RE: I am a feminist. (Full Version)

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AquaticSub -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/3/2008 5:04:16 PM)

My point of view is that he was saying that that is how a lot of young people are defining the term and being of his generation and currently in college, I rather agree with him. Sadly, radical feminists have pushed a lot of younger women and men away from the term.

It may not deserve focus, but it needs to be aknowledged and not mocked when it comes up. Further mocking of those who have suffered the scorn of the ultra-feminist simply pushes people away further.



CuriousLord -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/3/2008 5:07:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

I'm not ignoring them, I'm disagreeing with CL's claim that the college world defines feminism to mean female supremacy.

It would be no different than if he claimed that minority studies today were seen at the college level as guys with Afros wanting to sleep with white chicks... its outdated and incomplete.


My point is that "feminist" typically sounds as like "female supremacist" to someone my age.  That those of us who believe in equal rights don't give it specific name.. that it's just normal.  I'm not giving it some academic definition, just the usage by those of us here in college.



Aswad -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/3/2008 5:08:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

I'm half tempted to hunt down my books from my feminism class to cite the part about the "women should rule the world" school of feminist thought.


Christina Hoff Summers uses the term "gender feminism", in opposition to "equity feminism".

Quoting WP on the matter:
"Hoff Sommers considers this as gynocentrism and misandry that she feels is dominant in the contemporary feminist movement."

Health,
al-Aswad.



Aswad -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/3/2008 5:10:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aynne

Feminist, liberal, submissive     They are not mutually exclusive not should they be.  I am all three and fully aware of the issue some weaker men may have with those terms.


Kudos to you. And I quite agree.
The main feminist organization in Norway does not.
A stated goal of theirs a few years back was to abolish BDSM, particularly between lesbians.

Health,
al-Aswad.



gorgeous1 -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/3/2008 5:11:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

From "Sexism and God-Talk" by Rosemary Radford Ruether on radical feminism, p. 228 (BTW, try to tell me that Ruether hasn't been peer reviewed...):


For many, the logic of this position leads to lesbian separatism. Women can't be liberated from patriachy until they are liberated from men. Women need to see the community of women as their primary base. Women bonding together both in love relationships and for pirmary support, together with their (female?) children, is women's base and identitiy. It is on this base that feminism needs to build an alternative women's world. Women must question not only the idealogies of sexism but of heteroseism, that is, the basic assumption that men and women are naturally attracted to each other sexually and that male-female couples are necessary for human females.

In feminist utopian novels, ranging from Charlotte Perkins Gilman's Herland (1915) toSally Gearhart's Wanderground, we have visions of a world of women liberated from men. Men are seen in these novels as alien to women, as creatures in some way fundamental way inhuman. They are characterized by aggressive sexuality and domineering attitudes towards woman and nature. Theirs is literally a "rape culture." In the feminist utopia, a select community of women have escaped from male control. Key to this is a recovery of love between women and, with it, the ability to reproduce independent of men.



That's horrible! I can't believe they're shoving this pap down people's throats still. I got a C in my Women's Studies class not because I didn't show up for class, do my assignments, and study for my tests. The psycho bitch teacher gave me bad grades because I had a difference of opinion and I DARED to voice it. Some of these fringe extremists do not allow anyone to think differently or be an individual who is comfortable and at ease with being a woman- no they want zombies who will march in lock-step, castration kit in tow.

I was so incredibly disappointed in my Women's Studies class. I guess I was expecting something different. I thought I was signing up for a class that would celebrate those females in history who went against the norm, and that perhaps I would learn about some obscure female figures, but instead it was a huge man-bashing session. On the last day of class I told the professor, "I thought I was coming here to learn about intelligent women, not stupid men." She didn't like that. [8|]



AquaticSub -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/3/2008 5:13:36 PM)

It really wasn't bad. Ruether is just talking about a branch of feminism that does exist. We studied the different schools of thought, the one that puts women on this pillar and we are somehow "better" than men as all these domestic things, the one that thinks women should rule and the one that just wants things to be equal damn it.

I learned a lot in the class and I enjoyed it.



CuriousLord -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/3/2008 5:17:17 PM)

Edit:  Messaged on the other side (since it's a bit off topic).



Aswad -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/3/2008 5:21:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

My point of view is that he was saying that that is how a lot of young people are defining the term and being of his generation and currently in college, I rather agree with him. Sadly, radical feminists have pushed a lot of younger women and men away from the term.


Quite. As he said, people who believe in it up here (like me) don't call it anything. It's the default. Which was the point, one hopes. But the word "feminism" has a different meaning in colloquial use here, which is most frequently either fringe radical feminism or just female supremacy. Among the younger generation, that's the only use of the term.

But I'm not sure I'd say that's sad. Shouldn't it be the goal for it to become natural?

Language evolves over time, much to the dismay of those who like static definitions in dictionaries, and the word is redundant to most of the younger generations around here. It conveys nothing. To not be feminist is denoted as being misogynistic. To be feminist is not denoted at all, as it is just "how things are." So the remaining use for the word becomes to denote the radical fringe, who aren't at all in favor of equality, and certainly not in favor of womens' rights to choose, but rather a sort of secular cult with a doctrine of incrementally approaching female supremacy. That's what the word communicates here.

Health,
al-Aswad.




Alumbrado -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/3/2008 5:21:43 PM)

quote:

My point of view is that he was saying that that is how a lot of young people are defining the term and being of his generation and currently in college, I rather agree with him. Sadly, radical feminists have pushed a lot of younger women and men away from the term.


Now that I can accept, since it shifts the burden for the populist opinon onto a larger group, only some of whom may be in some version of college  (5th year in 14th grade or 35th year teaching 60/70's agitprop[;)]).



Level -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/3/2008 5:22:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wildfleurs

I'm a feminist and unashamed to be a feminist, despite the ways that people may try to twist and turn the meaning.  Because I think feminism is a very large (and amorphous category) I tend to more specifically describe myself as a Camille Paglia school of thought feminist.

C~



I tend to like Paglia (and Nadine Strossen, and Christina Hoff Sommers).
 
The Dworkins and MacKinnons and Allreds  [image]http://forum.lowcarber.org/images/smilies/puke.gif[/image]



kitttty -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/3/2008 5:27:40 PM)

I am a feminist. The Betty Friedan to Gloria Steinem variety- old school.

I am 25 yrs old now, but women should not forget what they said.

I do however believe in biological tendencies that have some influence over the behavior of men and women as groups (but not as individuals). And still, I am the old school kind of feminist.



Alumbrado -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/3/2008 5:31:10 PM)

Dworkin would declare this forum and the lifestyle in general to be anti-feminist...why are you here?



gorgeous1 -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/3/2008 5:31:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

It really wasn't bad. Ruether is just talking about a branch of feminism that does exist. We studied the different schools of thought, the one that puts women on this pillar and we are somehow "better" than men as all these domestic things, the one that thinks women should rule and the one that just wants things to be equal damn it.

I learned a lot in the class and I enjoyed it.



Well, where does all this hatred and acrimony come from? I just don't understand what drives some people to hate so violently that they want to actually separate themselves from others just because they have a penis.




kitttty -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/3/2008 5:33:28 PM)

edit: this is in reply to alumbrado

quote:

Dworkin would declare this forum and the lifestyle in general to be anti-feminist...why are you here?


Is this to me?

I am aware that Steinem endorsed Dworkin, but I do not agree with much of Dworkin's perspective. Her school of feminism is exactly where old school ends and where I start to disagree.




ShaktiSama -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/3/2008 5:34:20 PM)

I am a feminist.  And I am a Femme Domme feminist, specifically.

I am well aware that the backlash against the Women's Movement is very strong in my country, and that generations of women have been carefully brainwashed to believe that a woman who desires equality or empowerment for herself and other women is by definition a "man hater".  This is bullshit, and part of a carefully orchestrated backlash against the Equal Rights movement which is now culminating in a series of laws to rescind a woman's right to a safe and legal abortion.

I am a proponent of equal rights both in the vanilla world of social interaction and politics AND in the world of BDSM.  I suppose you could call it "Equal Dominance", if you like.  I have noticed to my dismay that male sexual desire for dominance and female sexual desire for submission are privileged and glorified in my society, including its BDSM community--while similar desires for power and control in women or submission in men are demonized and denigrated at every opportunity.

This is not a good thing, in my opinion.

So far as my personal life goes:  I take special pleasure and joy in being one of very few women ever to venture into certain male-dominated creative professions, including erotic photography.  I am a very strong proponent of women becoming involved in the production of all art forms, but especially erotic ones--expressing erotic feelings and desires should NOT be yet another male privilege, while women serve only as objects and never subjects.

I always try to promote the work of women who produce erotic art, especially film and photography, but including websites and other literary venues.  Visions of authentic  female pleasure and power are extremely rare in modern pornography--even the majority of female-dominant pornography is produced by men, for men, and is both degrading and insulting to women.  I would point to the websites created by many of the female dominants in this forum as wonderful places for submissive men to visit to immerse themselves in the thoughts, feelings and desires of a REAL femme domme, as opposed to wallowing in some ridiculous cliche being passed from one man to another like a baseball card.

I'm a whacky enough feminist that I don't think there should ever be another porno movie made without a real and sincere female orgasm in it.  [:D]

I look forward to many stimulating discussions with you all.

Pax vobiscum!  [:D]



Level -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/3/2008 5:37:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama

I'm a whacky enough feminist that I don't think there should ever be another porno movie made without a real and sincere female orgasm in it.  [:D]


But would  you make that law, if you could?



AquaticSub -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/3/2008 5:39:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gorgeous1


quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

It really wasn't bad. Ruether is just talking about a branch of feminism that does exist. We studied the different schools of thought, the one that puts women on this pillar and we are somehow "better" than men as all these domestic things, the one that thinks women should rule and the one that just wants things to be equal damn it.

I learned a lot in the class and I enjoyed it.



Well, where does all this hatred and acrimony come from? I just don't understand what drives some people to hate so violently that they want to actually separate themselves from others just because they have a penis.




The hatred is only one school of feminist thought. There are many others and, as any good teacher should in my opinion, we touched on many of them as possible.



Alumbrado -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/3/2008 5:40:11 PM)

quote:

I am aware that Steinem endorsed Dworkin, but I do not agree with much of Dworkin's perspective. Her school of feminism is exactly where old school ends and where I start to disagree.


OK, thanks for the clarification...it took me enough posts to get across the distinction that I am a neo-Adlerian-radical-feminist...[;)]



CuriousLord -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/3/2008 5:40:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level
quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama

I'm a whacky enough feminist that I don't think there should ever be another porno movie made without a real and sincere female orgasm in it.  [:D]


But would  you make that law, if you could?


And outlaw every porno ever made?  =/



AquaticSub -> RE: I am a feminist. (2/3/2008 5:42:53 PM)

Personally, I'm a pro-porn feminist. It's my body and you can't tell me what to do with it - including what not to do with it.



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