women obtained the right to vote in 1945). We would be shunned and ostracised for having children outside of wedlock. The fruits of our labour would rarely be our own (see: my mother needed my father's authorisation to open a bank account in 1968). Drown me in a sea of protest if you like: but I affirm that the reason we can play at D/s and all these other fun things is because we can choose to. A century ago, it would have been no fun at all to pretend to be... what we were. Aswad, what I tried to say in my previous post was that so far, the majority of the women in power are highly capable individuals in comparison to their male peers. When most of the women in power are as incapable as most of the men in power, only then will feminism have achieved one of its goal: equality of opportunity. Forgive me for not having clarified earlier: I had gone to iron my husband's shirts [8D] . LadyHibiscus, you beat me to it, so I quote you below for good measure. You wrote your post as I was musing over mine :-) . quote: ORIGINAL LadyHibiscus I remember in 1981, I was at a Society of Automotive Engineers conference. My two friends and I were essentially the only female engineering students in a VERY large room. In order to succeed in that profession, I would have had to be stratospherically brilliant, while a male student would have gotten hired on a just okay academic record. Now I am a CPA, another male dominated field, which is struggling with dealing with and adapting to the needs of modern society.

Aswad -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/3/2008 7:14:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: fluffyswitch they don't lay there like an automaton but a lot of them do make it look like female pleasure is secondary to a man's and priviledge male pleasure. women's pleasure often is either extremely overemphasized for a supposedly male viewer or not taken into account at all. there's been numberous studies discussing this position but i'm not at home so i can't get into my citation lists. In my experience, laying there like an automaton would be an improvement over mainstream porn. [:D] When I feel like watching some, I inevitably turn it off again; the male acting is usually pretty tragic, too. "I'll huff, puff and blow your house down... amid grunting, inane comments and sounds no man makes without getting paid." Jeez... if I didn't already have E.D., most mainstream porn would inflict it instantaneously. [8\|] That said, I fully support people's right to bad taste, regardless of gender. [:D] Health, al-Aswad.

AquaticSub -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/3/2008 7:17:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 If those complaints are all that you suffer,then you`re doing just fine. My ex used to get(all the time)un-welcome flirts,un-wanted touching and pressure from some of her employers.It would usually end with her quiting or getting fired for not playing nicie-nice. Why the fuck is it the victims are the one who suffer(pay attention) ,and not the fuck`n restaurant owners? Men fucking own the world and some think they own you. Is there anything more gross or disgusting then an ass hole creep, who thinks and acts like he owns you? Given a choice between tampon complaints and sexual harassment,I`ll take the tampon complaints. Ugh, are you not getting it at all? I'm not saying feminism is a bad thing. I'm saying that there are feminists who take it too far. I have already quoted a very well accepted feminist who defined radical feminists. And yes for that matter I have been molested and no I didn't enjoy it. That doesn't mean I have to agree with every woman who calls herself a feminist.

Aswad -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/3/2008 7:19:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado You have a brain that thinks women should be denied the best medical treatment, and not allowed to defend themselves against abusers? [8\|] Why do you feel a need to assume that she referred to all women's rights stuff, and not just some opinions she disagreed with here? Hanlon's Razor readily generalizes to a more useful notion of simply assuming intentions were reasonable. Makes for significantly more pleasant interactions online and offline. Health, al-Aswad.

amelliagrace -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/3/2008 7:20:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado quote: *Yeah, I'm a bitch, but at least I have a brain to go with my bitching.* You have a brain that thinks women should be denied the best medical treatment, and not allowed to defend themselves against abusers? [8\|] *You might want to go back and read for comprehension. That is quite a foundationless quantum leap to the wrong conclusion.* *Grace*

Alumbrado -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/3/2008 7:23:09 PM)
quote: Why do you feel a need to assume that she referred to all women's rights stuff, and not just some opinions she disagreed with here? Perhaps because she specified the radical feminists from within the previous posts she claimed to have read and those radical feminists had repeatedly been distinguished by name and by work as the force behind improved women's health research and legal breakthroughs?

amelliagrace -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/3/2008 7:25:56 PM)
*Note that I also mentioned the radical feminists male counterparts. Without both extremes there woul be greater sanity and stability. Feel free to have the last word.* *Enjoy. I'm going to go take a shower and remove the stench of this thread.* *Grace*

Owner59 -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/3/2008 7:28:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 If those complaints are all that you suffer,then you`re doing just fine. My ex used to get(all the time)un-welcome flirts,un-wanted touching and pressure from some of her employers.It would usually end with her quiting or getting fired for not playing nicie-nice. Why the fuck is it the victims are the one who suffer(pay attention) ,and not the fuck`n restaurant owners? Men fucking own the world and some think they own you. Is there anything more gross or disgusting then an ass hole creep, who thinks and acts like he owns you? Given a choice between tampon complaints and sexual harassment,I`ll take the tampon complaints. Ugh, are you not getting it at all? I'm not saying feminism is a bad thing. I'm saying that there are feminists who take it too far. I have already quoted a very well accepted feminist who defined radical feminists. And yes for that matter I have been molested and no I didn't enjoy it. That doesn't mean I have to agree with every woman who calls herself a feminist. I see your points,AquaticSub. Are you sure that they were feminists complaining about a perceived unfairness and not just some woman being affected by "that time of the month"? [:D]

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